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SKIVT-L  December 2002, Week 1

SKIVT-L December 2002, Week 1

Subject:

Re: 2 dead on the Rockpile

From:

Nick Malczyk <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Vermont Skiing Discussion and Snow Reports <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 4 Dec 2002 22:20:08 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (159 lines)

I think we're actually agreeing on a lot more things than we're disagreeing
on the more we discuss this and clarify our points of view.

>If this is what you were trying to say, then I can agree.
>Without digging up your original post, what I read was that
>you agreed that NewEngland skiers and climbers are justified
>in *not* carrying avi gear and that you would provide the
>reasons below. The only reason I saw in the remaining part
>of your post was that avi terrain is well known and often
>assigned avi ratings.

I think I was probably incomplete in what I was trying to say. In most
cases, I think New England skiers/climbers are justified in not carrying avi
gear - due to terrain, well studied and documented avalanche conditions and
easily accessible, much safer alternatives. However, when someone decides
that they want to climb something that has a significant avi danger then I
think they should take every precaution necessary. However, it is my
opinion that there are enough safe alternatives out there that you rarely
need to expose yourself to much hazard in New England. By following a few
simple rules, I've climbed in the Whites for several winters and never felt
like I exposed myself to avalanche danger (except for maybe one day I had in
Tuck's that I probably wouldn't repeat nowadays).

>My concern is that your post seemed to imply that people are
>justified in not carrying avi gear when avi danger is Low, which
>is an assertion I strongly disagree with. IMO, if you play in
>avi terrain, you should have avi gear. [Caveat: I still go into
>Tuck on Low days in the spring when conditions have setteled,
>but this is probably pretty stupid of me.]

You are right in that I don't really think it's necessary to carry avi gear
during Low danger. But I don't think you're stupid for going in there on
those days and I would support you 100% even if you did get caught in a
slide. And here's why. Low is the lowest rating the avi guys can rate the
avalanche danger. They don't rate the avi danger as nonexistant, even when
it is. Do slides still occur when it's Low? Sure, but I think they're
pretty rare. No matter how you look at it, mountaineering is all about
recognizing, accepting and balancing risk. You can bring gear and be
prepared for any eventuality, but you'll end up carrying 100 lbs of gear and
never get anywhere. As a mountaineer, I try to predict what hazards are
most likely to affect me before I head into the mountains and I prepare for
them. If the avi danger is low, I won't bring avi gear. However, the
rockfall danger may be high, in which case I'll be sure to bring a helmet.
Furthermore, since speed is safety in the mountains, I'll try to shed
extraneous gear so I can move faster and reduce my exposure while in the
danger zone. So you'll see, I feel you have to judge the relative danger of
all things involved and then act accordingly. You simply can't eliminate
risk, only minimize it.

>But, as I'll argue later, I actually think the
>rating system feeds into this problem, especially with the
>under-educated "gumbie" population.

I think you make a good point here. You, I and anyone else who exhibits
good judgement should use the rating system as a guide. Because that's all
it is, even though I think it's reputable and accurate most of the time.
It's worth paying attention to. But ultimately it's up to you to make the
call. Unfortunately, a lot of people take the rating as the final word,
don't think for themselves, and that's what leads to accidents.

>Let me clarify. Skiing on High avi days is *a* problem,
>but it is not *the* problem in terms of what produces the
>most damage. As one of the articles mentioned, the most
>number of avi incidents happen on Moderate days -- days when
>the pow-pow index is pegged and conditions are a judgement
>call; all of which conspires to suck the experienced and
>well trained among us into the chutes. The 2 deaths in GoS
>several years ago where clearly in this category. It would
>seem that the sad deaths this past weekend are in this
>category too.

True, true, true. Most avi deaths occur during Moderate days. Days rated
High are enough to keep all but the crazy out of the backcountry. But when
it comes to Low conditions, I have two somewhat contradictory opinions. On
the one hand, I wouldn't be at all surprised if more people are caught in
Low conditions than High, since people will always be lured into lower risk
conditions. However, since 90% of ALL avalanches accidents are human
triggered, it seems to me that you have to be doing a lot of stuff wrong to
get caught in Low avi conditions - it's not like they occur randomly. Bad
routefinding, bad judgement, poor rescue skills, you name it. A common
misconception with avalanches is that they strike without warning. That's
not true. There are a lot of warning signs if you know what to look for and
they're largely preventable.

>>>The problem is people hiking and skiing in traditional avi
>>>paths. As this awful incident shows, Moderate (and even Low)
>>>rated days can be deadly.
>>Again, I mostly agree with this. However, on Mt. Washington
>>virtually every ski run and ice climbing route is a traditional
>>avi path. But I don't think it's a problem for people to
>>continue to travel in these areas.

>I'm not following you here at all. Who has more of right
>to play in avi terrain? Untrained "gumbies" or enlightened
>souls with avi training and avi gear? Is it the latter?
>I think the stats clearly show that well trained and experienced
>skiers and climbers are the MOST likely to get caught and
>the most likely to put rescue workers at risk.

What I'm trying to say is that on Mt. Wasington, unlike a lot of mountains,
almost every skiing and climbing route is avalanche prone under certain
conditions because they either follow gullies or are located in a convex
bowl. A lot of other mountains have routes that are significantly safer
than their more dangerous alternatives. I'm not saying one person has more
of a right to be there than someone else. It's just a fact - many of the
Pile's routes are avalanche prone under the right conditions. I guess what
I'm trying to say is, should people just altogether stop climbing/skiing on
Mt Washington because they are inevitably located in avalanche paths? I
don't think so, because I think all of the routes can be safely climbed most
of the time, so long as you are careful.

>Nick, perhaps it is the dismissive use of the term "gumbie"
>that has me troubled here. I remember my first winter camping
>trip in Taft Lodge.

I wouldn't blame you if you thought I used the term "gumbie" more loosely
than I should. I know we all had to start somewhere and we've all made dumb
mistakes and will continue to make them despite our years of experience. I
realize that there is a learning curve that we all follow. However, I
suppose it's the most blatant examples of poor judgement that continue to
rub me the wrong way. I'm actually pretty tolerant (believe it or not) of
people making mistakes in the mountains. I don't like to pass judgement or
speculate about accidents I know little about. It's common for us to accuse
people of negligence when all we've heard is a quick sound byte or read a
brief paragraph about what happened. Lots of times if we knew the
circumstances and decisions that led up to the accident, we would understand
why the people did what they did. The "gumbie" incidents that piss me off
tend to be errors in judgement that are so poor people without any
mountaineering experience can recognize them. Examples from things I've
seen first hand - splitting up a group and leaving kids behind alone;
continuining to climb up a mountain in worsening conditions and weakening
strength while disoriented in a whiteout; and, hiking the Tuck's trail in
high heels.

>And, most frighteningly, the more we learn the more likely we are to >put
>ourselves and others at risk. Sobering.

This whole thing about the more people know about avalanches, the more
likely they are to put themselve at risk is a HUGE MISCONCEPTION. If this
were true then all of the avalanche forecasters would be dead. In fact,
they have the lowest rate of death among the various groups that are caught
in slides. THE PEOPLE WHO ARE MOST LIKELY TO GET CAUGHT IN AVALANCHES TEND
TO BE SKILLED AT THEIR GIVEN SPORT, IN EXCELLENT SHAPE, SMART, EDUCATED,
MALE, AND BETWEEN THE AGES OF 18 AND 40 - but they never took the time to
educate themselves in avi awareness. This is a small but very important
factor that needs to be considered.


Nick

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August 2002, Week 1
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