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SKIVT-L  December 2002, Week 1

SKIVT-L December 2002, Week 1

Subject:

Re: 2 dead on the Rockpile

From:

Nick Malczyk <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Vermont Skiing Discussion and Snow Reports <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 2 Dec 2002 19:16:59 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (119 lines)

>From: "Mann, Dave" <[log in to unmask]>

>>The warnings given each day should allow the prudent climber to
>>choose a safe way up the mountain.  Lots of times when there
>>is high avalanche danger in one area, it's lower (although not
>>necessarily safe) in another.

>A posted avalanche danger of LOW will *not* "allow the
>prudent climber to choose a safe way up the mountain".

You're right.  No route up a mountain will ever be without some element of
risk.  However, my point (and it seems you have taken my statement out of
context) is that by having HIGH, MEDIUM and LOW ratings you can make an
informed decision and switch from travelling in terrain rated HIGH to a
route rated LOW - where the danger is lower "although not necessarily safe".
  Can it still slide?  Yes.  Can the avalanche forecaster be wrong in his
assumption?  Sure.  But when all factors are considered, it's probably safer
in the long run to choose the route that is considered LOW by the avalanche
professional.

>All of the areas for which avi danger is posted are
>traditional avi zones.  History remains the strongest
>indication of avi danger.  If you go to these places,
>you are at risk.  Period.

Exactly.  This was a point I was trying to make.  On Mt. Washington these
avi zones are better known and documented than just about anywhere else in
the country.  So in theory, there should be little doubt whether or not you
are entering avalanche terrain.  However, when in other parts of the world
you often don't have the luxury of such studied terrain.  Yet, I think Mt.
Washington probably has one of the highest rates of avalanche accidents in
the country?  WHY?  Seems to me that avalanche related incidents should be
more preventable there than just about anywhere else.

>>I've never seen more gumbies than on Mt. Washington.

>Hike Half-Dome.  Or any trail out of the valley in
>Yosemite, for that matter.  More to the point though,
>what on earth does the gumbie-effect have to do with
>this incident?

Absolutely nothing.  I'm afraid you've taken me out of context again.  In my
first sentence I clearly stated that I was not speculating on this
particular accident.  I was just stating my opinions based on things I've
witnessed and my mountaineering experience.  Gumbies are not limited to Mt.
Washington.  They are everywhere, but unfortunately I've seen a much higher
ratio on the Pile than anywhere else (except on one climbing trip to
Oklahoma).  Having never been to Yosemite, I can't comment on it.  I can
only comment on what I've seen.

However, the gumbie effect surely has an effect on other avalanche
accidents.  Just a couple weeks ago, a couple of guys climbed the south face
of Quandary Peak here in CO and it slid on them, carrying one of them 1,800'
vertical.  Foolish.  Downright f***ing foolish because the weather
conditions were perfect for avalanches, the terrain is perfect for
avalanches and neither hikers had any bit of avi knowledge or gear.  And
they could have just as easily chosen to climb the much safer east ridge.
Remember that 19 year old French Canadian who was killed on the Pile a few
years ago in a slide?  His group was climbing the old Lion's Head winter
trail that had been closed after a landslide suddenly made it very avalanche
prone.  The AMC had already cut the new Lion's Head trail but his group
decided to ignore the posted signs for it and instead climbed right into
danger.  They hiked past several barricades that had been built to impede
the progress of gumbies.  When the slide hit, the rest of the group ran for
help (the worst thing you can do in the first few minutes of a slide).  When
the rescuers arrived, the guy was dead and they found a hand sticking out of
the snow which might have been enough to save the guy had his friends
responded somewhat properly.

>First, the vast, vast majority of the so-called "gumbie"
>problems happen in the summer and spring.  Winter conditions
>are more or less self-selecting and limit the number
>of the totally unprepared.  Not saying that there aren't
>inexperienced people out in the winter.  There are.  But
>it's nothing like the summer and fall.

Again, I fully agree with you.

>Second, the problem is not people hiking into the face
>of high avi danger.

Oh it's not?  I strongly disagree with that statement.  Hiking in the face
of high avalanche danger is like walking into the path of a loaded gun.  You
simply can't do it safely even with all the knowledge and gear.  It IS a
problem.

>The problem is people hiking and skiing in traditional avi paths.  As >this
>awful incident shows, Moderate (and even Low) rated days can be >deadly.

Again, I mostly agree with this.  However, on Mt. Washington virtually every
ski run and ice climbing route is a traditional avi path.  But I don't think
it's a problem for people to continue to travel in these areas.  They've
always been skied/climbed and always will.  Most of the time they are done
safely but you can never eliminate risk, and as such they will continue to
be deadly.

>Careful, you are going to make a good case for a
>permit system tied to the completion of an educational
>program of some sort...

I really don't see how I'm making a good case for a permit system.  I do
however, make the case for personal responsibility, common sense, and the
basic knowledge of mountaineering fundamentals.  These are absolute
essentials for anyone who plans on doing any type of travel in the
mountains.



Nick

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