Lisa, I could not agree more with your comments on this topic. Of course,
I "only" have an Associate's degree and forty-plus years of experience.
On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 6:20 AM, jeremy orlikoski <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> Lisa,
>
> Please don't feel disrespected by this thread. I know that all of us have
> put in time become knowledgeable about our profession. This thread was
> geared toward the advanced certification of Advanced Sonographer and how
> it's a rather pointless certification at this point in time.
>
> Also, the CME's we take are no different then the basic, open book test
> that my child takes in school. Read the article, answer the questions from
> the reading material and you get your CME's.
>
> Jeremy Orlikoski
>
> > Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 15:38:08 +0000
> > From: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: UVMFLOWNET Digest - 2 May 2016 (#2016-72)
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >
> > Wow... reading this I feel really insulted, as probably a lot of
> sonographers out there.
> > First--most of us spent over 2 years to get our degree.... It takes a
> total of 4 years for most to get the prereqs and then into the program. And
> the time is over when you put in the summers and clinicals. I have an AA
> and an AA and very proud of both.
> > Second--- I did study Construction technology before going back into
> medicine, (also worked as an Optician for 10 years). We are not the same as
> a "trade". Houses don't die. Plumbers and Electricians don't have to do
> CME's. My husband is a Master Mechanic and holds certification in 40
> different sub areas. Yes he takes a test every year , but it is basic. (he
> just took 6 last Saturday and was home by lunch, no studying--they test on
> what they do all day)
> > Third--- BA are a dime a dozen in today's world, there are plenty of
> recent studies that show the BA degree does not guarantee a good worker. In
> fact, many employers are going back to wanting EXPERIENCE, over book work.
> Experience in our field means commitment. Doing the 2am, 4am runs and still
> making it to work at 6 am to put in a 10 hr day.
> > Age discrimination is on the rise and low quality work also. (how many
> RN are there that have a BSN but they actually had a BA in Liberal Arts and
> took an 18 month course to get the BSN?)
> > I am very proud of my years of experience and the opportunities I have
> had because MD's, like Dr Bergan, saw my commitment and mentored me. I
> would not trade all those years of after hours, Sat and Sun work on top of
> my long hours in the hospital setting and taking call 5-7 days a week for a
> $40,00 plus bill and a piece of paper that said I spent hours in a
> classroom learning things that had nothing to do with the world of medicine
> I was involved in.
> > And I might add-- the people that contributed the most , had the least
> education and the greatest imagination and innovation. And there are some
> that have gotten credit for the innovation that some else put the work
> into...... Truth in Life, real life.
> >
> >
> >
> > Lisa Kincaid, RVT
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> UVMFLOWNET automatic digest system
> > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2016 21:00 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: UVMFLOWNET Digest - 2 May 2016 (#2016-72)
> >
> > There are 7 messages totaling 6352 lines in this issue.
> >
> > Topics of the day:
> >
> > 1. Ultrasound PR actioner (5)
> > 2. integration of data (2)
> >
> > To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:
> > http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 12:54:41 -0400
> > From: Bill Schroedter <[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
> >
> > You are almost totally correct Jeremy with the exception that the
> plumber and carpenter are in one way, quite different than us. They, along
> with the person who cuts your hair, are required to demonstrate at least
> some level of competence in order to practice. This is assured by licensure
> and our lack of it is a true indictment of our profession – oops - sorry
> trade ;-) And your salary with never appreciate significantly until we are
> because as Andy mentioned, the large and ever increasing majority of
> employers are now for profit corporations whose primary responsibility is
> making money for shareholders.
> >
> > Wow – and its only Monday!
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> > From: UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of jeremy
> orlikoski
> > Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 12:05 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
> >
> >
> >
> > Laura,
> >
> >
> >
> > I totally agree with you. If I could reset the clock and start over
> again I would go through a 4 year program but after 14 years in the field
> going back to school for 3-4 years to make the same salary as I do now
> doesn't financially make any sense. But I also love what I do everyday.
> Seeing patients and interacting with them is what makes me get out of bed
> every morning (and middle of the night for a r/o DVT in the ER). Management
> has NO appeal for me and I'm sure for many other people, so the 4 year
> degree would be wasted on them.
> >
> >
> >
> > I always explain to people that what I do is just a trade. Like a
> plumber or carpenter.... It's a skill that takes both knowledge and
> physical ability to perform the job. Now we all know there is a HUGE
> difference between a master plumber and a regular plumber same goes for a
> general carpenter and a finish carpenter. Both jobs require the minimal
> training for the base level career but the master plumber and finish
> carpenter require skills that not every plumber or carpenter will ever
> posses no matter how much they study and take tests. Sonography is they
> same way. There are thousands of us sonographer in this country. Most of us
> are very dedicated to our chosen careers but there are some sonographers
> who's technical ability and knowledge surpasses the rest. I've had the
> privilege to work with some of these individuals. In our chosen field there
> is no way to distinguish one of these individuals from the rest of us
> because there's no monetary advantage in obtaining any additio!
> > nal credentials. If you've never hired a plumber or a carpenter then you
> don't know there's a HUGE cost difference between a general carpenter and a
> finish carpenter; with sonography there is no difference in cost to the
> patient when getting an ultrasound done by an unaccredited, 2 year college
> sonographer and a sonographer with a Bachelor degree. So the advanced
> sonographer credential realistically would just let us 'toot our horns'
> regarding our credentials to others in the sonography field but concisely
> benefit us or our employers....
> >
> >
> >
> > More credentials don't mean that you're a better sonographer then the
> next person, my personal experience is the more registries you have the
> less competent you are at the individual modalities. Each ultrasound
> modality requires an enormous amount of knowledge and physical ability to
> perform with a high accuracy. Once you 'water down' your training with
> general, vascular, throw in OB/GYN for good measure too, you now have the
> entire human body to interrogate from gestation to death.... That's just
> too much information, in today's medical world, to absorb and regurgitate
> on demand and require individuals to physically perform all the required
> examinations.
> >
> >
> >
> > Dang... Sorry the train left the tracks on this tread.
> >
> >
> >
> > Back to the main topic... What was it again....
> >
> > Jeremy Orlikoski
> >
> >
> > On May 2, 2016, at 10:17 AM, Laura Vasquez <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:
> >
> > Tuition cost should be justified by receiving the highest level and
> quality of the education and this endeavor should be looked as an
> investment. What you will make your first year out of school should surpass
> the total tuition cost. Typically, that is how you should approach any
> educational investment.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regardless of the sources that have given you their perspective, I think
> you have to take people's opinions "with a grain of salt"—including mine.
> Some will tell you that you only need to pursue a program that would allow
> you to take the registry once completed. I think it's imperative to
> accomplish college credits for any educational program you pursue. The
> reason being, you will be able to take those credits with you to another
> institution and accomplish the higher degree.
> >
> >
> >
> > A BS degree in imaging science is a great thing to have for all of the
> career paths and for the management and upward mobility potential that
> might limit a tech with an AS degree alone- I say might because I am
> privileged to work with some phenomenal elite sonographers/MRI & CT
> technologists who came from hospital based programs. Bottom line, as in any
> field, the more education you have the more qualified you are for a given
> position. Although, it is not the only consideration. Attention should be
> paid to: management training and experience, in addition to time spent
> functioning within the multitude of capacities expected of our career
> field. I would highly recommend a BS degree. The job market is tough out
> there and you will be more marketable with a BS degree.
> >
> >
> >
> > Advisory focuses on MRI &CT Medicare program policies. Policies may
> apply to selected private payers in addressing coding, coverage, and
> payment for diagnostic CT & MRI and Interventional procedures. Fortunately,
> according to American Society of Radiologic Technologists (ASRT), salaries
> do increase for those who possess an advanced educational degree, along
> with the knowledge and skills for advanced practice. I am surprised and
> it’s an injustice that this is not the case for the sonography field.
> >
> >
> >
> > ~lv
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Laura Vasquez, Ph.D.(C), RVT (ARDMS), RT (R), (MR), (ARRT)
> >
> > Program Director, Imaging Sciences Program
> >
> > Associate Chairperson, Department of Medical Physics & Advanced Imaging
> >
> > Chairperson, CHS Diversity Committee
> >
> > Rush University, College of Health Sciences
> > 600 South Paulina Street
> >
> > 764A Armour Academic Center
> >
> > Chicago, Illinois 60612-3244
> > Tel: (312) 942-2842
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > “By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail.”
> >
> > <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/b/benjamin_franklin.html>
> Benjamin Franklin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: UVM Flownet [ <mailto:[log in to unmask]> mailto:
> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of jeremy orlikoski
> > Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 9:40 AM
> > To: <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
> >
> >
> >
> > Dang! Time to relocate.... Don't come to Austin, TX not much better here
> either.
> >
> > Jeremy Orlikoski
> >
> >
> > On May 2, 2016, at 9:37 AM, Andrew Bebry <[log in to unmask] <mailto:
> [log in to unmask]> > wrote:
> >
> > Steve:
> >
> > I understand that, thanks. I respect your input and experience very much
> Steve.
> >
> > Here on Long Island however, some of my peer cardiothoracic and vascular
> surgeons that I have worked with for decades have been semi-suddenly let go
> for new hires. They were furious! This is disgusting!! Now my immediate
> area has NOONE to go vein grafts. They just do quick synthetic fem-pops
> cause its easier and saves time. Three of my local hospitals does NOT have
> a staff vascular surgeon on standby in these facilities. There is one
> contracted doc to handle all three and the doc has to rent space from the
> hospital in order to see patients there. Many of those cases are sent to
> other linked hospitals. I know certain hospitals are better suited for
> certain procedures, but why put patients out by transferring them for
> procedures we routinely used to do here? The local conglomerate
> administrators and making millions each and cut salaries on employees. Did
> you know that "our" local system spent $85 million on a NAME CHANGE. Did
> nothing for patients. Did nothing for em!
