LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.5

Help for SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE Archives


SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE Archives

SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE Archives


SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE@LIST.UVM.EDU


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Monospaced Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE Home

SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE Home

SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE  August 2010

SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE August 2010

Subject:

Re: ROBERT MANN'S EXPLANATION

From:

Stuart Newman <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Science for the People Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:22:04 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (246 lines)

Despite being "old school," New Zealanders indeed know racism when they see
it. This excerpt is from a recent television series about two young New
Zealanders who immigrated to New York:
http://vodpod.com/watch/2096945-flight-of-the-conchords-racism

On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 01:40:19 -0700, Michael H Goldhaber
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Thanks, Mandi, for your particularly eloquent and thoughtful response.
>
>At present my inclination is to keep Robert on moderation, but, as I now feel
obliged to examine his remarks more carefully than before, fewer of his posts
will get by. Robert can ameliorate this by indicating that he has sincerely
understood what Mandi, Chandler, Stuart and Michael Balter have said on this
subject and that he will truly be more careful with his language in future.
>
>(Incidentally, you mention the Rwandan Interahamwe's use of the term
cockroach to describe Tutsis before the genocide there; the Nazis also called
Jews vermin and insects before their own genocidal actions. )
>
>(Incidentally also, I visited NZ eight years ago, and never heard the
term "chow," nor any racially derogatory term that I recognized. The country
also seemed very advanced in terms of taking women's rights seriously.)
>
>Best,
>Michael
>
>On Aug 20, 2010, at 12:52 AM, Mandi Smallhorne wrote:
>
>> As most of you know, I am a lefty born and bred in South Africa, a country
in which the defining issue of the 20th and 21st centuries has been group
prejudices.
>>
>> One thing I’ve learned is that you cannot allow the ‘mildly derogatory’
remarks to pass, because they provide permission for the real horrors to come
roaring out from behind the woodwork. I let my tax accountant’s use of the
term ‘floppy’ go by (that’s an awful but fairly light-hearted term for black
people– as seen by the whites who use it, not by blacks). This gave him tacit
permission to expound his neo-nazi views on what should be done in SA.
(Which meant I had to spend an hour fighting, no fun. It taught me to make
my position very clear immediately, to avoid such encounters in future.)
>>
>> Secondly, the user of a term cannot be the judge of its impact. They are
often in positions of power or perceived superiority, and that can give such
terms a sting that the user simply is unable to comprehend. (Robert may live
in a small country only a Pacific away from a billion Chinese, but he profits
from being a member of the ultimate global mainstream – white, anglo-saxon
males!)
>>
>> I have been interested to see how the heft of terms used for whites in my
country has altered over the last decade – as the white community begins to
grasp that its hand is no long on the tiller of political power, and it is being
asked to yield a fair share of economic power, whites have begun to take
offence at comments which previously would have been laughed off. Having
entered the job market in 1980, I lived through a period of sexism on the work
front which was probably the equivalent of the 60s and 70s elsewhere, and
the use of the word ‘chick’ still makes my skin crawl – because of the impact
that belittling, diminishing attitude had on my dignity and my income. Other
women my age understand that; men don’t.
>>
>> I think all debaters on interweb fora would do well to learn the lesson
Chandler articulates – that is, to distinguish between the person/people and
the content or policy they espouse. Insults are far too easy through
cyberspace – I feel it would do us good to ask ourselves if we could look
someone in the eye, face to face, and call them the name we’re committing to
text: hey, chow… listen, you smug, opinionated sexist pig…. Umm, no, maybe
not.
>>
>> Dishing out casual derogatory terms when they are unnecessary to the
force of your argument, in the end, tells your interlocutors more about you
and how you think than anything else. Terms like ‘floppies’ and ‘chows’
are ‘othering’ terms – they enable you to make less-than-human people who
are individuals with loves and hopes and rights and dreams. The most powerful
demonstration of ‘othering’ comes from Rwanda, where calling
Tsutsis ‘cockroaches’ made them the other, and finally killable.
>>
>> Sorry, bit of a screed. I have lifelong reasons to get verbose over this: I’m
not prepared to accept that asking a simple question is ‘working up a PC rage’,
for starters, and I will never accept that prejudiced terms are a mere ‘quibble’.
>>
>> Mandi
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Science for the People Discussion List [mailto:SCIENCE-FOR-THE-
[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Balter
>> Sent: 20 August 2010 08:35 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: ROBERT MANN'S EXPLANATION
>>
>>
>>
>> By the way, a quick Googling of New Zealand and racism makes clear that
racist attitudes are NOT accepted nor the norm in the country. See for
example this government Web site entry on immigration:
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/history-of-immigration/15
>>
>>
>>
>> Which includes the following passage. If racism was recognized as such in
New Zealand by the 1970s, then there are no excuses today.
>>
>>
>>
>> By 1971 the proportion of New Zealand’s foreign-born population who were
from countries outside the white British Commonwealth was 30% – double that
of 20 years before. As the colour of the population changed, so did attitudes.
Britain’s entry into the European Economic Community encouraged New
Zealand to consider its identity as a Pacific, if not Asian, nation.
Independence movements in the British colonies, civil rights crusades in the
United States and a Māori cultural revival in New Zealand forced many New
Zealanders to confront the racist assumptions in their past. By 1970 a writer
on New Zealand immigration noted, ‘This is a world in which racist attitudes,
once regarded as perfectly natural and needing no apology in an age of
European domination of the non-Europeans’ world, are now looked at askance,
even when they are not condemned outright.’ 1
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 6:52 AM, Michael Balter
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> Robert's "explanation" of his racist remarks is basically a defense of them,
although he admits that they are derogatory. It is the same kind of
explanation that most racists use to escape criticism, and like most racists
who have been caught out he tries to imply that we are too sensitive
and "PC." Some New Zealanders may be "old school," but New Zealand
scientists and intellectuals generally are not, and I am pretty confident that
the term "chows" would be recognized as racist by most of them. And there
are lots of "old school" people still living in Britain itself, but there is a very low
tolerance for overt racism in that society.
>>
>>
>>
>> My personal feeling is that Robert should be banned from the list, but
continuing to keep him on moderation would be an alternative solution.
>>
>>
>>
>> MB
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 1:36 AM, Michael H Goldhaber <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have just approved (for list publication) Robert Mann's attempted
explanation of his use of the word "chows." It should appear shortly, if not
already.
>>
>>
>>
>> New Zealand is a small, isolated country, relatively homogeneous until
quite recently, and in many ways still quite "old-school" British. I am not sure
all of that makes the remark acceptable, and would like others' opinions about
how to handle it.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ******************************************
>> Michael Balter
>> Contributing Correspondent, Science
>> Adjunct Professor of Journalism,
>> New York University
>>
>> Email: [log in to unmask]
>> Web: michaelbalter.com
>> NYU: journalism.nyu.edu/faculty/balter.html
>> ******************************************
>>
>> "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the
poor have no food, they call me a Communist." -- Hélder Pessoa Câmara
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ******************************************
>> Michael Balter
>> Contributing Correspondent, Science
>> Adjunct Professor of Journalism,
>> New York University
>>
>> Email: [log in to unmask]
>> Web: michaelbalter.com
>> NYU: journalism.nyu.edu/faculty/balter.html
>> ******************************************
>>
>> "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the
poor have no food, they call me a Communist." -- Hélder Pessoa Câmara
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature database 5378 (20100819) __________
>>
>>
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature database 5380 (20100819) __________
>>
>>
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
signature database 5380 (20100819) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>
>

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
May 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
September 1998
August 1998
July 1998
June 1998
May 1998

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LIST.UVM.EDU

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager