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SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE  May 2011

SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE May 2011

Subject:

Re: Post Exclusive: Bin Laden consumed with repeating attack on U.S., officials say

From:

Stuart Newman <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Science for the People Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 12 May 2011 16:15:05 -0400

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (639 lines)

What most surprises me in this entire exchange is that Larry's positive 
comment about Evo Morales 14 posts back did not get the Stalinism 
treatment by Michael. But perhaps my expectation will still be 
vindicated as the arguments develop. 

On Thu, 12 May 2011 14:47:41 -0400, Larry Romsted 
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>Michael:
>
>I agree that we were doing pretty well for awhile and I appreciated 
your
>informational posts after you returned to the list.  But then, you 
decided
>to be provocative again, as you said yourself.
>
>I still think that to call Chomsky a liar based on that bin Laden story 
and
>some other unnamed evidence is, in essence, lying.  It is not cute or 
fun,
>but really serious.  I don't believe, by the way, that I ever claimed that
>Chomsky is right, or that I agree with him on everything.  In fact, I 
seldom
>think about what Chomsky says, in particular about 9/11, but 
sometimes I
>listen to his overview of US foreign policy, but not often.
>
>I tried to tell you in a whole bunch of ways why I was objecting to 
what you
>were writing.  You call it my obsession with you.  No, I am concerned 
with
>how you treat information and with your characterizations of others on 
and
>off this list.
>
>Ignore me.  Listen, really listen, to Claudia.
>
>I'm done.
>
>Larry
>
>From:  Michael Balter <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To:  Science for the People Discussion List
><[log in to unmask]>
>Date:  Thu, 12 May 2011 20:02:01 +0200
>To:  <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject:  Re: Post Exclusive: Bin Laden consumed with repeating 
attack on
>U.S., officials say
>
>The only response this deserves is to say again that Chomsky's original
>statements that there is no evidence linking Bin Laden to 9/11 are 
wildly
>off the mark, and that the material reported by the Post is not based 
on
>"hearsay" but on interviews with individuals who have directly 
accessed the
>materials taken from Bin Laden's hideout. Many, many newspaper 
stories are
>based on this kind of sourcing. Eventually, the administration will 
probably
>release some of the actual documents, or perhaps make photocopies or
>translations of them available to the media. That would be better, of
>course.
>
>(I will add parenthetically that without the mainstream media and the
>reporting it does, the average American would be even more ignorant 
than
>he/she already is. That goes for leftists too. But of course it is
>legitimate to question the accuracy and possible biases in reporting, 
the
>only problem is that one must do that across the board and not only 
when one
>disagrees with the political implications of a particular story, as I said
>before. No one on the left questions reporting in mainstream media 
that is
>critical of the US government. )
>
>My interpretation of the Post story is that it provides corroborating
>evidence for what we already know from previous evidence. To call me 
a liar,
>as Larry just did,  because I see it that way,  is a baseless personal
>attack.
>
>As for the rest, Larry needs to get a life. He has become seriously 
obsessed
>with me and what I post here, and he needs to figure out some way to 
get
>over it. I will continue to post what I consider relevant material to the
>interests of this list, and to express myself politically.
>
>Now, I have been saying that for years. Will Larry ever begin to believe
>that I will not be intimidated or suppressed or "shamed" into behaving 
any
>differently? Or will he continue to regale the list with his attacks on 
me?
>
>We were doing pretty well lately being more civil to each other, but 
some
>people just cannot stand being confronted with anything they disagree 
with
>or with criticisms of Sacred Cows like Chomsky. Thus the step up in 
personal
>attacks on me.
>
>MB
>
>
>
>On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 7:38 PM, Larry Romsted 
<[log in to unmask]>
>wrote:
>> Michael
>> 
>> Your response disturbs me deeply.
>> 
>> In essence, I wrote that you lied about how the story about stuff on 
bin
>> Laden's computer reflected on Chomsky.  Instead of responding 
directly, you
>> changed the subject.
>> 
>> You wrote initially:
>> 
>> "The following report would seem to give the lie to Chomsky's 
insistence that
>> there is no evidence bin Laden had anything to do with 9/11, and by
>> implication with other terrorist attacks."
>> 
>> I responded that the report itself did nothing of the sort.  There was 
no
>> evidence in the story by Greg Miller and Karen DeYoung, unnamed 
sources or
>> not, that bin Laden had anything to do with 9/11.  You did not 
dispute my
>> statement.
>> 
>> Then I showed you that the story was totally unsubstantiated 
because there was
>> no evidence and the sources were unnamed.  Newspapers can also 
hold back
>> publishing stories that are not well documented until the 
documentation is
>> clear.  [I have seen the NYT editors write that they take pride in 
holding
>> back stories until they are ready.]  I face the same tension of not 
publishing
>> results in journals until the conclusions are fully supported by the
>> experimental data.  Promotion and grant funding also depend on 
getting papers
>> out.  Don't tell me I don't understand.
>> 
>> You write:
>> 
>> "Some of the descriptions of the materials found in Bin Laden's 
hideout could
>> turn out to be completely inaccurate. [who knows I add] But to 
refuse to
>> believe any of it because it would clash with one's own ideological 
views is
>> the height of special pleading. I regret that this is Larry's habitual 
method
>> of argument."
>> 
>> Where did I write that I did not believe any of it?  That is 
nonsense.  What
>> of my ideological views (and how do you know my ideological 
views?) are being
>> specially pleaded.  Then you say it is my habitual method of 
argument.  I
>> don't even know what you are talking about?
>> 
>> Michael:  I really think you twist the meaning of what I write.  I 
don't know
>> why you do this.
>> 
>> Finally, a question?  What is your purpose is submitting to a Science 
for the
>> People discussion list a hearsay story about what is on bin Laden's 
computer
>> if it is not to provoke argument about issues irrelevant to the list?
>> 
>> I am not particularly troubled by the Post story itself.  I read the 
Post
>> online periodically.  I am used to newspapers publishing stuff like 
that
>> periodically.  No big deal to me. I withhold judgement.  I hope you 
do too.
>> 
>> I am deeply troubled, however, that you send it to this list and then 
use it
>> to smear Chomsky [smear because what you wrote is false, see 
above] and some
>> unnamed people you call serious leftists.  Who are these people?  
Do you mean
>> the people on this list?  Some particular leftist organizations?  The 
left
>> Democrats?  Who?
>> 
>> To me, this is troll like behavior.
>> 
>> Larry
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> From:  Michael Balter <[log in to unmask]>
>> Reply-To:  Science for the People Discussion List
>> <[log in to unmask]>
>> Date:  Thu, 12 May 2011 15:51:36 +0200
>> 
>> To:  <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject:  Re: Post Exclusive: Bin Laden consumed with repeating 
attack on
>> U.S., officials say
>> 
>> I'm only going to respond very briefly to Larry's detailed post, as 
follows:
>> I'm afraid that Larry doesn't understand how journalism works. It 
often relies
>> on unnamed sources in the initial stages of uncovering a story. We 
didn't find
>> out who Deep Throat was for some 30 years, but he existed and he 
was right
>> about pretty much everything. Likewise, when the New York Times 
and the
>> Washington Post publish information based on unnamed intelligence 
sources that
>> we want to believe--eg Risen's and others' expose of Bush 
administration
>> spying on Americans--we believe every word.
>> 
>> Chomsky himself has relied very heavily on such media reports, even 
though
>> they inevitably involve unnamed sources.
>> 
>> Some of the descriptions of the materials found in Bin Laden's 
hideout could
>> turn out to be completely inaccurate. But to refuse to believe any of 
it
>> because it would clash with one's own ideological views is the 
height of
>> special pleading. I regret that this is Larry's habitual method of 
argument.
>> 
>> But I'm glad that he is taking the time and trouble to read the 
material that
>> I post here. That means my work on this list is valuable and 
worthwhile.
>> 
>> MB
>> 
>> On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Larry Romsted 
<[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>> Michael:
>>> 
>>> Your statements below remind me of a FOX news broadcast.  
Conclusions based
>>> on unnamed sources without verifiable documentation in a 
newspaper
>>> (Washington Post) article; one hallmark of polemicists.  I am 
surprised that
>>> you as a serious leftist would fall for it.
>>> 
>>> I did a little "scientific" investigation.  I went through the Post 
article
>>> below and looked for the name of an expert or expert 
whose "expertise" could,
>>> in principle, be checked.  This is an obvious reaction by me 
because you
>>> claim that Chomsky relies almost entirely on secondary sources.  
So, I
>>> decided to evaluate the credibility of the sources that you use for 
drawing
>>> your conclusion that " give the lie to Chomsky's insistence that 
there is no
>>> evidence bin Laden had anything to do with 9/11."  I conclude that 
you see
>>> the Washington Post as fount of truth so trustworthy that if they 
write
>>> "unnamed source" or "US Intelligence official" we should just 
believe them.
>>> 
>>> Also, none of the information in the article addresses evidence 
concerning
>>> 9/11.  So how could it demonstrate that Chomsky is lying about 
the evidence
>>> that bin Laden carried out 9/11?
>>> 
>>> Do you believe that unnamed sources never lie to the public?  Do 
you believe
>>> the intelligence officials never manipulate the press or reporters? 
Do you
>>> believe it is wise to accept as truthful stories that are free of
>>> documentation?
>>> 
>>> I think I. F. Stone would be very, very disappointed in you.
>>> 
>>> Me, before drawing conclusions about what Osama has done and 
what was the
>>> truth about how he died, I will wait for the publishing of that 
treasure
>>> trove of documents that is mentioned below and give time for 
people to
>>> analyze it.
>>> 
>>> Yea, I know in about 50 years.  But what is important to building a 
strong
>>> left is not this execution, but to struggle for social justice and 
protection
>>> of the planet.  In that sense Evo Morales and the Bolivian 
government are in
>>> the forefront.  I have forgotten exactly what they have done, but 
they are
>>> pushing legislation to protect mother earth and the people on it.  
They are
>>> way out in front of the US federal government.
>>> 
>>> I have highlighted some text in red.
>>> 
>>> Larry
>>> 
>>> From:  Michael Balter <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Reply-To:  Science for the People Discussion List
>>> <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Date:  Thu, 12 May 2011 08:45:24 +0200
>>> To:  <[log in to unmask]>
>>> Subject:  Fwd: Post Exclusive: Bin Laden consumed with repeating 
attack on
>>> U.S., officials say
>>> 
>>> Now on to more "provocative" topics.
>>> 
>>> The following report would seem to give the lie to Chomsky's 
insistence that
>>> there is no evidence bin Laden had anything to do with 9/11, and 
by
>>> implication with other terrorist attacks. But actually we've always 
had
>>> plenty of evidence that he was involved. It's important to 
remember that
>>> Chomsky is a polemicist who relies almost entirely on secondary 
sources, and
>>> not on his own original research. And yet he is often treated like a 
guru who
>>> has a special fountain of knowledge.
>>> 
>>> The meme that OBL had nothing to do with 9/11 (and yes, it is 
meme-like in
>>> its behavior, because it is repeated despite evidence) is simply 
9/11 truth
>>> lite, and I find it surprising that serious leftists would fall for it.
>>> 
>>> What serious leftists are you talking about?  Name some names.  
Christopher
>>> Hitchens?  Marc Cooper?
>>> 
>>> MB
>>> 
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: The Washington Post 
<[log in to unmask]>
>>> Date: Thu, May 12, 2011 at 3:45 AM
>>> Subject: Post Exclusive: Bin Laden consumed with repeating attack 
on U.S.,
>>> officials say
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Back to previous page
>>> 
>>> Bin Laden�s preoccupation with U.S. said to be source of friction 
with
>>> followers
>>> GBy  Greg Miller
>>> <http://projects.washingtonpost.com/staff/articles/greg+miller/>  
and Karen
>>> DeYoung 
<http://projects.washingtonpost.com/staff/articles/karen+deyoung/> ,
>>> Published: May 11
>>> Osama bin Laden was preoccupied with attacking the United 
States over all
>>> other targets, a fixation that led to friction with followers, 
according to
>>> U.S. intelligence officials involved in analyzing the trove of 
materials
>>> 
<http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/bin_laden_videos_other_data
_released_
>>> by_obama_administration/2011/05/07/AFb2qLJG_story.html?
nav=emailpage>
>>> recovered from the al-Qaeda leader�s compound.
>>> 
>>> Unnamed U.S. Intelligence officials.  No verifiable documentary 
evidence
>>> supplied below.
>>> 
>>> In handwritten journals and long-winded compositions saved on 
computer hard
