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SKIVT-L  May 2002, Week 3

SKIVT-L May 2002, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Dog with a bone........

From:

Tag Gross <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Vermont Skiing Discussion and Snow Reports <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 20 May 2002 00:32:59 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (205 lines)

Matt: >>The price for (awesome, yes) Tahoe steeps and deeps, for example, is
a lack of exciting trees and inbounds exploring, high
prices, ridiculously rude service, and a "cooler than thou" or "extremer
than thou" attitude.<<

Wow, I have never found any of the attitude you describe in Tahoe. In fact
my experiences out there are completely the opposite. I also have many
friends in skiing who are part of the extreme now free skiing culture and
they are very down to earth despite their fame and abilities. Let me take
just the one Tahoe area that you are familiar with. There is awesome tree
skiing off of Red Dog and loads of places to explore and the best part is
you can go anywhere you want in bounds. Things are just marked. For example
"Cliff Area". You decide where to go and what to do. You just didn't get
shown the goods. There is so much at Squaw it's sick. So much good hiking to
nice shots. KT 22 is universally acknowledged as one of the finest lift
served powder areas anywhere. If your idea of a great time is whacking
through puckerbrush well then your right back east is the place for you.


>>You need to attend a SkiVT gathering to clear up your misconceptions.
Snobs
can tell you Vail(tm) is best, while this list both tells you and shows you
why it thinks MRG, Stowe, and accompanying ski philosophy is best.<<

Let me clear up a misperception. I ski Vermont. I have skied most Vermont
areas many many many times. I happen to love Stowe. I loved the
interconnect. A lot of my upper level skills and strategies were learned at
Stowe from Stu Campbell when he was an assistant ski school director there.
If you're talking philosophy then I'm not quite sure how you can lump Stowe
and MRG together. I thought if I have any brain cells left that MRG was
founded as sort of an anti Stowe.  As far as an MRG or Stowe ski Philosophy
being best. With all due respect,I don't think that at this point in my life
that I need to be shown anything about skiing. My ski philosophy has nothing
to do with MRG or Stowe or anyplace else. It's inside me and I share it with
those that I make turns with wherever I am. I don't need a Stowe or MRG to
serve as a security blanket for me. The one thing about skiing that has
always amazed me is that no matter where you go you can always meet great
people to hang with and make turns with. That camaraderie is precious. To
think that you can  get on a chair with a stranger and take a run with them
and share somehting that is so great that it borders on spitritual is
amazing. I have made so many life long friends this way. That is what is so
surprising about your comments regarding the people at Tahoe.

Why is it that "snobs" are associated with Vail or Stratton or Aspen? Do you
really think that is true? Do snobs really go there? Why would someone
saying Vail is best make them a snob?

>>I got amazing tours
of Stowe, Jay, and MRG from SkiViTtLers with no sense of an "extreme" and a
"not extreme" class distinction.  I've found no equivalent social outlet out
West in fortysomething ski days.<<

Are you bathing regularly? Seriously. Maybe you're just not an outgoing
person. I've made friends skiing when we havn't even spoken the same
language.

>>To think that folks who only see the resort aspect are missing out on the
"best part" is just an opinion, but it's an
opinion that many folks here will justify, on demand.<<

Who is only seeing the resort aspect? If they built the Taj Mahal at a ski
area in Minnesota, I'm not going out there to ski. On the other hand all
your seeing is this perceived Disneyfication if someone develops an area.
Despite all of this back and forth with various people no one has been able
to tell me how this has affected the ski experience negatively. Stop
pretending Tremblant is not a fun mountain. It is. Read the parts of the
First Tracks article regarding the skiing. For some reason you guys have an
inabaility to seperate the two. If someone walks by you in a Bogner suit it
bums you out. Get over it.

>> How many people will miss out on the sort of fun described on this
list unless the dirtbag-elitist minority preserves its skiing subculture?<<

Is this serious? You're not really that full of it are you? This is really
some delusion. Your not only skiers but preservationist. Fill in your
Sitzmark!!!

>>I'll admit that I associate elitism with money.  Offering varied choices
at
a high price is not inclusive! >snip<

There was nothing elitist about going to Tremblant. I stayed with my family
in the brand new Westin which is a beautiful hotel with lift tikcets and
breakfast included for a week for USD 1,200.00. That my friends is a great
deal and was for top of the line accomodations. My days of staying at Round
hearth or wherever else are long over. Nothing in NE was comparable. We had
"lots of Elbow room" and "soft snow".