> > ployees. Each employee (all 61 million) could have gotten a $1 million
> raise; they would then love to work there; the consensus is a bad attitude
> toward the system. Say more prayers. Sincerely, Andy
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Steve Knight <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:
> >
> > Andrew the ACS credential is a reality for echo and several people have
> achieved it already. I think the pay for somebody with 18 months of applied
> technology training at community college (only a portion of which is
> didactic) is fair to the new hire. Those same people have a very limited
> role as new grads and have limited career flexibility should they give up
> or lose their job. Somebody with a baccalaureate degree (or higher) has
> many more options as far as career path goes. Until a higher level of
> education is required to practice ultrasound, business will be business and
> hire accordingly.
> > Steve
> >
> > On May 2, 2016 7:07 AM, "Andrew Bebry" <[log in to unmask] <mailto:
> [log in to unmask]> > wrote:
> >
> > Jeremy. I believe this topic has come up before. Not likely the
> credential will be a reality. Facilities do not want to pay more for codes
> they are already getting paid for. As a matter of FACT, 'facilities' are
> hiring techs real cheap right out of school and when private offices are
> acquired, the techs are taking a $10 PER HOUR CUT for the same work. Who
> would want the additional liability when you are not rewarded for your
> efforts and training? Gee, sounds like socialization. Sorry for the truth.
> Just my 'opinion.' Andy Bebry Rvt Rcs
> >
> > On May 2, 2016 9:59 AM, "jeremy orlikoski" <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:
> >
> > How would a practitioner's salary compare to a sonographer with 10-15
> years of experience? Because at 10-15 years we're already maxed out at most
> facilities.
> >
> >
> > Jeremy Orlikoski
> >
> >
> > On May 2, 2016, at 8:30 AM, Phan, James <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:
> >
> > I am in support of the ACS credential. However, The minimum requirement
> for the sonographer in my opinion should be upgraded to at least an
> associated degree and to me a bachelor is preferred.
> >
> >
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> >
> >
> > James Phan
> >
> >
> >
> > From: UVM Flownet [ <mailto:[log in to unmask]> mailto:
> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Terrence Case
> > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2016 5:29 AM
> > To: <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Ultrasound Practioner
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve I believe 100% that the basic core of education for the position
> of ultrasound practitioner, should be at minimum a baccalaureate degree.
> Terry Case
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > On May 2, 2016, at 1:07 AM, Steve Knight <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:
> >
> > Jay thank you for sharing Mr. Horton's letter. I have yet to read the
> full white paper (the link will only get me as far as the abstract without
> a paid membership of the ASE.)
> >
> >
> >
> > The blue paper from 2007 contains the following passage: "The ACS
> profession requires additional curriculum beyond a bachelor’s degree and an
> internship (with a proposed higher level credential)".
> >
> >
> >
> > The spirit of that passage has not been followed by the CCI. I'm glad
> that advanced practice is starting to gain some ground but it is still my
> opinion that the minimum level of education for the CCI ACS credential
> should be a baccalaureate degree and not a high school diploma.
> >
> >
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve Knight
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Terrence Case <[log in to unmask] <mailto:
> [log in to unmask]> > wrote:
> >
> > Excellent review. Thank you. Terry Case
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > On May 1, 2016, at 2:58 PM, Jay Shafer <[log in to unmask] <mailto:
> [log in to unmask]> > wrote:
> >
> > Good afternoon,
> >
> > I am sharing this response from Ken Horton the president of CCI. It is
> sent on behalf of the CCI leadership team in the hope that it helps in the
> conversation.
> >
> > Jay Shafer
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In cardiac echo there is not a true "mid-level provider"
> >
> > 1. The Advanced Cardiac Sonographer (ACS) examination was developed by
> Cardiovascular Credentialing International (CCI) at the request of the
> American Society of Echocardiography (ASE) and the Committee on
> Accreditation – Advanced Cardiac Sonographer (CoA-ACS). In 2008 a white
> paper was published in JASE identifying a need for an advanced level
> sonographer. I recommend you read this article that describes the role of
> the ACS as it was originally envisioned.
> >
> > <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.onlinejase.com_article_S0894-2D7317-2809-2900907-2D9_pdf&d=CwMFaQ&c=XxU8ngzB_WPJXKyiin_6iQ&r=XVp7Tb8BN3KWjNN6H53AT3cHTZses366O0j2JhrKMu4&m=tP1SpeAL1Xl8LxvxPV_vb_T-HRz8Wez104_UGEfXiNw&s=yV02ws1mokP9IBsHolWYp9asn-MX9bE6Lso8xSZBbhw&e=>
> Link to the ASE White Paper
> >
> > 2. There is not a true "mid-level provider" in cardiac echo. There have
> been two blue pages written in JASE that also describe the role of the ACS
> I encourage you to read these blue pages.
> >
> > <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.onlinejase.com_article_S0894-2D7317-2811-2900965-2D5_pdf&d=CwMFaQ&c=XxU8ngzB_WPJXKyiin_6iQ&r=XVp7Tb8BN3KWjNN6H53AT3cHTZses366O0j2JhrKMu4&m=tP1SpeAL1Xl8LxvxPV_vb_T-HRz8Wez104_UGEfXiNw&s=QUgFhoLZVwH7KQBZovbHxz9KxPVMS2aG6ISI-qs4yZg&e=>
> Link to blue page Feb 2012 – Michelle Bierig
> >
> > <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.onlinejase.com_article_S0894-2D7317-2815-2900182-2D0_pdf&d=CwMFaQ&c=XxU8ngzB_WPJXKyiin_6iQ&r=XVp7Tb8BN3KWjNN6H53AT3cHTZses366O0j2JhrKMu4&m=tP1SpeAL1Xl8LxvxPV_vb_T-HRz8Wez104_UGEfXiNw&s=pLXhvyNR92pRDEFQj1HmoBZ20MXWWTiq4PaJJQNov34&e=>
> Link to blue page May 2015 - Matt Umland
> >
> > 3. The ACS examination is an advanced level examination used to assess
> an advanced level of knowledge. It goes beyond the entry level concepts
> that are assessed by the RCS and RDCS examinations. When the ACS exam was
> developed it was assumed there would be educational programs created and
> the graduates would take the exam. Experiential pathways were added to
> bridge the gap until enough educational programs were created to support
> the exam. At this time there are two (that I am aware of) ACS programs
> accepting students. Currently all applicants that have taken the exam have
> used the experiential pathways.
> >
> > 4. The ACS Examination Booklet has the answers to all your questions.
> The booklet has all the prerequisites (page 5) for taking the examination,
> the examination matrix )page 7) broke down by percentage (a perfect guide
> to help you “budget” your study time), and a list of study references (page
> 7). CCI does not endorse any particular reference over another. Also, the
> ASE is in the early phases of developing an exam review course. This will
> take some time and I suspect a product won’t be available for 10-12 months.
> This is a link to the ACS exam booklet that has all this information.
> >
> > <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__cci-2Donline.org_sites_default_files_2015-2520ACS-2520App-2520Book-2DFINAL.pdf&d=CwMFaQ&c=XxU8ngzB_WPJXKyiin_6iQ&r=XVp7Tb8BN3KWjNN6H53AT3cHTZses366O0j2JhrKMu4&m=tP1SpeAL1Xl8LxvxPV_vb_T-HRz8Wez104_UGEfXiNw&s=WN_7cgtHX8RA08T-v6Dg2_vhgEq4AOt4GLHgWT5_tKU&e=>
> Link to ACS Exam Booklet
> >
> > 5. As heath care and reimbursement models change we will see the role of
> the sonographer change and potentially a broadening of our scope of
> practice. I applaud the ASE, the Council on Cardiovascular Sonography and
> the CoA-ACS on their forward thinking. I feel the creation of this pathway
> is the first step in preparing sonography for these changes.
> >
> > Please feel free to respond to this post or to me directly ( <mailto:
> [log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]) with any other questions you have.
> >
> > -----------------------------
> > Ken Horton ACS, RCS, FASE
> > President, Cardiovascular Credentialing International (CCI)
> > Intermountain Heart Institute
> > Intermountain Medical Center
> > Murray, Utah
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 30, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Terrence Case <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:
> >
> > Anyone familiar with this term or know anyone using it?
> >
> >
> >
> > Terry Case
> >
> > Sent from iCloud
> >
> > To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:
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>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Jay Shafer
> >
> >
> >
> > Lead with your heart, follow with your mind and let your spirit soar!!
> >
> > -Shafer
> >
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> >
> >
> >
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>
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> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 12:01:05 -0500
> > From: jeremy orlikoski <[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
> >
> > Very true. Very true....
> >
> > Jeremy Orlikoski
> >
> > > On May 2, 2016, at 11:55 AM, Bill Schroedter <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > You are almost totally correct Jeremy with the exception that the
> plumber and carpenter are in one way, quite different than us. They, along
> with the person who cuts your hair, are required to demonstrate at least
> some level of competence in order to practice. This is assured by licensure
> and our lack of it is a true indictment of our profession – oops - sorry
> trade ;-) And your salary with never appreciate significantly until we are
> because as Andy mentioned, the large and ever increasing majority of
> employers are now for profit corporations whose primary responsibility is
> making money for shareholders.
> > > Wow – and its only Monday!
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > From: UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> jeremy orlikoski
> > > Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 12:05 PM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
> > >
> > > Laura,
> > >
> > > I totally agree with you. If I could reset the clock and start over
> again I would go through a 4 year program but after 14 years in the field
> going back to school for 3-4 years to make the same salary as I do now
> doesn't financially make any sense. But I also love what I do everyday.