>>> drives, the officials said, bin Laden always seemed to be searching 
for a way
>>> to replicate the impact of al-Qaeda�s most devastating strike. He 
exhorted
>>> followers to explore ways to recruit non-Muslims �who are 
oppressed in the
>>> United States,� in the words of one official � particularly African 
Americans
>>> and Latinos  � and to assemble a plot in time for the 10th 
anniversary of the
>>> Sept. 11 attacks.Even while sealed inside a cement compound in a 
Pakistani
>>> city, bin Laden functioned like a crime boss pulling strings from a 
prison
>>> cell, sending regular messages to his most trusted lieutenants and 
strategic
>>> advice to far-flung franchises, including al-Qaeda�s affiliate in 
Yemen. Some
>>> followers pledged their fealty to him; others, however, chafed at 
his
>>> exhortations to remain focused on U.S. targets instead of 
mounting less risky
>>> operations in places such as Yemen, Somalia and Algeria.�Bin 
Laden is saying,
>>> �You�ve got to focus on the U.S. and the West,� � said a senior 
U.S.
>>> intelligence official who was involved in reviewing the stockpile, 
adding
>>> that some of bin Laden�s followers seemed more concerned with 
regional issues
>>> and were reluctant to conduct an attack that would provoke an 
American
>>> response. A little over a week after obtaining one of the largest
>>> intelligence hauls on a terrorist group, U.S. officials involved in 
reviewing
>>> the trove said they are learning more about bin Laden and the al-
Qaeda
>>> bureaucracy than about the locations of operatives or specific plots 
that
>>> might be unfolding.Overall, the officials said, the new information 
� as well
>>> as the lack of any apparent effort by bin Laden to prevent it from 
falling
>>> into U.S. hands � provides a strikingly rich portrait of the al-Qaeda 
chief.
>>> �Bin Laden got lazy and complacent,� said the senior U.S. official, 
who spoke
>>> on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the 
information.
>>> �I don�t think he thought he would meet his maker in that house. 
And he
>>> certainly didn�t make any preparations� to escape a raid or 
destroy the
>>> information found inside, the official said.Officials said they are 
still in
>>> triage mode as they sift through the contents of more than 110 
flash drives,
>>> laptops and other digital storage devices, in addition to piles of 
paper
>>> documents. The trove, which represents millions of pages that 
must be
>>> translated from Arabic, is being scrutinized at a secret CIA facility 
in
>>> Northern Virginia. Analysts and Arabic linguists from other 
agencies are
>>> being brought in to review the materials.The early effort has 
focused on
>>> searching the most recent materials for key words, including the 
names of
>>> major American cities. Analysts are also scanning for references to 
names of
>>> al-Qaeda figures, phone numbers and other details that could 
provide clues
>>> for CIA operatives and military counterterrorism teams working 
overseas.U.S.
>>> officials said bin Laden had a relatively short list of senior al-Qaeda
>>> members whom he was in touch with frequently and directly, albeit 
through
>>> messages smuggled out of the compound by couriers.Among them 
were Ayman
>>> al-Zawahiri, the Egyptian physician who had long functioned as bin 
Laden�s
>>> second in command, as well as Atiyah Abd al-Rahman, a Libyan 
operative who is
>>> the latest to fill the organization�s vulnerable No. 3 slot.Bin 
Laden�s
>>> directions tended to be big-picture in nature, officials said, 
focusing more
>>> on broader objectives than on granular operational details. �I 
wouldn�t call
>>> it command and control� that bin Laden was exercising, the senior 
U.S.
>>> intelligence official said. Indeed, there is no indication that bin 
Laden
>>> even knew the specific whereabouts of Zawahiri and others. Al-
Qaeda�s
>>> fragmented nature and operational security appear to have kept its 
leader
>>> substantially in the dark.�We�re not going to find operational 
manuals or
>>> Excel spreadsheets� with rosters of operatives and points of 
contact, the
>>> senior intelligence official said. Bin Laden served as a �chief 
executive who
>>> is giving fairly generic, broad instructions and guidance rather than
>>> tactical orders,� the official said.Even so, the communications are 
expected
>>> to help the CIA and other organizations, including the National
>>> Counterterrorism Center, gain significant insights into al-Qaeda�s 
structure
>>> and relationship to regional affiliates.The U.S. intelligence official 
said
>>> bin Laden�s records have �confirmed our view that AQAP is first 
among equals
