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SKIVT-L  November 2003, Week 4

SKIVT-L November 2003, Week 4

Subject:

Re: Tahoe Trip ? (LONG, trust me on this one)

From:

Tom Moore <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Vermont Skiing Discussion and Snow Reports <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:46:29 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (286 lines)

On Mon, 2003-11-24 at 17:18, Jim Center wrote:
> Looking for a Tahoe trip in late Feb., probably only a five or six day outing
> Is a Reno stay out of the question? Where else could we stay that might be
> "centrally" located. Could Reno be a base of operation?, we'd almost HAVE to get a car?...

Reno is NOT out of the question but you are looking at an hour, on dry
roads, minimum to any of the Tahoe areas with the exception of Mt. Rose
and possibly Diamond Peak (not exactly sure why any out-of-towner would
want to go to there though).

If you do stay in Reno, I hope that you get AWD/4WD for two reasons:

1) Foremost, we are getting snow and that you need to use it.
2) You are on vacation and you do not want to put chains on.
Additionally some rental car companies do not allow you to put chains
on.

While our snow is not consistently lighter than the interior west, we
make up for it quantity. The area that I patrol at receives 450" or 500"
of snow depending who you ask. Storms are not considered significant
until they hit 60" in one dump. Get the idea on the amount of snow?

Most of the folks skiing in Tahoe are from the Bay or Sacramento area.
Think sea level. While the 4000' mountains around San Francisco get
dusted each year with snow, I'm not aware of SF getting snow. Sacramento
may get an inch or two in a year. These folks do not know how to drive
on snow. Basically if there is snow on the road, you will have to go to
chains if you don't have AWD/4WD. The speed limit will be 30 mph. Get
yourself AWD/4WD no matter where you are going to be staying.

Instead of staying in Reno, check out Lake Tahoe's South Shore. Despite
Tahoe's best efforts, we are essentially a weekend destination. You will
have the hill to yourself unless it is a powder day. Hill to yourself
also means that inexpensive rooms can be had during the week, Sunday
through Thursday. However that $40/night Sunday-Thursday room can be
$120 on Friday or Saturday.

The south shore has many no name motels that you probably won't find
online as well as casinos if you want to go gaming. The north shore does
have some rooms, etc. but nightlife, etc. is limited.

If you stay on the south shore, Heavenly (yawn) will be at your back
door and all other areas will be 60-90 minutes away (on dry roads). All
bets are off if it is snowing.

If you stay on the north shore, you will have four significant areas
within 30 minutes. Heavenly will be an hour away and Kirkwood will be
about two hours away.

If you are coming out here to ski and what ever night life you happen to
find, I recommend the north shore. If you are coming out here and the
night life is a significant part of the decision, recommend south shore.


Then on Mon, 2003-11-24 at 19:03, Tag Gross wrote:
> We are making a big group trip to Squaw in March. The prices that we got at
> the new Intrawest Village right at the base are unbelievable.

Not sure if Tag means that the prices are expensive or inexpensive but I
will assume that he means inexpensive.

See that Tag mentioned "Intrawest". Translated that means
"insta-faux-ski village" if that matters to you. Doesn't do much for me.
If you do stay at base, your eating choices will be limited and will be
expensive.

> They have completed 2 phases of the development and there will be no more construction
> until summer.
Most construction ceases around here because of the amount of snow.

> I have spent many many days skiing Tahoe and I can tell you that
> there is no way to ski Squaw Valley in one day. In fact it would be
> difficult to do Squaw in 2 or 3 days. Don't short change it. It's really one
> of the best ski areas in North America. Great terrain, great weather and a
> great lift system.

As much as I hate to agree with Todd, I do. A hint about Squaw: look for
the caution signs as they usually mean some interesting skiing. Another
hint about Squaw: look for the danger signs and be sure to avoid those
areas. The former are usually gully shots while the latter are
significant cliff shots.

The downside of Squaw is that the mountain doesn't have character for
me. It will get tracked out IMMEDIATELY. Squaw is so large that they can
only open one chair at a time during powder days. Imagine lemmings. They
all track to that open chair and beat up all the snow. 45 minutes later,
another chair is open and the lemmings track over there. Crowds on the
weekends can be truly nasty (upto two hours delay in leaving between
3:00 and 5:00 pm). If you are there on the weekend, get there for first
chair, go high. Around 10:30, work your way down the hill and ski the
bottom of it.