> Seeing patients and interacting with them is what makes me get out of bed
> every morning (and middle of the night for a r/o DVT in the ER). Management
> has NO appeal for me and I'm sure for many other people, so the 4 year
> degree would be wasted on them.
> > >
> > > I always explain to people that what I do is just a trade. Like a
> plumber or carpenter.... It's a skill that takes both knowledge and
> physical ability to perform the job. Now we all know there is a HUGE
> difference between a master plumber and a regular plumber same goes for a
> general carpenter and a finish carpenter. Both jobs require the minimal
> training for the base level career but the master plumber and finish
> carpenter require skills that not every plumber or carpenter will ever
> posses no matter how much they study and take tests. Sonography is they
> same way. There are thousands of us sonographer in this country. Most of us
> are very dedicated to our chosen careers but there are some sonographers
> who's technical ability and knowledge surpasses the rest. I've had the
> privilege to work with some of these individuals. In our chosen field there
> is no way to distinguish one of these individuals from the rest of us
> because there's no monetary advantage in obtaining any addit!
> > ional credentials. If you've never hired a plumber or a carpenter then
> you don't know there's a HUGE cost difference between a general carpenter
> and a finish carpenter; with sonography there is no difference in cost to
> the patient when getting an ultrasound done by an unaccredited, 2 year
> college sonographer and a sonographer with a Bachelor degree. So the
> advanced sonographer credential realistically would just let us 'toot our
> horns' regarding our credentials to others in the sonography field but
> concisely benefit us or our employers....
> > >
> > > More credentials don't mean that you're a better sonographer then the
> next person, my personal experience is the more registries you have the
> less competent you are at the individual modalities. Each ultrasound
> modality requires an enormous amount of knowledge and physical ability to
> perform with a high accuracy. Once you 'water down' your training with
> general, vascular, throw in OB/GYN for good measure too, you now have the
> entire human body to interrogate from gestation to death.... That's just
> too much information, in today's medical world, to absorb and regurgitate
> on demand and require individuals to physically perform all the required
> examinations.
> > >
> > > Dang... Sorry the train left the tracks on this tread.
> > >
> > > Back to the main topic... What was it again....
> > >
> > > Jeremy Orlikoski
> > >
> > > On May 2, 2016, at 10:17 AM, Laura Vasquez <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Tuition cost should be justified by receiving the highest level and
> quality of the education and this endeavor should be looked as an
> investment. What you will make your first year out of school should surpass
> the total tuition cost. Typically, that is how you should approach any
> educational investment.
> > >
> > > Regardless of the sources that have given you their perspective, I
> think you have to take people's opinions "with a grain of salt"—including
> mine. Some will tell you that you only need to pursue a program that would
> allow you to take the registry once completed. I think it's imperative to
> accomplish college credits for any educational program you pursue. The
> reason being, you will be able to take those credits with you to another
> institution and accomplish the higher degree.
> > >
> > > A BS degree in imaging science is a great thing to have for all of the
> career paths and for the management and upward mobility potential that
> might limit a tech with an AS degree alone- I say might because I am
> privileged to work with some phenomenal elite sonographers/MRI & CT
> technologists who came from hospital based programs. Bottom line, as in any
> field, the more education you have the more qualified you are for a given
> position. Although, it is not the only consideration. Attention should be
> paid to: management training and experience, in addition to time spent
> functioning within the multitude of capacities expected of our career
> field. I would highly recommend a BS degree. The job market is tough out
> there and you will be more marketable with a BS degree.
> > >
> > > Advisory focuses on MRI &CT Medicare program policies. Policies may
> apply to selected private payers in addressing coding, coverage, and
> payment for diagnostic CT & MRI and Interventional procedures. Fortunately,
> according to American Society of Radiologic Technologists (ASRT), salaries
> do increase for those who possess an advanced educational degree, along
> with the knowledge and skills for advanced practice. I am surprised and
> it’s an injustice that this is not the case for the sonography field.
> > >
> > > ~lv
> > >
> > >
> > > Laura Vasquez, Ph.D.(C), RVT (ARDMS), RT (R), (MR), (ARRT)
> > > Program Director, Imaging Sciences Program
> > > Associate Chairperson, Department of Medical Physics & Advanced
> Imaging
> > > Chairperson, CHS Diversity Committee
> > > Rush University, College of Health Sciences
> > > 600 South Paulina Street
> > > 764A Armour Academic Center
> > > Chicago, Illinois 60612-3244
> > > Tel: (312) 942-2842
> > >
> > >
> > > “By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail.”
> > > Benjamin Franklin
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> jeremy orlikoski
> > > Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 9:40 AM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
> > >
> > > Dang! Time to relocate.... Don't come to Austin, TX not much better
> here either.
> > >
> > > Jeremy Orlikoski
> > >
> > > On May 2, 2016, at 9:37 AM, Andrew Bebry <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Steve:
> > > I understand that, thanks. I respect your input and experience very
> much Steve.
> > > Here on Long Island however, some of my peer cardiothoracic and
> vascular surgeons that I have worked with for decades have been
> semi-suddenly let go for new hires. They were furious! This is disgusting!!
> Now my immediate area has NOONE to go vein grafts. They just do quick
> synthetic fem-pops cause its easier and saves time. Three of my local
> hospitals does NOT have a staff vascular surgeon on standby in these
> facilities. There is one contracted doc to handle all three and the doc has
> to rent space from the hospital in order to see patients there. Many of
> those cases are sent to other linked hospitals. I know certain hospitals
> are better suited for certain procedures, but why put patients out by
> transferring them for procedures we routinely used to do here? The local
> conglomerate administrators and making millions each and cut salaries on
> employees. Did you know that "our" local system spent $85 million on a NAME
> CHANGE. Did nothing for patients. Did nothing for !
> > employees. Each employee (all 61 million) could have gotten a $1 million
> raise; they would then love to work there; the consensus is a bad attitude
> toward the system. Say more prayers. Sincerely, Andy
> > >
> > > On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Steve Knight <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > > Andrew the ACS credential is a reality for echo and several people
> have achieved it already. I think the pay for somebody with 18 months of
> applied technology training at community college (only a portion of which
> is didactic) is fair to the new hire. Those same people have a very limited
> role as new grads and have limited career flexibility should they give up
> or lose their job. Somebody with a baccalaureate degree (or higher) has
> many more options as far as career path goes. Until a higher level of
> education is required to practice ultrasound, business will be business and
> hire accordingly.
> > > Steve
> > >
> > > On May 2, 2016 7:07 AM, "Andrew Bebry" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > > Jeremy. I believe this topic has come up before. Not likely the
> credential will be a reality. Facilities do not want to pay more for codes
> they are already getting paid for. As a matter of FACT, 'facilities' are
> hiring techs real cheap right out of school and when private offices are
> acquired, the techs are taking a $10 PER HOUR CUT for the same work. Who
> would want the additional liability when you are not rewarded for your
> efforts and training? Gee, sounds like socialization. Sorry for the truth.
> Just my 'opinion.' Andy Bebry Rvt Rcs
> > >
> > > On May 2, 2016 9:59 AM, "jeremy orlikoski" <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > > How would a practitioner's salary compare to a sonographer with 10-15
> years of experience? Because at 10-15 years we're already maxed out at most
> facilities.
> > >
> > > Jeremy Orlikoski
> > >
> > > On May 2, 2016, at 8:30 AM, Phan, James <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I am in support of the ACS credential. However, The minimum
> requirement for the sonographer in my opinion should be upgraded to at
> least an associated degree and to me a bachelor is preferred.
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > >
> > > James Phan
> > >
> > > From: UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> Terrence Case
> > > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2016 5:29 AM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: Ultrasound Practioner
> > >
> > > Steve I believe 100% that the basic core of education for the position
> of ultrasound practitioner, should be at minimum a baccalaureate degree.
> Terry Case
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On May 2, 2016, at 1:07 AM, Steve Knight <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Jay thank you for sharing Mr. Horton's letter. I have yet to read the
> full white paper (the link will only get me as far as the abstract without
> a paid membership of the ASE.)
> > >
> > > The blue paper from 2007 contains the following passage: "The ACS
> profession requires additional curriculum beyond a bachelor’s degree and an
> internship (with a proposed higher level credential)".
> > >
> > > The spirit of that passage has not been followed by the CCI. I'm glad
> that advanced practice is starting to gain some ground but it is still my
> opinion that the minimum level of education for the CCI ACS credential
> should be a baccalaureate degree and not a high school diploma.
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > >
> > > Steve Knight
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Terrence Case <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > > Excellent review. Thank you. Terry Case
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On May 1, 2016, at 2:58 PM, Jay Shafer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Good afternoon,
> > >
> > > I am sharing this response from Ken Horton the president of CCI. It is
> sent on behalf of the CCI leadership team in the hope that it helps in the
> conversation.
> > >
> > > Jay Shafer
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In cardiac echo there is not a true "mid-level provider"
> > >
> > > 1. The Advanced Cardiac Sonographer (ACS) examination was developed by
> Cardiovascular Credentialing International (CCI) at the request of the
> American Society of Echocardiography (ASE) and the Committee on
> Accreditation – Advanced Cardiac Sonographer (CoA-ACS). In 2008 a white
> paper was published in JASE identifying a need for an advanced level
> sonographer. I recommend you read this article that describes the role of
> the ACS as it was originally envisioned.
> > >
> > > Link to the ASE White Paper
> > >
> > > 2. There is not a true "mid-level provider" in cardiac echo. There
> have been two blue pages written in JASE that also describe the role of the
> ACS I encourage you to read these blue pages.
> > >
> > > Link to blue page Feb 2012 – Michelle Bierig
> > >
> > > Link to blue page May 2015 - Matt Umland
> > >
> > > 3. The ACS examination is an advanced level examination used to assess
> an advanced level of knowledge. It goes beyond the entry level concepts
> that are assessed by the RCS and RDCS examinations. When the ACS exam was
> developed it was assumed there would be educational programs created and
> the graduates would take the exam. Experiential pathways were added to
> bridge the gap until enough educational programs were created to support
> the exam. At this time there are two (that I am aware of) ACS programs
> accepting students. Currently all applicants that have taken the exam have
> used the experiential pathways.
> > >
> > > 4. The ACS Examination Booklet has the answers to all your questions.
> The booklet has all the prerequisites (page 5) for taking the examination,
> the examination matrix )page 7) broke down by percentage (a perfect guide
> to help you “budget” your study time), and a list of study references (page
> 7). CCI does not endorse any particular reference over another. Also, the
> ASE is in the early phases of developing an exam review course. This will
> take some time and I suspect a product won’t be available for 10-12 months.
> This is a link to the ACS exam booklet that has all this information.
> > >
> > > Link to ACS Exam Booklet
> > >
> > > 5. As heath care and reimbursement models change we will see the role
> of the sonographer change and potentially a broadening of our scope of
> practice. I applaud the ASE, the Council on Cardiovascular Sonography and
> the CoA-ACS on their forward thinking. I feel the creation of this pathway
> is the first step in preparing sonography for these changes.
> > >
> > > Please feel free to respond to this post or to me directly (
> [log in to unmask]) with any other questions you have.
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > > Ken Horton ACS, RCS, FASE
> > > President, Cardiovascular Credentialing International (CCI)
> > > Intermountain Heart Institute
> > > Intermountain Medical Center
> > > Murray, Utah
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Apr 30, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Terrence Case <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > > Anyone familiar with this term or know anyone using it?
> > >
> > > Terry Case
> > > Sent from iCloud
> > > To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:
> http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jay Shafer
> > >
> > > Lead with your heart, follow with your mind and let your spirit soar!!
> > >
> > > -Shafer
> > >
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> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 13:07:12 -0400
> > From: Andrew Bebry <[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
> >
> > Keep it coming.
> > Andy
> >
> > On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 1:01 PM, jeremy orlikoski <[log in to unmask]
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Very true. Very true....
> > >
> > > Jeremy Orlikoski
> > >
> > > On May 2, 2016, at 11:55 AM, Bill Schroedter <
> > > [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > You are almost totally correct Jeremy with the exception that the
> plumber
> > > and carpenter are in one way, quite different than us. They, along with
> > > the person who cuts your hair, are required to demonstrate at least
> some
> > > level of competence in order to practice. This is assured by licensure
> and
> > > our lack of it is a true indictment of our profession – oops - sorry
> trade
> > > ;-) And your salary with never appreciate significantly until we are
> > > because as Andy mentioned, the large and ever increasing majority of
> > > employers are now for profit corporations whose primary responsibility
> is
> > > making money for shareholders.
> > >
> > > Wow – and its only Monday!
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > *From:* UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> > > <[log in to unmask]>] *On Behalf Of *jeremy orlikoski
> > > *Sent:* Monday, May 2, 2016 12:05 PM
> > > *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> > > *Subject:* Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Laura,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I totally agree with you. If I could reset the clock and start over
> again
> > > I would go through a 4 year program but after 14 years in the field
> going
> > > back to school for 3-4 years to make the same salary as I do now
> doesn't
> > > financially make any sense. But I also love what I do everyday. Seeing
> > > patients and interacting with them is what makes me get out of bed
> every
> > > morning (and middle of the night for a r/o DVT in the ER). Management
> has
> > > NO appeal for me and I'm sure for many other people, so the 4 year
> degree
> > > would be wasted on them.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I always explain to people that what I do is just a trade. Like a
> plumber
> > > or carpenter.... It's a skill that takes both knowledge and physical
> > > ability to perform the job. Now we all know there is a HUGE difference
> > > between a master plumber and a regular plumber same goes for a general
> > > carpenter and a finish carpenter. Both jobs require the minimal
> training
> > > for the base level career but the master plumber and finish carpenter
> > > require skills that not every plumber or carpenter will ever posses no
> > > matter how much they study and take tests. Sonography is they same way.
> > > There are thousands of us sonographer in this country. Most of us are
> very
> > > dedicated to our chosen careers but there are some sonographers who's
> > > technical ability and knowledge surpasses the rest. I've had the
> privilege
> > > to work with some of these individuals. In our chosen field there is
> no way
> > > to distinguish one of these individuals from the rest of us because
> there's
> > > no monetary advantage in obtaining any additional credentials. If
> you've
> > > never hired a plumber or a carpenter then you don't know there's a HUGE
> > > cost difference between a general carpenter and a finish carpenter;
> with
> > > sonography there is no difference in cost to the patient when getting
> an
> > > ultrasound done by an unaccredited, 2 year college sonographer and a
> > > sonographer with a Bachelor degree. So the advanced sonographer
> credential
> > > realistically would just let us 'toot our horns' regarding our
> credentials
> > > to others in the sonography field but concisely benefit us or our
> > > employers....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > More credentials don't mean that you're a better sonographer then the
> next
> > > person, my personal experience is the more registries you have the less
> > > competent you are at the individual modalities. Each ultrasound
> modality
> > > requires an enormous amount of knowledge and physical ability to
> perform
> > > with a high accuracy. Once you 'water down' your training with general,
> > > vascular, throw in OB/GYN for good measure too, you now have the entire
> > > human body to interrogate from gestation to death.... That's just too
> much
> > > information, in today's medical world, to absorb and regurgitate on
> demand
> > > and require individuals to physically perform all the required
> > > examinations.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dang... Sorry the train left the tracks on this tread.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Back to the main topic... What was it again....
> > >
> > > Jeremy Orlikoski
> > >
> > >
> > > On May 2, 2016, at 10:17 AM, Laura Vasquez <[log in to unmask]
> > > <[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Tuition cost should be justified by receiving the highest level and
> > > quality of the education and this endeavor should be looked as an
> > > investment. What you will make your first year out of school should
> surpass
> > > the total tuition cost. Typically, that is how you should approach any
> > > educational investment.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regardless of the sources that have given you their perspective, I
> think
> > > you have to take people's opinions "with a grain of salt"—including
> mine. Some
> > > will tell you that you only need to pursue a program that would allow
> you
> > > to take the registry once completed. I think it's imperative to
> accomplish
> > > college credits for any educational program you pursue. The reason
> being,
> > > you will be able to take those credits with you to another institution
> and
> > > accomplish the higher degree.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A BS degree in imaging science is a great thing to have for all of the
> > > career paths and for the management and upward mobility potential that
> > > *might* limit a tech with an AS degree alone- *I say might because I am
> > > privileged to work with some phenomenal elite sonographers/MRI & CT
> > > technologists who came from hospital based programs.* Bottom line, as
> in
> > > any field, the more education you have the more qualified you are for a
> > > given position. Although, it is not the only consideration. Attention
> > > should be paid to: management training and experience, in addition to
> time
> > > spent functioning within the multitude of capacities expected of our
> career
> > > field. I would highly recommend a BS degree. The job market is tough
> out
> > > there and you will be more marketable with a BS degree.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Advisory focuses on MRI &CT Medicare program policies. Policies may
> apply
> > > to selected private payers in addressing coding, coverage, and payment
> for
> > > diagnostic CT & MRI and Interventional procedures. Fortunately,
> according
> > > to American Society of Radiologic Technologists (ASRT), salaries do
> > > increase for those who possess an advanced educational degree, along
> with
> > > the knowledge and skills for advanced practice. I am surprised and
> it’s an
> > > injustice that this is not the case for the sonography field.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ~lv
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > *Laura Vasquez, Ph.D.(C), RVT (ARDMS), RT (R), (MR), (ARRT)*
> > >
> > > Program Director, Imaging Sciences Program
> > >
> > > Associate Chairperson, Department of Medical Physics & Advanced Imaging
> > >
> > > Chairperson, CHS Diversity Committee
> > >
> > > Rush University, College of Health Sciences
> > > 600 South Paulina Street
> > >
> > > 764A Armour Academic Center
> > >
> > > Chicago, Illinois 60612-3244
> > > Tel: (312) 942-2842
> > >
> > >
> > > “By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail.”
> > >
> > > *Benjamin Franklin*
> > > <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/b/benjamin_franklin.html>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > *From:* UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> > > <[log in to unmask]>] *On Behalf Of *jeremy orlikoski
> > > *Sent:* Monday, May 2, 2016 9:40 AM
> > > *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> > > *Subject:* Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dang! Time to relocate.... Don't come to Austin, TX not much better
> here
> > > either.
> > >
> > > Jeremy Orlikoski
> > >
> > >
> > > On May 2, 2016, at 9:37 AM, Andrew Bebry <[log in to unmask]
> > > <[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Steve:
> > >
> > > I understand that, thanks. I respect your input and experience very
> much
> > > Steve.
> > >
> > > Here on Long Island however, some of my peer cardiothoracic and
> vascular
> > > surgeons that I have worked with for decades have been semi-suddenly
> let go
> > > for new hires. They were furious! This is disgusting!! Now my immediate
> > > area has NOONE to go vein grafts. They just do quick synthetic fem-pops
> > > cause its easier and saves time. Three of my local hospitals does NOT
> have
> > > a staff vascular surgeon on standby in these facilities. There is one
> > > contracted doc to handle all three and the doc has to rent space from
> the
> > > hospital in order to see patients there. Many of those cases are sent
> to
> > > other linked hospitals. I know certain hospitals are better suited for
> > > certain procedures, but why put patients out by transferring them for
> > > procedures we routinely used to do here? The local conglomerate
> > > administrators and making millions each and cut salaries on employees.