>>> in terms of relationships with al-Qaeda core.� The acronym refers 
to al-Qaeda
>>> in the Arabian Peninsula, the Yemen-based group that has been 
behind a series
>>> of plots targeting the United States, including the attempted 
bombing of a
>>> Detroit-bound airliner on Christmas Day 2009.Bin Laden does not 
appear to
>>> have been in communication with the most widely recognized 
AQAP figure, the
>>> American-born cleric Anwar al-Aulaqi, a relative newcomer who 
never met the
>>> al-Qaeda leader, U.S. officials said. But bin Laden did relay 
messages to
>>> others in Yemen whom he appears to have known 
personally.Largely because of
>>> Aulaqi�s influence, AQAP has emerged as what U.S. 
counterterrorism officials
>>> have described as the most immediate threat to American 
interests.Because bin
>>> Laden �was the author and prime proponent of global jihad,� a 
central
>>> question among counterterrorism analysts is �whether some of 
that ebbs� with
>>> bin Laden�s death, the U.S. official said.A second U.S. official 
familiar
>>> with the data review said that, based on the records, bin Laden 
also seemed
>>> to have placed a low priority on operations inside Afghanistan and 
Pakistan,
>>> urging his network to focus on efforts that will �make America 
weak, using
>>> Latinos and African Americans, people who are oppressed in the 
United
>>> States.�Al-Qaeda has articulated such goals before. In 2007, 
Zawahiri issued
>>> a message that appealed in part to African Americans, saying, 
�We are waging
>>> jihad to lift oppression from all mankind.�Al-Qaeda appears to 
have done
>>> little to recruit minorities beyond issuing such appeals, officials 
said.
>>> �Their recruiting has been extremely passive� in recent years, the 
senior
>>> U.S. intelligence official said. �It�s not like they have talent 
scouts at
>>> mosques in the United States.�The trove does not point to any 
contact between
>>> bin Laden and members of the Pakistani military or intelligence 
services. The
>>> fact that bin Laden appears to have spent the past six years hiding 
in a
>>> compound surrounded by Pakistani military installations, including 
the
>>> country�s top military academy, has fueled speculation that 
Islamabad was
>>> protecting bin Laden or knew his whereabouts.  Could it be that ISI 
did not
>>> know that bin Laden was next door?Read more on Osama bin 
Laden:Guantanamo Bay
>>> detainees� family members may be allowed to visit
>>> <http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/guantanamo-bay-
detainees-family-membe
>>> rs-may-be-allowed-to-visit/2011/05/11/AFGAMtsG_story.html?
hpid=z1> Peace
>>> Corps chief expresses regret for sexual assaults on young 
volunteers
>>> <http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/peace-corps-chief-
expresses-regret-fo
>>> r-sexual-assaults-experienced-by-young-
volunteers/2011/05/11/AFjrCitG_story.h
>>> tml> Some legislators will view bin Laden photos
>>> <http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/bin-laden-photos-to-be-
made-available
>>> -to-some-members-of-congress/2011/05/11/AFGvaKpG_story.html> 
Campaign 2012:
>>> The bin Laden factor
>>> <http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/44/post/west-wing-
briefing-in-campaign-a
>>> ppearance-obama-highlights-bin-laden-
capture/2011/05/10/AFjnuBnG_blog.html>
>>> Staff researcher Julie Tate contributed to this report.
>>> �  The Washington Post Company
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> ******************************************
>>> Michael Balter
>>> Contributing Correspondent, Science
>>> Adjunct Professor of Journalism,
>>> New York University
>>> 
>>> Email:  [log in to unmask]
>>> Web:    michaelbalter.com <http://michaelbalter.com>
>>> NYU:    journalism.nyu.edu/faculty/michael-balter/
>>> <http://journalism.nyu.edu/faculty/michael-balter/>
>>> ******************************************
>>> 
>>> "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask 
why the poor
>>> have no food, they call me a Communist." -- H�lder Pessoa C�mara
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> ******************************************
>> Michael Balter
>> Contributing Correspondent, Science
>> Adjunct Professor of Journalism,
>> New York University
>> 
>> Email:  [log in to unmask]
>> Web:    michaelbalter.com <http://michaelbalter.com>
>> NYU:    journalism.nyu.edu/faculty/michael-balter/
>> <http://journalism.nyu.edu/faculty/michael-balter/>
>> ******************************************
>> 
>> "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why 
the poor
>> have no food, they call me a Communist." -- H�lder Pessoa C�mara
>
>
>

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