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SKIVT-L  February 2011, Week 3

SKIVT-L February 2011, Week 3

Subject:

Re: Hey they got one right! (Stake measurements)

From:

JJ <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Vermont Skiing Discussion and Snow Reports <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 20 Feb 2011 18:14:36 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (144 lines)

Scott, last week when we were looking at the stake, you and I couldn't even 
agree on whatit read that day....it is basically a stick, nailed to a birch tree, 
with crude measuring marks, 15 feet off the trail. Ever notice how the snow 
collects on a pitch around it? I always have to guess even just to read the 
depth. Your snowboards actually collect new snow. If his system is to just 
read the stake every evening, he can't be accurate about new snow, at least 
compared to snowboards that catch it fresh each day,
JJ
On Sun, 20 Feb 2011 11:18:33 -0500, Scott Braaten 
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>I can count the times on one hand where I've actually thought the stake
>"NEW" snow measurement was correct this season.  Yesterday's 4" sounds 
right
>given that I had 2.3" total down in the village.
>
>SXUS51 KBTV 192232
>HYDBTV
>DAILY HYDROMETEOROLOGICAL DATA
>NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE BURLINGTON VT
>532 PM EST SAT FEB 19 2011
>
>STATION            PRECIP   TEMPERATURE   PRESENT         SNOW
>                   24 HRS   MAX MIN CUR   WEATHER     NEW TOTAL SWE
>...VERMONT...
>MOUNT MANSFIELD     0.31    39  -4  -4                4.0  70
>
>
>Last Tuesday when I reported 2-4" and I was wrong (see "Deeper and Better
>than Expected" trip report), everyone at the mountain ribbed me that I
>must've been using the Stake method of take new snow and divide by 2.
>
>Let me preface this next section by saying what is being discussed is only
>the "NEW" snowfall.  No one has any issue with the actual stake snow depth
>reading because it is what it is.  The "NEW" snowfall this year has been
>particularly "off" in my opinion and as it turns out, I'm not the only one
>who thinks that.
>
>I had a phone discussion last week with the guy who measures up there, Fred
>L., and it was a very interesting discussion.  Tony Crocker from
>bestsnow.net contacted him saying that his snowfall measurements couldn't
>possibly be correct, as the Mansfield stake recorded like 1/3rd of what
>every northern VT ski area had, and it less snow than the Burlington
>airport.  At the time, we at SMR, had measured about 3x what the stake had
>recorded as far as "new" snowfall.  Fred also mentioned "some guy in
>Waterbury" who says the Stake is wrong because he usually records more 
snow
>than the Mansfield cooperative observer does (I'd assume he was talking
>about J.Spin).   
>
>We discussed that storm around Groundhog/Woodchuck Wednesday where I
>measured 15" from the Barnes Camp snowboard, and ski patrol measured 17" 
at
>the High Road.  He said that he couldn't believe the ski area reported
>15-17" and that it must've been in a drift.  I informed him that no, it was
>off of two snow boards and I send him pictures of them both.  It was also
>measured by two different people (me at the base, ski patroller Spike at the
>top) and the totals matched up nicely.  Further more, he tried to say that
>the town of Stowe only got 7" which matched the 7" he found at the summit 
of
>Mansfield.  There were two reports of 12-13" in Stowe village from that
>storm, which would match with 15" and 17" higher up.  I also couldn't figure
>out how snow falling in town would be equal to what falls over 3,000ft
>higher.  He said there isn't as much of a difference as people think between
>the lower elevations and the higher elevations... and seemed to give me the
>impression that its not uncommon for him to get more new snow at his house
>in Essex (or some place like that) than what he finds at the top of
>Mansfield.  Now, there must be something funky going on, or else high winds
>just really don't allow for snow to actually land on the ground at the
>Engineers Station.  
>
>I also questioned him on a couple of days the previous week when the upper
>mountain got a surprise 4-5" overnight one night, and 3" the next night. 
>This was when Matt B. was staying at the hut and JJ and Josh witnessed the
>second night's surprise snow.  Refer to this post: http://tinyurl.com/4n2gs2p
>
>On that day at 3,000ft we had 4" new snow, probably was closer to 5" up at
>3,600ft+.  It was classic, upslope fluff with very low water content snow. 
>The stake report for that day had less than a 10:1 ratio when in fact this
>stuff was probably 40-50:1 no-resistance fluff.  This day perplexed me the
>most because Jimmy and I hiked up the Toll Road at like 3pm in fluff that
>was deep enough to cover previous tracks.  Jim was staying at the Stone Hut
>that night and we skied right up until the end of the day, lapping the woods
>off the upper Toll Road because the new snow was deepest there (in the
>vicinity of the stake).  
>
>Now, I know the upper Toll Road was groomed the night before by SMR and
>there was at least 5" now covering the groomed surface (at 3pm).  So 
whoever
>reported the 0.5" of new snow that day for the Stake, had to have
>snowmobiled through 5" of fluff to do the stake reading.  I cannot figure
>out where in that process this breaks down to only a half inch of new
>snow... unless someone fudged up with the decimal point that day.  There 
has
>to be some point at which you are like, hmm, there's only 1/2" of snow in
>the measuring cylinder, but that's odd because I just walked through shin
>deep snow on the previously groomed Toll Road.
>
>Next exhibit would be this past Monday when I skied with Scotty D.  Both of
>us went into the High Road stake so I could reset the snow board, and found
>around 3/4ths of an inch of new snow from overnight.  That gets rounded to
>1" (I actually reported 0" of new snow that day, as I like to run
>conservative on the SMR snow report) but lets say it was 0.8".  I mentioned
>to Scott Danis (as the witness) that under no circumstances should the stake
>today come in with less than 0.8", especially since it snowed more on the
>upper mountain that afternoon and added another half an inch of graupel-like
>snow.  Sure enough, Monday night, the report comes in with only 0.5".
>
>Now Fred claims he thinks they are doing everything right and sometimes take
>a mix of the change in stake snow depth and what's in their measuring can to
>get to the "NEW" number.  Increase in snow depth and new snowfall are
>mutually exclusive, but also doesn't account for when the stake rises more
>inches than they report new snow.  I mentioned that wind must be effecting
>the snow that falls in the measuring can.  He said its not as windy as
>people think and the snow often falls straight down, but when it is windy,
>they have these rings around the can that are supposed to block the wind 
and
>allow the flakes to fall straight into the can.  I've seen this set-up
>elsewhere and it does work.  But something is obviously a little screwy with
>this whole thing.
>
>I've been talking with the NWS in Burlington and they mentioned sending
>their Senior Hydrologist out to look at our snow study plots.  They do
>acknowledge that the stake's "NEW" readings can be puzzling, especially 
when
>BTV starts regularly getting more snow than the top of Mansfield.  Fred said
>he would be interested in seeing our snow board set-up as well, so I think
>I'm going to try and schedule a meeting of the minds.  Maybe someone from
>NWS BTV, Fred, myself, and ski patroller Spike should do a ski around and
>visit our sites, as well as Fred's, and see if we can't all get on the same
>page here.
>
>-Scott
>
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August 2002, Week 1
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