> Did
> > > you know that "our" local system spent $85 million on a NAME CHANGE.
> Did
> > > nothing for patients. Did nothing for employees. Each employee (all 61
> > > million) could have gotten a $1 million raise; they would then love to
> work
> > > there; the consensus is a bad attitude toward the system. Say more
> > > prayers. Sincerely, Andy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Steve Knight <[log in to unmask]
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > Andrew the ACS credential is a reality for echo and several people have
> > > achieved it already. I think the pay for somebody with 18 months of
> applied
> > > technology training at community college (only a portion of which is
> > > didactic) is fair to the new hire. Those same people have a very
> limited
> > > role as new grads and have limited career flexibility should they give
> up
> > > or lose their job. Somebody with a baccalaureate degree (or higher) has
> > > many more options as far as career path goes. Until a higher level of
> > > education is required to practice ultrasound, business will be
> business and
> > > hire accordingly.
> > > Steve
> > >
> > > On May 2, 2016 7:07 AM, "Andrew Bebry" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Jeremy. I believe this topic has come up before. Not likely the
> > > credential will be a reality. Facilities do not want to pay more for
> codes
> > > they are already getting paid for. As a matter of FACT, 'facilities'
> are
> > > hiring techs real cheap right out of school and when private offices
> are
> > > acquired, the techs are taking a $10 PER HOUR CUT for the same work.
> Who
> > > would want the additional liability when you are not rewarded for your
> > > efforts and training? Gee, sounds like socialization. Sorry for the
> truth.
> > > Just my 'opinion.' Andy Bebry Rvt Rcs
> > >
> > > On May 2, 2016 9:59 AM, "jeremy orlikoski" <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > How would a practitioner's salary compare to a sonographer with 10-15
> > > years of experience? Because at 10-15 years we're already maxed out at
> most
> > > facilities.
> > >
> > >
> > > Jeremy Orlikoski
> > >
> > >
> > > On May 2, 2016, at 8:30 AM, Phan, James <[log in to unmask]
> > > <[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> > >
> > > I am in support of the ACS credential. However, The minimum requirement
> > > for the sonographer in my opinion should be upgraded to at least an
> > > associated degree and to me a bachelor is preferred.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > James Phan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > *From:* UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> > > <[log in to unmask]>] *On Behalf Of *Terrence Case
> > > *Sent:* Monday, May 02, 2016 5:29 AM
> > > *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> > > *Subject:* Re: Ultrasound Practioner
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Steve I believe 100% that the basic core of education for the position
> of
> > > ultrasound practitioner, should be at minimum a baccalaureate degree.
> Terry
> > > Case
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > >
> > > On May 2, 2016, at 1:07 AM, Steve Knight <[log in to unmask]
> > > <[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Jay thank you for sharing Mr. Horton's letter. I have yet to read the
> full
> > > white paper (the link will only get me as far as the abstract without a
> > > paid membership of the ASE.)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The blue paper from 2007 contains the following passage: "The ACS
> > > profession requires additional curriculum beyond a bachelor’s degree
> and an
> > > internship (with a proposed higher level credential)".
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The spirit of that passage has not been followed by the CCI. I'm glad
> that
> > > advanced practice is starting to gain some ground but it is still my
> > > opinion that the minimum level of education for the CCI ACS credential
> > > should be a baccalaureate degree and not a high school diploma.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Steve Knight
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Terrence Case <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Excellent review. Thank you. Terry Case
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > >
> > > On May 1, 2016, at 2:58 PM, Jay Shafer <[log in to unmask]
> > > <[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Good afternoon,
> > >
> > > I am sharing this response from Ken Horton the president of CCI. It is
> > > sent on behalf of the CCI leadership team in the hope that it helps in
> the
> > > conversation.
> > >
> > > Jay Shafer
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In cardiac echo there is not a true "mid-level provider"
> > >
> > > 1. The Advanced Cardiac Sonographer (ACS) examination was developed by
> > > Cardiovascular Credentialing International (CCI) at the request of the
> > > American Society of Echocardiography (ASE) and the Committee on
> > > Accreditation – Advanced Cardiac Sonographer (CoA-ACS). In 2008 a white
> > > paper was published in JASE identifying a need for an advanced level
> > > sonographer. I recommend you read this article that describes the role
> of
> > > the ACS as it was originally envisioned.
> > >
> > > Link to the ASE White Paper
> > > <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.onlinejase.com_article_S0894-2D7317-2809-2900907-2D9_pdf&d=CwMFaQ&c=XxU8ngzB_WPJXKyiin_6iQ&r=XVp7Tb8BN3KWjNN6H53AT3cHTZses366O0j2JhrKMu4&m=tP1SpeAL1Xl8LxvxPV_vb_T-HRz8Wez104_UGEfXiNw&s=yV02ws1mokP9IBsHolWYp9asn-MX9bE6Lso8xSZBbhw&e=
> >
> > >
> > > 2. There is not a true "mid-level provider" in cardiac echo. There have
> > > been two blue pages written in JASE that also describe the role of the
> ACS
> > > I encourage you to read these blue pages.
> > >
> > > Link to blue page Feb 2012 – Michelle Bierig
> > > <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.onlinejase.com_article_S0894-2D7317-2811-2900965-2D5_pdf&d=CwMFaQ&c=XxU8ngzB_WPJXKyiin_6iQ&r=XVp7Tb8BN3KWjNN6H53AT3cHTZses366O0j2JhrKMu4&m=tP1SpeAL1Xl8LxvxPV_vb_T-HRz8Wez104_UGEfXiNw&s=QUgFhoLZVwH7KQBZovbHxz9KxPVMS2aG6ISI-qs4yZg&e=
> >
> > >
> > > Link to blue page May 2015 - Matt Umland
> > > <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.onlinejase.com_article_S0894-2D7317-2815-2900182-2D0_pdf&d=CwMFaQ&c=XxU8ngzB_WPJXKyiin_6iQ&r=XVp7Tb8BN3KWjNN6H53AT3cHTZses366O0j2JhrKMu4&m=tP1SpeAL1Xl8LxvxPV_vb_T-HRz8Wez104_UGEfXiNw&s=pLXhvyNR92pRDEFQj1HmoBZ20MXWWTiq4PaJJQNov34&e=
> >
> > >
> > > 3. The ACS examination is an advanced level examination used to assess
> an
> > > advanced level of knowledge. It goes beyond the entry level concepts
> that
> > > are assessed by the RCS and RDCS examinations. When the ACS exam was
> > > developed it was assumed there would be educational programs created
> and
> > > the graduates would take the exam. Experiential pathways were added to
> > > bridge the gap until enough educational programs were created to
> support
> > > the exam. At this time there are two (that I am aware of) ACS programs
> > > accepting students. Currently all applicants that have taken the exam
> have
> > > used the experiential pathways.
> > >
> > > 4. The ACS Examination Booklet has the answers to all your questions.
> > > The booklet has all the prerequisites (page 5) for taking the
> examination,
> > > the examination matrix )page 7) broke down by percentage (a perfect
> guide
> > > to help you “budget” your study time), and a list of study references
> (page
> > > 7). CCI does not endorse any particular reference over another. Also,
> the
> > > ASE is in the early phases of developing an exam review course. This
> will
> > > take some time and I suspect a product won’t be available for 10-12
> > > months. This is a link to the ACS exam booklet that has all this
> > > information.
> > >
> > > Link to ACS Exam Booklet
> > > <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__cci-2Donline.org_sites_default_files_2015-2520ACS-2520App-2520Book-2DFINAL.pdf&d=CwMFaQ&c=XxU8ngzB_WPJXKyiin_6iQ&r=XVp7Tb8BN3KWjNN6H53AT3cHTZses366O0j2JhrKMu4&m=tP1SpeAL1Xl8LxvxPV_vb_T-HRz8Wez104_UGEfXiNw&s=WN_7cgtHX8RA08T-v6Dg2_vhgEq4AOt4GLHgWT5_tKU&e=
> >
> > >
> > > 5. As heath care and reimbursement models change we will see the role
> of
> > > the sonographer change and potentially a broadening of our scope of
> > > practice. I applaud the ASE, the Council on Cardiovascular Sonography
> and
> > > the CoA-ACS on their forward thinking. I feel the creation of this
> pathway
> > > is the first step in preparing sonography for these changes.
> > >
> > > Please feel free to respond to this post or to me directly (
> > > [log in to unmask]) with any other questions you have.
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > > Ken Horton ACS, RCS, FASE
> > > President, Cardiovascular Credentialing International (CCI)
> > > Intermountain Heart Institute
> > > Intermountain Medical Center
> > > Murray, Utah
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Apr 30, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Terrence Case <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Anyone familiar with this term or know anyone using it?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Terry Case
> > >
> > > Sent from iCloud
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:
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> > > <
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> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Jay Shafer
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Lead with your heart, follow with your mind and let your spirit soar!!
> > >
> > > -Shafer
> > >
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> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 17:23:23 +0000
> > From: Audrey Fleming <[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
> >
> > Jeremy,
> > I would agree to an extent. The idea that a well rounded sonographer is
> lacking in some way.
> > This discussion has been going on for 5, 10, 15 or more years here on
> Flownet. I know, I have been participating in the discussions!
> > I have always advocated for a single education pathway for sonography.
> We should follow the lead of other medical areas. Physicians must study
> everything before specializing, nurses must do the same, radiographer
> etc.Have it at a level either associate's or Bachelor Level. everyone
> studies the same thing and has the same foundation. Then if someone wants
> to specialize then have advanced courses for specialization. This could
> lead to an advanced level certification and practice.
> > In this scenario everyone has the same foundation and all the "my job is
> harder", "what I do has more responsibility", " I had to learn more" would
> go away. But I have been a proponent of this for 20 years and know it will
> never happen.
