I guess that's when you have to find a breeder who no longer shows their dogs, like the Holmhaven ladies or someone who isn't interested in showing their stock in the breed ring, but does other things with them. In Germany the guarding breeds have to pass Shutzhunds test or herding test (GSD) before they are given breeding papers, they are very restrictive. So, if we don't want the resrictions, we have to look long and hard to find a breeder (s) that we like :) Hazelanne