>>Also, being
inclusive doesn't mean that every terrain feature must be accessible by
everyone.<<

*wink* ok we'll keep them off the good stuff.

>>Acknowledging that Tremblant may have features attractive to
a certain skier demographic<<

We were talking about the skiing and about it as a family destination. He
contradicted himself to wave the duct tape flag and to preserve Intrawest
freebies in the future. You can't have it both ways.



-----Original Message-----
From: Vermont Skiing Discussion and Snow Reports
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Matthew Reagan
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 11:08 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [SKIVT-L] Dog with a bone........


I'm sure SOMEONE out there got skied this weekend can post about it!
Please!  I got stuck at work all weekend while friends are ripping up new
snow on the Sierra Crest. Mansfield moments?  Tuckerman tales?  Bueller?

On Sun, 19 May 2002 21:42:37 -0400, Tag Gross <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>I suppose that the likes of Alta, Squaw, Sun Valley,
>Taos, Jackson, Whistler etc etc. don't have enough "character" to compete
>with New England skiing for some on the list but in my never humble opinion
>there is nothing in the East that can even begin to touch just these areas
>that I mentioned.

Having been to Alta, Squaw, and Whistler specifically, I can say that these
areas have much, but certainly don't have it all.  For every new, exciting
experience I've had in the Sierra the past two seasons, I've had a longing
for aspects of MRG, Stowe, Sugarloaf, or Jay Peak.  West ain't "best" unless
you adopt a view of "skiing" as narrow as the one those on this list are
often accused of holding.  The price for (awesome, yes) Tahoe steeps and
deeps, for example, is a lack of exciting trees and inbounds exploring, high
prices, ridiculously rude service, and a "cooler than thou" or "extremer
than thou" attitude.  But hey, there's no Skitopia.  The best part of the
Sierra is, actually, dirtbag elitist: the Eastern Sierra backcountry--free,
meritocratic, world-class.

Actually, I *was* going to fly East to ski MRG this winter--and my (&#!%^#
job stopped me, not the weather.

>It's not that rejecting these is in and of itself elitist, it's that this
>rejection is often tied to the notion that grooming, snowmaking, amenities
>are for skiers who are somehow not our peers or equals and who do not have
>the same kind of appreciation for the sport. This is a type of elitism and
>complete BS.

You need to attend a SkiVT gathering to clear up your misconceptions.  Snobs
can tell you Vail(tm) is best, while this list both tells you and shows you
why it thinks MRG, Stowe, and accompanying ski philosophy is best.  Pretty
damn convincing, I must say. To think that folks who only see the resort
aspect are missing out on the "best part" is just an opinion, but it's an
opinion that many folks here will justify, on demand.  I got amazing tours
of Stowe, Jay, and MRG from SkiViTtLers with no sense of an "extreme" and a
"not extreme" class distinction.  I've found no equivalent social outlet out
West in fortysomething ski days.

>Of course none
>of the equipment advances would ever have been made if it had not been
>profitable to do so because of the "mass-market"ing of skiing. It's not so
>much that you are a dirt bag snob than a poser.

Appreciating mass-market advances is different from "corporate populism."
The former promotes the thrill of skiing, the latter says "what good for
Intrawest is good for skiing."  Be glad that you live in NYC, shielded by
population density from the worst excesses of mass marketing!  But perhaps
the Intrawest model is the only economically viable option--but it can still
suck.  How many people will miss out on the sort of fun described on this
list unless the dirtbag-elitist minority preserves its skiing subculture?
It certainly isn't an expert-only culture, as many intermediate adventurers
have learned over the last few seasons.

>Actually offering people of different means and abilities varied choices
was
>inclusive.

I'll admit that I associate elitism with money.  Offering varied choices at
a high price is not inclusive!  Yes, it may be the only way to do business,
but don't misrepresent "economically viable" with "inclusive."  Also, being
inclusive doesn't mean that every terrain feature must be accessible by
everyone.  And who offers the choice of intermediate moguls, beginner
glades, or recreational off-piste?

>As far as personal attacks, there is nothing personal in any of this. Marc
>touts his magazine here all the time. He's a journalist. What he has
written
>here and what he wrote in his review of Tremblant don't jive. He even said
>that the reason he had not posted the "crowd" pick in his original article
>was out of respect for intrawest.

Or perhaps (benefit of the doubt), the audience for FirstTracks is wider
than SkiVT-L.  Acknowledging that Tremblant may have features attractive to
a certain skier demographic is separate from acknowledging that you or your
ski buddies are not part of that demographic.

-Matt
http://reagan.mitoc.org/

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