> > Audrey
> >
> > From: jeremy orlikoski <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 5:05 PM
> > Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
> >
> > Laura,
> > I totally agree with you. If I could reset the clock and start over
> again I would go through a 4 year program but after 14 years in the field
> going back to school for 3-4 years to make the same salary as I do now
> doesn't financially make any sense. But I also love what I do everyday.
> Seeing patients and interacting with them is what makes me get out of bed
> every morning (and middle of the night for a r/o DVT in the ER). Management
> has NO appeal for me and I'm sure for many other people, so the 4 year
> degree would be wasted on them.
> > I always explain to people that what I do is just a trade. Like a
> plumber or carpenter.... It's a skill that takes both knowledge and
> physical ability to perform the job. Now we all know there is a HUGE
> difference between a master plumber and a regular plumber same goes for a
> general carpenter and a finish carpenter. Both jobs require the minimal
> training for the base level career but the master plumber and finish
> carpenter require skills that not every plumber or carpenter will ever
> posses no matter how much they study and take tests. Sonography is they
> same way. There are thousands of us sonographer in this country. Most of us
> are very dedicated to our chosen careers but there are some sonographers
> who's technical ability and knowledge surpasses the rest. I've had the
> privilege to work with some of these individuals. In our chosen field there
> is no way to distinguish one of these individuals from the rest of us
> because there's no monetary advantage in obtaining any additio!
> > nal credentials. If you've never hired a plumber or a carpenter then you
> don't know there's a HUGE cost difference between a general carpenter and a
> finish carpenter; with sonography there is no difference in cost to the
> patient when getting an ultrasound done by an unaccredited, 2 year college
> sonographer and a sonographer with a Bachelor degree. So the advanced
> sonographer credential realistically would just let us 'toot our horns'
> regarding our credentials to others in the sonography field but concisely
> benefit us or our employers....
> > More credentials don't mean that you're a better sonographer then the
> next person, my personal experience is the more registries you have the
> less competent you are at the individual modalities. Each ultrasound
> modality requires an enormous amount of knowledge and physical ability to
> perform with a high accuracy. Once you 'water down' your training with
> general, vascular, throw in OB/GYN for good measure too, you now have the
> entire human body to interrogate from gestation to death.... That's just
> too much information, in today's medical world, to absorb and regurgitate
> on demand and require individuals to physically perform all the required
> examinations.
> > Dang... Sorry the train left the tracks on this tread.
> > Back to the main topic... What was it again....
> >
> > Jeremy Orlikoski
> > On May 2, 2016, at 10:17 AM, Laura Vasquez <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >
> >
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> {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv9514792000
> div.yiv9514792000WordSection1 {}-->Tuition cost should be justified by
> receiving the highest level and quality of the education and this endeavor
> should be looked as an investment. What you will make your first year out
> of school sh!
> > ould surpass the total tuition cost. Typically, that is how you should
> > approach any educational investment. Regardless of the sources that
> have given you their perspective, I think you have to take people's
> opinions "with a grain of salt"—including mine.Some will tell you that you
> only need to pursue a program that would allow you to take the registry
> once completed. I think it's imperative to accomplish college credits for
> any educational program you pursue. The reason being, you will be able to
> take those credits with you to another institution and accomplish the
> higher degree. A BS degree in imaging science is a great thing to have
> for all of the career paths and for the management and upward mobility
> potential thatmight limit a tech with an AS degree alone- I say might
> because I am privileged to work with some phenomenal elite sonographers/MRI
> & CT technologists who came from hospital based programs. Bottom line, as
> in any field, the more education you have the more qualified you are for a
> given position. Although, it is not th!
> > e only consideration. Attention should be paid to: management training
> and experience, in addition to time spent functioning within the multitude
> of capacities expected of our career field. I would highly recommend a BS
> degree. The job market is tough out there and you will be more marketable
> with a BS degree. Advisory focuses on MRI &CT Medicare program policies.
> Policies may apply to selected private payers in addressing coding,
> coverage, and payment for diagnostic CT & MRI and Interventional
> procedures.Fortunately, according to American Society of Radiologic
> Technologists (ASRT), salaries do increase for those who possess an
> advanced educational degree, along with the knowledge and skills for
> advanced practice. I am surprised and it’s an injustice that this is not
> the case for the sonography field. ~lv Laura Vasquez, Ph.D.(C), RVT
> (ARDMS), RT (R), (MR), (ARRT) Program Director, Imaging Sciences Program
> Associate Chairperson, Department of !
> > Medical Physics & Advanced Imaging Chairperson, CHS Diversity Committ
> > ee Rush University, College of Health Sciences
> > 600 South Paulina Street 764A Armour Academic Center
> Chicago, Illinois 60612-3244
> > Tel: (312) 942-2842
> >
> > “By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail.” Benjamin Franklin
> From: UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of jeremy
> orlikoski
> > Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 9:40 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner Dang! Time to relocate.... Don't
> come to Austin, TX not much better here either.
> >
> > Jeremy Orlikoski
> > On May 2, 2016, at 9:37 AM, Andrew Bebry <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Steve: I understand that, thanks. I respect your input and experience
> very much Steve. Here on Long Island however, some of my peer
> cardiothoracic and vascular surgeons that I have worked with for decades
> have been semi-suddenly let go for new hires. They were furious! This is
> disgusting!! Now my immediate area has NOONE to go vein grafts. They just
> do quick synthetic fem-pops cause its easier and saves time. Three of my
> local hospitals does NOT have a staff vascular surgeon on standby in these
> facilities. There is one contracted doc to handle all three and the doc
> has to rent space from the hospital in order to see patients there. Many
> of those cases are sent to other linked hospitals. I know certain
> hospitals are better suited for certain procedures, but why put patients
> out by transferring them for procedures we routinely used to do here? The
> local conglomerate administrators and making millions each and cut salaries
> on employees. Did you know that "ou!
> > r" local system spent $85 million on a NAME CHANGE. Did nothing for
> patients. Did nothing for employees. Each employee (all 61 million) could
> have gotten a $1 million raise; they would then love to work there; the
> consensus is a bad attitude toward the system. Say more prayers.
> Sincerely, Andy On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Steve Knight <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Andrew the ACS credential is a reality for echo and several people have
> achieved it already. I think the pay for somebody with 18 months of applied
> technology training at community college (only a portion of which is
> didactic) is fair to the new hire. Those same people have a very limited
> role as new grads and have limited career flexibility should they give up
> or lose their job. Somebody with a baccalaureate degree (or higher) has
> many more options as far as career path goes. Until a higher level of
> education is required to practice ultrasound, business will be business and
> hire accordingly.
> > Steve On May 2, 2016 7:07 AM, "Andrew Bebry" <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > Jeremy. I believe this topic has come up before. Not likely the
> credential will be a reality. Facilities do not want to pay more for codes
> they are already getting paid for. As a matter of FACT, 'facilities' are
> hiring techs real cheap right out of school and when private offices are
> acquired, the techs are taking a $10 PER HOUR CUT for the same work. Who
> would want the additional liability when you are not rewarded for your
> efforts and training? Gee, sounds like socialization. Sorry for the truth.
> Just my 'opinion.' Andy Bebry Rvt Rcs On May 2, 2016 9:59 AM, "jeremy
> orlikoski" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > How would a practitioner's salary compare to a sonographer with 10-15
> years of experience? Because at 10-15 years we're already maxed out at most
> facilities.
> > Jeremy Orlikoski
> > On May 2, 2016, at 8:30 AM, Phan, James <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > I am in support of the ACS credential. However, The minimum requirement
> for the sonographer in my opinion should be upgraded to at least an
> associated degree and to me a bachelor is preferred. Respectfully,
> James Phan From: UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf
> Of Terrence Case
> > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2016 5:29 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Ultrasound Practioner Steve I believe 100% that the basic
> core of education for the position of ultrasound practitioner, should be
> at minimum a baccalaureate degree. Terry Case
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> > On May 2, 2016, at 1:07 AM, Steve Knight <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > Jay thank you for sharing Mr. Horton's letter. I have yet to read the
> full white paper (the link will only get me as far as the abstract without
> a paid membership of the ASE.) The blue paper from 2007 contains the
> following passage: "The ACS profession requires additional curriculum
> beyond a bachelor’s degree and an internship (with a proposed higher level
> credential)". The spirit of that passage has not been followed by the
> CCI. I'm glad that advanced practice is starting to gain some ground but it
> is still my opinion that the minimum level of education for the CCI ACS
> credential should be a baccalaureate degree and not a high school diploma.
> Respectfully, Steve Knight On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Terrence
> Case <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Excellent review. Thank you. Terry Case
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> > On May 1, 2016, at 2:58 PM, Jay Shafer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Good afternoon, I am sharing this response from Ken Horton the president
> of CCI. It is sent on behalf of the CCI leadership team in the hope that
> it helps in the conversation. Jay Shafer In cardiac echo there is not a
> true "mid-level provider" 1. The Advanced Cardiac Sonographer (ACS)
> examination was developed by Cardiovascular Credentialing International
> (CCI) at the request of the American Society of Echocardiography (ASE) and
> the Committee on Accreditation – Advanced Cardiac Sonographer (CoA-ACS).
> In 2008 a white paper was published in JASE identifying a need for an
> advanced level sonographer. I recommend you read this article that
> describes the role of the ACS as it was originally envisioned. Link to the
> ASE White Paper 2. There is not a true "mid-level provider" in cardiac
> echo. There have been two blue pages written in JASE that also describe
> the role of the ACS I encourage you to read these blue pages. Link to blue
> page Feb 2012 – Michelle Bi!
> > erig Link to blue page May 2015 - Matt Umland 3. The ACS examination is
> an advanced level examination used to assess an advanced level of
> knowledge. It goes beyond the entry level concepts that are assessed by the
> RCS and RDCS examinations. When the ACS exam was developed it was assumed
> there would be educational programs created and the graduates would take
> the exam. Experiential pathways were added to bridge the gap until
> enough educational programs were created to support the exam. At this time
> there are two (that I am aware of) ACS programs accepting students.
> Currently all applicants that have taken the exam have used the
> experiential pathways. 4. The ACS Examination Booklet has the answers to
> all your questions. The booklet has all the prerequisites (page 5) for
> taking the examination, the examination matrix )page 7) broke down by
> percentage (a perfect guide to help you “budget” your study time), and a
> list of study references (page 7). CCI doe!
> > s not endorse any particular reference over another. Also, the ASE is
> > in the early phases of developing an exam review course. This will take
> some time and I suspect a product won’t be available for 10-12 months.
> This is a link to the ACS exam booklet that has all this information. Link
> to ACS Exam Booklet 5. As heath care and reimbursement models change we
> will see the role of the sonographer change and potentially a broadening of
> our scope of practice. I applaud the ASE, the Council on Cardiovascular
> Sonography and the CoA-ACS on their forward thinking. I feel the creation
> of this pathway is the first step in preparing sonography for these
> changes. Please feel free to respond to this post or to me directly (
> [log in to unmask]) with any other questions you have.
> ------------------------------
> > Ken Horton ACS, RCS, FASE
> > President, Cardiovascular Credentialing International (CCI)
> > Intermountain Heart Institute
> > Intermountain Medical Center
> > Murray, Utah On Sat, Apr 30, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Terrence Case <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Anyone familiar with this term or know anyone using it? Terry Case
> Sent from iCloud To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link
> to:http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
> >
> >
> > -- Jay Shafer Lead with your heart, follow with your mind and let
> your spirit soar!! -Shafer To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM
> Flownet link to:http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
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> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 11:36:54 -0700
> > From: jeremy orlikoski <[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
> >
> > Audrey,
> > I've never heard of that idea before and I think it's brilliant (which
> means it will never come to be..). I went to a school that taught us ABD,
> OB and vascular. Not enough time was given to any one modality to allow us
> to be a proficient sonographer. It put all the responsibility on the
> employer to finish our training. I know I could fumble my way through an OB
> exam from the limited training that I received and have some radiologist
> read it but I professionally and ethically would not perform the
> examination because I know all things that I could easily miss. Ultrasound
> is a very important diagnostic tool. Facilities around the country have
> forgotten WHY we use this technology and WHY we need competent individuals
> performing these examinations. My local hospital HR person stopped by my
> surgeons office the other day because my surgeon has been complaining about
> how inaccurate the hospitals sonographers are when doing vascular
> examinations. The HR person was asking me why the!
> > individuals were so inaccurate when they were "RVT" (the hospital
> radiology department is a general/vascular department). The HR person could
> not understand why there's no proficiency examination to become RVT. I
> explained to them that it's just a written test that you can go to a
> seminar for a weekend, where they give you all the answers to test, and
> pass the examination without ever performing an examination (I know the
> ARDMS examination requires someone to sign off for each individual taking
> the examination but I've personally witnessed individuals who have never
> scanned a patient on their own taking and passing the RVT examination).
> > RVT used to mean "Advanced Sonographer". It used to be a statement that
> the individual knew the cardiovascular system and could interrogate the
> body and accurately diagnosis a circulatory obstruction. Now it means
> "Doppler Tech" for r/o DVT in the ER so the facility doesn't loss the
> medicare reimbursements. Our field of employment is unfortunately
> regressing throughout most the country. There are fewer and fewer dedicated
> vascular labs and with the cuts to reimbursements vascular surgeons aren't
> starting new practices, which all leads to fewer needs for a vascular
> sonographer. Vein clinics have been the only area of growth for jobs in our
> profession for the last couple years (I don't mind doing veins now and then
> but I couldn't do reflux testing all day every day... Doing 1 test all day
> every day, Even a lowly echo tech gets to do a stress test now and then. :)
> ).
> >
> >
> > Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 17:23:23 +0000
> > From: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >
> > Jeremy,
> > I would agree to an extent. The idea that a well rounded sonographer is
> lacking in some way.
> > This discussion has been going on for 5, 10, 15 or more years here on
> Flownet. I know, I have been participating in the discussions!
> > I have always advocated for a single education pathway for sonography.
> We should follow the lead of other medical areas. Physicians must study
> everything before specializing, nurses must do the same, radiographer
> etc.Have it at a level either associate's or Bachelor Level. everyone
> studies the same thing and has the same foundation. Then if someone wants
> to specialize then have advanced courses for specialization. This could
> lead to an advanced level certification and practice.
> > In this scenario everyone has the same foundation and all the "my job is
> harder", "what I do has more responsibility", " I had to learn more" would
> go away. But I have been a proponent of this for 20 years and know it will
> never happen.
> > Audrey
> >
> > From: jeremy orlikoski <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 5:05 PM
> > Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
> >
> > Laura,
> > I totally agree with you. If I could reset the clock and start over
> again I would go through a 4 year program but after 14 years in the field
> going back to school for 3-4 years to make the same salary as I do now
> doesn't financially make any sense. But I also love what I do everyday.
> Seeing patients and interacting with them is what makes me get out of bed
> every morning (and middle of the night for a r/o DVT in the ER). Management
> has NO appeal for me and I'm sure for many other people, so the 4 year
> degree would be wasted on them.
> > I always explain to people that what I do is just a trade. Like a
> plumber or carpenter.... It's a skill that takes both knowledge and
> physical ability to perform the job. Now we all know there is a HUGE
> difference between a master plumber and a regular plumber same goes for a
> general carpenter and a finish carpenter. Both jobs require the minimal
> training for the base level career but the master plumber and finish
> carpenter require skills that not every plumber or carpenter will ever
> posses no matter how much they study and take tests. Sonography is they
> same way. There are thousands of us sonographer in this country. Most of us
> are very dedicated to our chosen careers but there are some sonographers
> who's technical ability and knowledge surpasses the rest. I've had the
> privilege to work with some of these individuals. In our chosen field there
> is no way to distinguish one of these individuals from the rest of us
> because there's no monetary advantage in obtaining any additio!
> > nal credentials. If you've never hired a plumber or a carpenter then you
> don't know there's a HUGE cost difference between a general carpenter and a
> finish carpenter; with sonography there is no difference in cost to the
> patient when getting an ultrasound done by an unaccredited, 2 year college
> sonographer and a sonographer with a Bachelor degree. So the advanced
> sonographer credential realistically would just let us 'toot our horns'
> regarding our credentials to others in the sonography field but concisely
> benefit us or our employers....
> > More credentials don't mean that you're a better sonographer then the
> next person, my personal experience is the more registries you have the
> less competent you are at the individual modalities. Each ultrasound
> modality requires an enormous amount of knowledge and physical ability to
> perform with a high accuracy. Once you 'water down' your training with
> general, vascular, throw in OB/GYN for good measure too, you now have the
> entire human body to interrogate from gestation to death.... That's just
> too much information, in today's medical world, to absorb and regurgitate
> on demand and require individuals to physically perform all the required
> examinations.
> > Dang... Sorry the train left the tracks on this tread.
> > Back to the main topic... What was it again....
> >
> > Jeremy Orlikoski
> > On May 2, 2016, at 10:17 AM, Laura Vasquez <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Tuition cost should be justified by receiving the highest level and
> quality of the education and this endeavor should be looked as an
> investment. What you will make your first year out of school
> > should surpass the total tuition cost. Typically, that is how you should
> approach any educational investment.
> >
> > Regardless of the sources that have given you their perspective, I think
> you have to take people's opinions "with a grain of salt"—including mine.
> > Some will tell you that you only need to pursue a program that would
> allow you to take the registry once completed. I think it's imperative to
> accomplish college credits for any educational program you pursue.
> > The reason being, you will be able to take those credits with you to
> another institution and accomplish the higher degree.
> >
> >
> > A BS degree in imaging science is a great thing to have for all of the
> career paths and for the management and upward mobility potential that
> > might limit a tech with an AS degree alone- I say might because I am
> privileged to work with some phenomenal elite sonographers/MRI & CT
> technologists who came from hospital based programs. Bottom line, as in any
> field, the more
> > education you have the more qualified you are for a given position.
> Although, it is not the only consideration. Attention should be paid to:
> management training and experience, in addition to time spent functioning
> within the multitude of capacities expected
> > of our career field. I would highly recommend a BS degree. The job
> market is tough out there and you will be more marketable with a BS degree.
> >
> > Advisory focuses on MRI &CT Medicare program policies. Policies may
> apply to selected private payers in addressing coding,
> > coverage, and payment for diagnostic CT & MRI and Interventional
> procedures.
> > Fortunately, according to American Society of Radiologic Technologists
> (ASRT), salaries do increase for those who possess an advanced educational
> degree, along with the knowledge and skills for
> > advanced practice. I am surprised and it’s an injustice that this is not
> the case for the sonography field.
> >
> >
> > ~lv
> >
> >
> >
> > Laura Vasquez, Ph.D.(C), RVT (ARDMS), RT (R), (MR), (ARRT)
> > Program Director, Imaging Sciences Program
> > Associate Chairperson, Department of Medical Physics & Advanced Imaging
> > Chairperson, CHS Diversity Committee
> > Rush University, College of Health Sciences
> >
> > 600 South Paulina Street
> > 764A Armour Academic Center
> > Chicago, Illinois 60612-3244
> >
> > Tel: (312) 942-2842
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > “By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail.”