FWIW, Squaw does have the most vertical of the North Tahoe areas and
maybe all of Tahoe (Heavenly may have more) but you can't ski the entire
drop without at least one chair ride of 600'. Most of the shots are
about 1500' with KT-22 being the exception.

As to weather, all the areas out here have the same weather. We have
about 300 days of sunshine a year. Rule of thumb is that the only cloudy
days we get out here are the day before the storm or the day after the
storm. Otherwise you have one of two choices for weather: snowing
(possibly even puking) or sunshine. There is a reason I enjoy living out
here. :-)

> If you're only going to ski Squaw for a day then make sure that you don't
> ski it on a weekend. It can get crowded and they often don't open up the
> Palisades or Mainline Pocket on the weekends.

See Marc's comments about "What am I doing wrong" in regards to the
Palisades. The Palisades is a significant cliff jump (upto 100') - is
that skiing. The Chicken Chute (far skier right in the Palisades) is
just plain fun.

Squaw doesn't open up a fair number of chairs midweek as season pass
holders and the few vacationers don't warrant the expense.

There is also a new factor this year is that Alpine Meadows has dropped
their ticket price to $39/day and everybody but Squaw is scrambling to
meet the price. At the Sugar Bowl, we are cutting back on services
mid-week. All terrain will be still be accessible but redundant chairs
may not be operating as well as some eating facilities. Squaw has not
cut their prices but will probably see a revenue drop meaning a cut back
in some services.


Then On Mon, 2003-11-24 at 19:53, Edward Malczyk wrote:

> Day commutes to the best areas will be very long and even impossible
> if it snows.
Not exactly true. True that I80 as well as Nevada 431 (Reno to Lake
Tahoe) can close, the former because Donner Summit is closed (after you
make the turn off to the ski areas) and the latter because of avalanche
danger. However if the highways are closed, most of the ski areas are
closed or operating with only one chair operating (something close to
the bottom).

Have to remember that the Sierra are the first significant obstruction
the storms hit after coming off the Pacific. Wind speeds of over 80 mph
are common during the storms.

> We found driving the passes there in snow much more intimidating than
> driving in Utah or Summit County.

I disagree. Little Cottonwood, Hoosier, or Loveland are much more
"interesting" than what we have but that is just my humble opinion.

> Heavenly is only heavenly on powder days.  I had a great powder day in
> the trees there.

Heavenly is strange. Heavenly is a boring hill for me. Heavenly also has
some of most intimidating skiing for me. Mott's Canyon and Killibrew
Canyon are steep and there are some "interesting" shots down 15' wide
rock walled chutes.

As to the trees, I asked one of the PR flacks about why they don't
stress the trees. After Sonny died in the trees, they decided not to.
:-(

> The mountain is fractured in such a way that forces you to traverse
> from peak to peak with runs that are relatively short by western standards.

There is also much traversing. Bad on skis, worse than bad on a board.

> Kirkwood is a treat, though.  We had two sunny, powder days there
> too.  Great steeps, fewer trees than Heavenly, but neat terrain for
> all levels of skiers. But its over an hour drive

I like Kirkwood that one can have one run starting with a cornice drop,
some wide open steeps dropping into trees, and finally ending up in a
creek bed. Problem is that Kirkwood is in the middle of nowhere with
some serve avalanche terrain separating it from civilization.
.
> And, while I didn't ski it, Alpine Meadows is nearby, and won't
> disappoint.
Nearby as in the next ridge or valley south of Squaw. The typical local
out here buys a pass at Squaw their first couple of years out here. They
then realize that it isn't worth dealing with Squaw on many levels and
then get their pass at Alpine.

Only 1800' but it skis BIG. Much inbounds hiking if you're up for it.
Powdah can be found a day after a storm (unlike Squaw). Unfortunately
some of the more interesting terrain takes two or three chairs to get
to. But like the MRG model, the snow stays better there longer. :-)

> Sugar is a third solid option accessible in the North.
Let me know if you end up at the Bowl. Depending upon my schedule, I'll
give you a tour. Squaw has been described as a bigger version of the
Bowl. The Bowl has been described as a smaller . . .. May possibly be
able to have a ticket waiting for you if interested.

