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There is only one line I know of that does not have the ES in it. The old Dunrovin' line. Some say the smooth collie is a Farm Shepherd, but I like you , remember the old dogs of the 50's that looked quite a bit different. JMHO. Dusty Copeland, CFO Copeland Family Farms, LLC (530) 436-2348 www.goatmeats.com -----Original Message----- From: Farm Collie Breed Conservancy and Restoration [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Allison Moss-Fritch Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 1:39 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [FARMCOLLIE] something new--a question I have a question--- Most of you on this list raise ES, but you refer to these animals as "Farm Collies"..which I knew and well remember from my childhood. We must have had 30 or so working farm shepherds, just called, "coalies, collies, or Scotch collies".variously depending on who was speaking. There were variants on this general type of dog, with Basque versions following their shepherds at heel...and our own dogs behind us. ES is not quite what I remember---though I can't tell you exactly where it is different. The "Scotch collies" looked sort of like Lassie but smaller with a more open, silky coat, and a MUCH broader head with a marked stop and no "rat snout" as is so often seen today. I remember either folded or tulip ears---but mostly I remember the behavior which was NOT border collie like, but much more relaxed and gently droving. So are you breeders maintaining ES separately from your farm colllies? Are you interbreeding? How is this organized? Allison Allison E. Moss-Fritch New Moon Alpacas 350 Cloquallum Road Elma, WA 98541-9440 360/861-8584 home; cell 360/470-9317 [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> http://www.newmoonalpacas.com <http://www.newmoonalpacas.com/> From: Farm Collie Breed Conservancy and Restoration [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of M.L. Church Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 8:18 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [FARMCOLLIE] something new I have a vague memory about one of the English Queens liking spaniels. Blenheim palace, prehaps? Is it Blemheim or Blenheim? ML --- On Tue, 9/4/12, Mary Peaslee <[log in to unmask]> wrote: From: Mary Peaslee <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [FARMCOLLIE] something new To: [log in to unmask] Date: Tuesday, September 4, 2012, 2:52 PM I've only heard the term used in reference to Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, but the phenomenon (color spot on the forehead/top of skull) happens in a lot of breeds with white markings... I'd have to review my embryology ;-), but I believe there are basically three embryonic groups of melanocytes that fan out to produce pigment on the head of the dog -- one around each ear and one in the middle of the forehead. In dogs with white spotting, those melanocytes don't cover as much of the surface of the dog... when white areas are larger, the pigmented areas recede in a somewhat predictable manner (ie, the tip of the muzzle is the last area to get pigment as the melanocytes migrate, and the first to lose it when a dog inherits the gene for white spotting ;-). When there is a lot of white on the head, you may see little "islands" of pigmented fur around the ears and in the middle of the forehead corresponding to the 3 "original" pools of pigment producing cells... the melanocytes in those dogs don't migrate very far from their location of origin ;-). For whatever reason, the Spaniel people decided to name that forehead spot. Mary On Sep 4, 2012, at 2:13 PM, M.L. Church wrote: I don't mean I don't see the spot, my eyes aren't that bad - I just don't understand the reference. ML --- On Tue, 9/4/12, Mary Peaslee <[log in to unmask] <http:[log in to unmask]> > wrote: From: Mary Peaslee <[log in to unmask] <http:[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: [FARMCOLLIE] something new To: [log in to unmask] <http:[log in to unmask]> Date: Tuesday, September 4, 2012, 1:55 PM Ginger Busta's new pup from Carol Greet has one as well... I don't think Ginger will mind if I attach a photo she recently shared. Very cute pair :-). The big guy, Tank, is from Kris Hazelbaker's Mace and Sue Hagle's Mona. Mary <TankandLark.jpg> On Sep 4, 2012, at 1:41 PM, Rini wrote: Very gratifying. And it looks like one of the pups has a Blemheim spot on the top of his blaze; it's the only one I've ever seen on an ES except for Robbie. Rini <Sept3-bellepups.jpg>