> > Benjamin Franklin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > On Behalf Of jeremy orlikoski
> >
> > Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 9:40 AM
> >
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >
> > Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dang! Time to relocate.... Don't come to Austin, TX not much better here
> either.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jeremy Orlikoski
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On May 2, 2016, at 9:37 AM, Andrew Bebry <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve:
> >
> > I understand that, thanks. I respect your input and experience very much
> Steve.
> >
> >
> > Here on Long Island however, some of my peer cardiothoracic and vascular
> surgeons that I have worked with for decades have been semi-suddenly let go
> for new hires. They were furious! This is disgusting!! Now my immediate
> area has NOONE
> > to go vein grafts. They just do quick synthetic fem-pops cause its
> easier and saves time. Three of my local hospitals does NOT have a staff
> vascular surgeon on standby in these facilities. There is one contracted
> doc to handle all three and the doc has
> > to rent space from the hospital in order to see patients there. Many of
> those cases are sent to other linked hospitals. I know certain hospitals
> are better suited for certain procedures, but why put patients out by
> transferring them for procedures we routinely
> > used to do here? The local conglomerate administrators and making
> millions each and cut salaries on employees. Did you know that "our" local
> system spent $85 million on a NAME CHANGE. Did nothing for patients. Did
> nothing for employees. Each employee (all
> > 61 million) could have gotten a $1 million raise; they would then love
> to work there; the consensus is a bad attitude toward the system. Say more
> prayers. Sincerely, Andy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Steve Knight <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Andrew the ACS credential is a reality for echo and several people have
> achieved it already. I think the pay for somebody with 18 months of applied
> technology training at community college (only a portion of which is
> didactic) is fair to the new hire. Those
> > same people have a very limited role as new grads and have limited
> career flexibility should they give up or lose their job. Somebody with a
> baccalaureate degree (or higher) has many more options as far as career
> path goes. Until a higher level of education
> > is required to practice ultrasound, business will be business and hire
> accordingly.
> >
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> >
> > On May 2, 2016 7:07 AM, "Andrew Bebry" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Jeremy. I believe this topic has come up before. Not likely the
> credential will be a reality. Facilities do not want to pay more for codes
> they are already getting paid for. As a matter of FACT, 'facilities' are
> hiring techs real cheap right out of school
> > and when private offices are acquired, the techs are taking a $10 PER
> HOUR CUT for the same work. Who would want the additional liability when
> you are not rewarded for your efforts and training? Gee, sounds like
> socialization. Sorry for the truth. Just my
> > 'opinion.' Andy Bebry Rvt Rcs
> >
> > On May 2, 2016 9:59 AM, "jeremy orlikoski" <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > How would a practitioner's salary compare to a sonographer with 10-15
> years of experience? Because at 10-15 years we're already maxed out at most
> facilities.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Jeremy Orlikoski
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On May 2, 2016, at 8:30 AM, Phan, James <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I am in support of the ACS credential. However, The minimum requirement
> for the sonographer in my opinion
> > should be upgraded to at least an associated degree and to me a bachelor
> is preferred.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > James Phan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > On Behalf Of Terrence Case
> >
> > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2016 5:29 AM
> >
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >
> > Subject: Re: Ultrasound Practioner
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve I believe 100% that the basic core of education for the position
> of ultrasound practitioner, should be at minimum a baccalaureate degree.
> Terry Case
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On May 2, 2016, at 1:07 AM, Steve Knight <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Jay thank you for sharing Mr. Horton's letter. I have yet to read the
> full white paper (the link will only get me as far as the abstract without
> a paid membership of the ASE.)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The blue paper from 2007 contains the following passage: "The ACS
> profession requires additional curriculum beyond a bachelor’s degree and an
> internship (with a proposed higher
> > level credential)".
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The spirit of that passage has not been followed by the CCI. I'm glad
> that advanced practice is starting to gain some ground but it is still my
> opinion that the minimum level of
> > education for the CCI ACS credential should be a baccalaureate degree
> and not a high school diploma.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve Knight
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Terrence Case <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Excellent review. Thank you. Terry Case
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On May 1, 2016, at 2:58 PM, Jay Shafer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Good afternoon,
> > I am sharing this response from Ken Horton the president of CCI. It is
> sent on behalf of the CCI leadership team in the hope that
> > it helps in the conversation.
> > Jay Shafer
> >
> >
> > In cardiac echo there is not a true "mid-level provider"
> > 1. The Advanced Cardiac Sonographer (ACS) examination was developed by
> Cardiovascular Credentialing International (CCI) at the request
> > of the American Society of Echocardiography (ASE) and the Committee on
> Accreditation – Advanced Cardiac Sonographer (CoA-ACS). In 2008 a white
> paper was published in JASE identifying a need for an advanced level
> sonographer. I recommend you read this article
> > that describes the role of the ACS as it was originally envisioned.
> > Link
> > to the ASE White Paper
> > 2. There is not a true "mid-level provider" in cardiac echo. There have
> been two blue pages written in JASE that also describe
> > the role of the ACS I encourage you to read these blue pages.
> > Link
> > to blue page Feb 2012 – Michelle Bierig
> > Link
> > to blue page May 2015 - Matt Umland
> > 3. The ACS examination is an advanced level examination used to assess
> an advanced level of knowledge. It goes beyond the entry
> > level concepts that are assessed by the RCS and RDCS examinations. When
> the ACS exam was developed it was assumed there would be educational
> programs created and the graduates would take the exam. Experiential
> pathways were added to bridge the gap until
> > enough educational programs were created to support the exam. At this
> time there are two (that I am aware of) ACS programs accepting students.
> Currently all applicants that have taken the exam have used the
> experiential pathways.
> > 4. The ACS Examination Booklet has the answers to all your questions.
> The booklet has all the prerequisites (page 5) for taking
> > the examination, the examination matrix )page 7) broke down by
> percentage (a perfect guide to help you “budget” your study time), and a
> list of study references (page 7). CCI does not endorse any particular
> reference over another. Also, the ASE is in the
> > early phases of developing an exam review course. This will take some
> time and I suspect a product won’t be available for 10-12 months. This is a
> link to the ACS exam booklet that has all this information.
> > Link
> > to ACS Exam Booklet
> > 5. As heath care and reimbursement models change we will see the role of
> the sonographer change and potentially a broadening of our
> > scope of practice. I applaud the ASE, the Council on Cardiovascular
> Sonography and the CoA-ACS on their forward thinking. I feel the creation
> of this pathway is the first step in preparing sonography for these
> changes.
> > Please feel free to respond to this post or to me directly (
> [log in to unmask])
> > with any other questions you have.
> > -----------------------------
> >
> > Ken Horton ACS, RCS, FASE
> >
> > President, Cardiovascular Credentialing International (CCI)
> >
> > Intermountain Heart Institute
> >
> > Intermountain Medical Center
> >
> > Murray, Utah
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 30, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Terrence Case <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Anyone familiar with this term or know anyone using it?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Terry Case
> >
> >
> > Sent from iCloud
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:
> >
> > http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> >
> > Jay Shafer
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Lead with your heart, follow with your mind and let your spirit soar!!
> > -Shafer
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:
> >
> > http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:
> >
> > http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> > To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:
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> >
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> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 16:32:35 -0400
> > From: Ann Marie Kupinski <[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: integration of data
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> >
> > I would like to ask how people integrate indirect and direct testing data
> > into their arterial reports. For example, a patient has normal resting
> and
> > post-exercise ABIs (no calcification) but on duplex you can clearly see a
> > stenosis in the popliteal artery with a doubling in PSV. The ultrasound
> > data thus indicates a greater than 50% stenosis. I think we have all seen
> > times when the physiologic data does not match the ultrasound data. A
> good
> > friend of mine tells me he tries hard to write his reports so that he
> avoids
> > a phone call from a referring physician.
> >
> >
> >
> > I am wondering if any of you would share how you would report these or
> other
> > similar findings
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Ann Marie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:
> > http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 20:50:41 +0000
> > From: Audrey Fleming <[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: integration of data
> >
> > I would write something along the lines of:
> > Describe the duplex findings of the stenosis and say the PSV suggest an
> aproximate 50% stenosis by duplex criteria.
> > Then describe the physiologic finding with an interpretation -
> Physiologic findings are highly suggestive of a well established collateral
> pathway providing normal resting and post exercise perfusion to the distal
> limb. Correlate clinically with physical findings and patient
> complaint/history.
> > This also depends on if the patient actually performs the exercise
> testing to an appropriate level of stress exercise.
> > Audrey
> >
> > From: Ann Marie Kupinski <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 9:32 PM
> > Subject: integration of data
> >
> > <!--#yiv0321294660 _filtered #yiv0321294660 {font-family:"Cambria
> Math";panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv0321294660
> {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv0321294660
> #yiv0321294660 p.yiv0321294660MsoNormal, #yiv0321294660
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> sans-serif;}#yiv0321294660 a:link, #yiv0321294660
> span.yiv0321294660MsoHyperlink
> {color:#0563C1;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0321294660 a:visited,
> #yiv0321294660 span.yiv0321294660MsoHyperlinkFollowed
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> 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv0321294660 div.yiv0321294660WordSection1 {}-->Hi, I
> would like to ask how people integrate indirect and dir!
> > ect testing data into their arterial reports. For example, a patient
> has normal resting and post-exercise ABIs (no calcification) but on duplex
> you can clearly see a stenosis in the popliteal artery with a doubling in
> PSV. The ultrasound data thus indicates a greater than 50% stenosis. I
> think we have all seen times when the physiologic data does not match the
> ultrasound data. A good friend of mine tells me he tries hard to write his
> reports so that he avoids a phone call from a referring physician. I am
> wondering if any of you would share how you would report these or other
> similar findings ThanksAnn Marie To unsubscribe or search other topics
> on UVM Flownet link to:http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:
> > http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of UVMFLOWNET Digest - 2 May 2016 (#2016-72)
> > ************************************************
> >
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