Hi all,
I think we are getting a bit ahead of ourselves in regards to policing or
verifying the information on this new wiki. It is barely on it's feet (I
think there are 3 pictures and some minimal information) and already it's
a cause of controversy. If you have a problem with any of the information
on the site then sign up and change it (that's how these things work).
Once the site is on it's feet then we can "discuss" how best to go about
verifying the information. I am just really trying to provide this list
with a valuable tool for troubleshooting on IRMS systems. Before we start
picking the eggs we need to get a chicken.
Art
> Enough already!
>
>
>>>> [log in to unmask] 09/27/06 4:19 AM >>>
> Dear Jason,
>
> I did look at the Nature test and I was not impressed. They only have
> shown
> that Wikopedia is slightly worse in ‘accuracy’ for a few (42) subject
> entries (who has chosen the subjects and by what method – they do not
> state
> in the article in question – a lot of talk and opinions but that is no
> statistics, is it) than Encyclopaedia Britannica. If indeed so many
> mistakes
> or misquotes are exisiting in Encyclopaedia Britannica too, it might be
> questionable to use it then... I can imagine the people at Encyclopaedia
> Britannica were not amused and did dispute the outcome, since it shows
> they
> are not trustful either.
>
> But it does not solve the problem if we can trust what everybody will add
> to
> the wiki, and still control on contents will be needed one way or the
> other.
> I did not say that is easy; already a simple matter as peer-review of
> scientific publications is quite a difficult matter, and a wiki is even
> more
> complicated.
> Maybe you also got the message from me that I am positive to have a go
> with
> a wiki – let’s see where it will bring us. But keep the limitations
> strongly
> in mind...
>
> And what self-evidence you are talking about? Was it wrong to warn for the
> fact that some specialists will not give away their experience? Or is it
> wrong to charge for providing expertise (in our economic systems that is
> quite a common operation I thought). Certainly I like to get things for
> free, but that maybe is because I am a Dutchman....
>
> Enough time spilled with this matter.
> Back to science now,
> Pier.
>
> From: "Jason B. West" <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To: Stable Isotope Geochemistry <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 17:25:46 -0600
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: [ISOGEOCHEM] Isotope wiki
>
> Dear Pier,
>
> As I understand it, the kind of skepticism you expressed in your first
> response to Art was the primary reason that Nature went about testing
> Wikipedia's accuracy. I have to say that I'm surprised you doubt the
> approach taken by Nature without delving a bit deeper into their methods,
> but your second point seems self-evident (something I also stated in my
> original post).
>
> In my opinion, a "wiki" approach to sharing, updating, and discussing
> methodologies sounds like a good idea (see
> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v441/n7094/full/441678a.html for
> another discussion of some existing wikis out there). Simply having a
> shared, searchable archive of methods across labs and available online
> would
> seem to be a significant resource. Individual labs currently do this, and
> a
> wiki would seem to me to be just an extension of this to the broader
> community with some added benefits.
>
> All of that said, Wikipedia and other wikis exert considerable content
> control (a topic Art mentioned in his post). They certainly are not
> free-for-alls.
>
> Jason
>
> Pier de Groot wrote:
>> Re: [ISOGEOCHEM] Isotope wiki Dear Jason,
>>
>> Sorry to say that I am quite sceptical about statistics. Probably with
>> same
>> type of tests one can prove that the one is worse than the other –
>> depends
>> just on which, and which number of entries is chosen (you quote a
>> relatively
>> small number of 42; out of thousands of entries?!?).
>> To my opinion you better go to learn things in an experienced laboratory
>> before setting up one yourself. Learning this from an encyclopedia is
>> not the
>> right way as I see it... That is for me like learning to fly from a
>> book.
>>
>> Best,
>> Pier.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Jason B. West" <[log in to unmask]>
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> Reply-To: Stable Isotope Geochemistry <[log in to unmask]>
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 10:25:05 -0600
>> To: <[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: [ISOGEOCHEM] Isotope wiki
>>
>> Wiki-isogeochemers might be interested in the Nature piece that compared
>> the
>> Encyclopaedia Britannica to Wikipedia. See:
>> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v438/n7070/full/438900a.html
>>
>> A quote from the original article:
>>
>> "The exercise revealed numerous errors in both encyclopaedias, but among
>> 42
>> entries tested, the difference in accuracy was not particularly great:
>> the
>> average science entry in Wikipedia contained around four inaccuracies;
>> Britannica, about three."
>>
>> The response from Encyclopaedia Britannica and Nature's response to the
>> response can also be found on Nature's website. The take-home I think is
>> that
>> mature Wiki's can be incredibly useful resources, but of course should
>> be
>> viewed as sources with accuracy that can be compared to Encyclopedias. I
>> wouldn't start a lab based only on what I could find in the
>> Encyclopedia, but
>> if I knew nothing about a topic I might start there.
