LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.5

Help for SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE Archives


SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE Archives

SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE Archives


SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE@LIST.UVM.EDU


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE Home

SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE Home

SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE  January 2009

SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE January 2009

Subject:

Re: The 'first true scientist'

From:

Michael H Goldhaber <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Science for the People Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 10 Jan 2009 14:46:24 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (120 lines)

a) Newton's 'Opticks'  is readily available online. It is mostly a  
record of his own experiments with very few citations, and, like most  
scientists today, he chiefly cites recent work, though he does briefly  
refer to Greek and Phoenician “philosophers.” Though Newton spent much  
of his life studying alchemy and hermetic texts, I doubt that he read  
Arabic, and so would have no direct way to seek out Arabic  
manuscripts, which probably were not readily available in printed  
translations either. Can it reasonably be blamed on Europeans that the  
Arabic scientific tradition came to a halt well before Newton?

b) The Mongol language does not seem to be related to any Amerindian  
language, although some scholars suggest that Sino-Tibetan languages  
(unrelated to Mongolian) are related to Na-dene including Navajo. The  
Athabaskan peoples, of whom the N-dene are part, were almost certainly  
not the first gropup to arrive in the Americas from Asia.

The question of who discovered America, if of any interest, surely  
depends on the meaning of the word "discover." Certainly the ancestors  
of Native Americans ass a whole came here first, but they did not, to  
my knowledge send news of their "discovery" back, certainly did not  
publish it, and presumably had no contemporary idea of what they had  
"discovered." Europeans shortly after Columbus  circulated news of  
their discoveries and published maps, which of course led to further  
expeditions and conquest. If Chinese explorers reached the Americas  
before Europeans,  they did not do much with that discovery. The  
"award" for first discovery would be pretty empty of meaning.

Best,
Michael

On Jan 8, 2009, at 11:24 PM, Jim West wrote:

> Two items
>
> a) Isaac Newton's foundations:  My questions are natural and obvious
> questions related to this thread, regarding ancient developments of  
> science
> and mathematics.  What debt does Newton owe the ancients?  Did he  
> reference
> his work to indicate the shoulders he was standing upon?
>
> b) Who discovered America first:  My apologies for writing "British
> discovered", which is a weird slip, maybe because of the  
> Anglicization of
> his name, which in 1492 was Cristobal Colon.
>
> The award for first discovery of America should go to the Mongols, now
> called in America, "Navajo", "Apache", etc.  That discovery occurred  
> long
> before the successful Mongolian conquests through Russia and into  
> Europe.
>
> Mongols and American Indians are strikingly similar.  Genetics are  
> similar.
> They resemble each other.  Similarity extends to cultural detail:   
> Customs,
> behavior, language, clothing, teepees, hogans, sleds pulling  
> children and
> baggage.  The excellent film, "Mongols" (2007), employed Mongol  
> actors and
> was directed in Mongolia.  It shows the similarities clearly,  
> reminding me
> of my several weeks living on Navajo reservations.
>
> Later, Chinese junks may have circumnavigated the globe before  
> Columbus'
> visit to America.  The Chinese ships were much larger than European  
> ships
> before and during the time of Columbus, and they were ingeniously
> constructed.  Junks could be as large as 540 feet in length and had
> partitioned compartments.  The design and sail rigging were considered
> superior to European designs in many respects, giving them the  
> ability to
> sail into the wind like a modern yacht.  They were certainly capable  
> of
> visiting the Americas by at least as early as the Song Dynasty circa  
> 940 AD.
>
> In contemporary times, junks have succeeded in traversing the  
> Pacific to the
> United States to demonstrate the historical possibility.
>
> ===
> On Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:54:48 +1200, Robt Mann <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>>> The English keep relatively quiet about any claim that they
>>> discovered America.
>>
>> 	As a loyal subject of H.M the Queen, interested in English
>> history and the son of an Englishman, I have never heard any such
>> claim.  The English are open to a range of complaints, so there's no
>> need to put up furphies like this one.
>> 	Jim should absorb the fact that tossing out furphies like
>> this will decrease his credibility on other matters.
>>
>> RM
>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 5, 2009, at 1:35 PM, Jim West wrote:
>>>
>>>> Did Newton reference and credit his developments?  Or did he  
>>>> allow us to
>>>> believe he originated them all?  I really don't know for sure.
>>>>
>>>> I do know that the English (as any dominant political system)  
>>>> prefer we
>>>> believe they "discovered America", etc.
>>>>
>>>> Algebra (obviously Arabic word) seems to have had a good start in  
>>>> Babylon:
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_mathematics
>>>>
>>>> As non-western political influence increases in the West, the  
>>>> Western sense
>>>> of history will be contradicted.  I'm looking forward to the new  
>>>> historical
>>>> stories.
>

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
May 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
September 1998
August 1998
July 1998
June 1998
May 1998

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LIST.UVM.EDU

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager