I thought I'd break my reply in to two replies since Carole's messgae
dealt with Owd Bob and the comparison pictures...

At 10:30 AM +0000 7/22/97, Carole L. Presberg wrote:

>Similarly, the picture you are starting with, is not representative of a
>Border Collie. The reason Border Collies don't work upright is their body
>structure (or rather, their body structure dictates the way they work).
>Their front end is slightly lower than or at least level with their hind
>end. So even when they are standing upright, they don't stand quite THAT
>upright. They are also a long dog, not close coupled. Their ears, even when
>pricked, are not on top of their head but slightly to the sides. And the
>muzzle would be shorter and less square.

        Well, one of the reasons i picked this picture was because it put
the dog at an angle that made ears and stuff sort of hard to pick out. And
because Bob (the picture is supposed to be Bob no matter what he really
was) was standing on a rise I thought it minimized some of the structural
difference/

        My idea with taking one picture was that general basic differences
could be demonstrated. I'd like the BC to have a longer body and like I
said, I wasn't satisfied with the BCs muzzle but this was a first pass. I'm
not sure how to give him a longer body, i don't have very sophisticated
editing tools here.


 >Having said all that, I can't help but wonder how you are going to
>represent breeds such as ours with only one illustration slightly altered.
>The Border Collie comes in a variety of sizes, body types, etc. In my
>household alone, my four BCs represent four different body types, sizes,
>color patterns, working ability and temperament, etc. From reading the
>breed standard and seeing the photos on the ES website, I would guess that
>the ES is similar in it's variations. And I know the AS is too. When we
>begin to see less variation in types, we can think "show dogs". It might
>make it easier to distinguish the three breeds, but it takes away all the
>interest as far as I'm concerned.

        If I could draw I could do a whole page of BCs, ESs, and Aussies.
BCs have the most variations and aussies the least but all three breeds are
pretty much all over the board. I was aiming for "most comon" when i
modified that picture but with BC's I don't even know if there is a most
common. I think 10 years from now as the show BCs enter the "common" gene
pool my "most common" BC will be much closer to reality. I see an awfullot
of BCs with ears that are almost pendant though so who knows where "most
common" will go with ears.

        I also agree with you re: type vs. breed. On the ES list i've
advocated less adherence to the standard and more concentration on  what
makes an ES an ES. I'm more interested in temperment, intelligence, and
working ability and "looks" -
        but...

>Further, I wonder if it really makes a difference when you get in a rescue
>dog whether it is an ES, a BC, or an AS. The point is, without registration
>papers, we'll never know anyway. And we must place them according to their
>temperament no matter what breed they are. If it has working ability of any
>sort, we have just another individual criterion to go on when matching a
>particular dog up with a potential owner.

        I came up with the chart for Shelter and rescue workers. Many dogs
who end up in shelters get mis-labeled - they don't look or act like normal
representatives of their breed - they are thin, dirty, scruffy, freaked out
or terrfied;  and if any rescue gets called at all it may be the wrong one.
I personally will try to help any of these breeds and want to work with
Aussie and BC rescue to try to save all these dogs. But I know this isn't
necessarily the case with all rescue people. Some rescue folks only work
with their breed and they have a very narrow definition of their breed and
if the dog in question doesn't fall within that defined area they have no
problem walking away.  Some rescue people just aren't very well informed. I
know there are aussie people who really and truely believe that the Bernese
Mountain Aussies are what all aussies are supposed to look like, people who
have never seen a real working aussie, the little wiry guys with the thin
coats. Some rescue folks are breed snobs, some are uninformed, and shelter
workers are just overwhelmed.
        So the chart was supposed to be fairly simple and easy to use and
give shelter workers the best shot at calling the right rescue.
        I think temperment and working style/ability are where the
differences in these breeds really stand out but a shelter environment
isn't the best place to evaluate either and most people (even breed rescue
people) are more visually oriented anyway.

        I figure if it just makes shelters more aware of the three breeds
and their rescues it'll have served it's purpose...

                        jan


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