>>
>> Best,
>> Jason
>>
>> Pier de Groot wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi Arthur and others,
>>>
>>> I very much appreciate your initiative to start this up. However,
>>> having
>>> said so, I have one major worry, that is who will control the wiki? It
>>> is
>>> well known that the most popular wiki, the Wikopedia, contains quite
>>> some
>>> mistakes, wrong descriptions, etc. If not 'garded' and 'checked', this
>>> might
>>> raise some serious problems for your wiki.
>>> Besides, the argument that those who earn their money as consultant or
>>> independent technician, or manufacturers (they have support services
>>> and
>>> probably are not too eager to put on much info) will not volunteer to
>>> co-operate with such a wiki. But that does not mean it cannot be set
>>> up, of
>>> course.
>>>
>>> My opinion is to have it started and see where it is leading to. But
>>> info
>>> must be considered with care and not just taken for granted.
>>> My support you have...
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Pier.
>>> ****************************************************************
>>> Delta Isotopes Consultancy
>>>
>>> Dr. Pier A. de Groot
>>> Pastoor Moorkensstraat 16
>>> 2400 Mol - Achterbos
>>> Belgium
>>> Tel. +32 (0)14 326 205
>>> e-mail: [log in to unmask] or [log in to unmask]
>>>
>>> Associate editor for stable isotopes of eEarth on-line magazine
>>> http://www.electronic-earth.net
>>>
>>> Visit my WEB-site about my ³Handbook of Stable Isotope Analytical
>>> Techniques², with a link to the Elsevier web site on the handbook
>>> (marked:
>>> ŒOrder Now¹):
>>> http://users.pandora.be/handbook/index.html
>>> last update: August 15, 2005
>>> Volume I is now available. Volume II is expected to be available second
>>> half
>>> of 2006.
>>>
>>> ****************************************************************
>>> Why we are searching for extraterrestrial intelligence
>>> While we lack it so much on Earth?
>>>
>>> ****************************************************************
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Arthur T Kasson <[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Reply-To: Stable Isotope Geochemistry <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 11:14:23 -0400
>>>> To: <[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Subject: Re: [ISOGEOCHEM] Isotope wiki
>>>>
>>>> Attention Isogeochemers:
>>>>
>>>> With the help of a few people, we have started what we hope will
>>>> become an
>>>> informative isotope wiki including links for troubleshooting front
>>>> ends,
>>>> performing maintenance on various types of IRMS, problem solving tips,
>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>> In order to make this work we need your help. This is a pretty big
>>>> venture and requires help from all avenues of the isotope community
>>>> including established research labs, IRMS manufacturers, labs that
>>>> already
>>>> have established troubleshooting protocols for specific front ends
>>>> and/or
>>>> IRMS, front end and consumable vendors, etc.
>>>>
>>>> My hope is that if everyone does a little bit then we could have a
>>>> very
>>>> viable resource for these types of issues. Of course this will be a
>>>> resource that goes hand in hand with the Isogeochem listserve and web
>>>> site.
>>>>
>>>> You can view the wiki at the following url:
>>>>
>>>> http://isogeochem.wikispaces.com/
>>>>
>>>> Please realize that the wiki is in it's early stages and we were
>>>> mainly
>>>> just testing out these pages by adding pictures, text and so forth.
>>>>
>>>> I am going to try sending a mass invitation out to the list that will
>>>> allow you to signup and begin any editing. Feel free to edit existing
>>>> categories or create new categories. Since the wiki is only accessed
>>>> by
>>>> members that have been invited, it is possible for anyone on that list
>>>> to
>>>> do the editing. The next step is to figure out a way to police our
>>>> own
>>>> site to verify the accuracy of the edits (ex. information related to a
>>>> particular piece of equipment could be verified by the company that
>>>> makes
>>>> it). This issue is up for discussion.
>>>>
>>>> Let me know if you have any questions.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>
>>>> Art Kasson
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Art Kasson
>>>> Cornell Isotope Laboratory
>>>> Dept Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
>>>> E440 Corson Hall
>>>> Tower Road
>>>> Ithaca NY 14853 USA
>>>> Phone: 607.254.1382
>>>> Fax: 607.255.8088
>>>> COIL website
>>>> http://www.cobsil.com
>>>> Isogeochem website
>>>> http://www.isogeochem.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> ________________________________
>>
>> Jason B. West
>> Research Assistant Professor
>> Department of Biology
>> University of Utah
>>
>> Ph: 801.587.3404
>> Fax: 801.581.4665
>> Email: [log in to unmask]
>>
>> http://isoscapes.org
>> ________________________________
>>
>>
>
> --
> ________________________________
>
> Jason B. West
> Research Assistant Professor
> Department of Biology
> University of Utah
>
> Ph: 801.587.3404
> Fax: 801.581.4665
> Email: [log in to unmask]
>
> http://isoscapes.org
> ________________________________
>
--
Art Kasson
Cornell Isotope Laboratory
Dept Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
E440 Corson Hall
Tower Road
Ithaca NY 14853 USA
Phone: 607.254.1382
Fax: 607.255.8088
COIL website
http://www.cobsil.com
Isogeochem website
http://www.isogeochem.com
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