> Good trip, but remember to reserve you car early and make sure it has
> 4wd.
AMEN. To bad he didn't capitalize and use fancy fonts.


Then on Tue, 2003-11-25 at 04:48, Skip King wrote:

> 1)  Squaw can be a downright rude, unpleasant, unfriendly place to
> ski.  The mountain is fabulous; the management is less so.  Ditto for the
> skiers.  Try to hit it on a light day - or two days.
What you have to remember that Squaw's motto is "We Care". The lift ops
back in '98-9 made up t-shirts with the Squaw logo, etc. stating "Like
We Care".

> 2)  Alpine  Meadows is the polar opposite of Squaw.  It's friendly, easy
> going, wonderfully nice staff and nice skiers.  Decent food at reasonable
> prices, too.  And while it appears much smaller than Squaw - well, in fact,
> it is - there's still more than enough there to keep you well amused for
> multiple days.
>
> 3)  Kirkwood is as inaccessible as Ed says.  OTOH, the drive may be long
> but it also takes you through some stunningly beautiful, remote
> country.  Do not aim for Kirkwood on a snowy day (or just after one) -
> you'll likely not get there.  But if you've got sunny weather and are a day
> or two post-storm (allowing time for avalanche control) you'll enjoy both
> the trip there and the experience of being there.

Skip's comments are right on.


Then On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 05:05, Geoff Devine wrote:
> It's sort of like Kmart... avoid it on weekends.  It has the same
> big-brash feel and all of my relocated Killington friends ski Squaw
> rather than the other Tahoe resorts.

I was going to bring up the similarities to Kmart but Geoff beat me to
it.

Depends upon on you answer the question who has the "best skiing in the
Vermont"? Killington? Then go to Squaw. Sugarbush or Stowe? Then go to
Alpine or Sugar Bowl? Mt. Snow or Stratton? Try Northstar or Heavenly.
MRG or Jay? Try Kirkwood.


Then On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 05:49, Tag Gross wrote:
> >1)  Squaw can be a downright rude, unpleasant, unfriendly place to
> ski.  the management is less so. <
>
> WOOOAAAAHHHH SKIPPAAAHHHH....Are you having a flashback?????????? I think
> you're describing Killington and ASC.
>
> I have never had a bad experience with anyone at Squaw. Now this is only
> based on about 40 ski days there so take it with a grain of salt, I'm sure
> the experts on the list know much more about it.

Sorry Tag. If you want to pay for my lift ticket the next time you're
out here (though I may be able to get a comp), I'll show you some truly
unpleasant conditions. Actually I'm not sure if I want to show you the
conditions as that would mean that I would be there also.

> At Alpine make sure to hit Hot Wheels Gully!

Oh, how does one describe Hot Wheels Gully? Natural half-pipe with
twists. Much fun. Just look for the gabers dropping in from above
without looking down for you.


On Tue, 2003-11-25 at 05:36, Benjamin Bloom wrote:
> Geoff Devine wrote:
>
> > resorts.  It's worth doing a day at Sugar Bowl, too.  I think Heavenly has
>
> Absolutely!  I loved the day I spent at Sugar Bowl.  Great variety of
> terrain.  The staff and skiers were friendly & curteous.  We also hit it
> on a good snow day.  They'd just gotten 8-10" of new fluff.

You just hit on why I chose to patrol at Dah Bowl. I had my choice of
Northstar, Alpine, Squaw, or the Sugar Bowl. For convenience, terrain,
snow, and crowds, I went to the Bowl.

To all SKIVT-Lers, drop me a line if you end up in Tahoe. May meet you
if you are not skiing at the Bowl. If you're at the Bowl, a tour and one
(1) ticket may be an option.

~Tom
First day of skiing was this past Friday. Not good conditions. Made me
wonder why I left the east coast. I could actually hear the snow at
times when I wasn't going through the noise cones from the snowmaking
machines. Heck, I even saw rocks on the groomers. But it is before
Thanksgiving.

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