LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.5

Help for SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE Archives


SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE Archives

SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE Archives


SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE@LIST.UVM.EDU


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE Home

SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE Home

SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE  March 2013

SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE March 2013

Subject:

Re: Being In The World - Kamran

From:

Tadit Anderson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Science for the People Discussion List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 5 Mar 2013 09:49:32 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (224 lines)

Kamran,

This is an able and reasoned response. "Highly sensitive" perhaps it is a  
matter of accumulated direct experience dealing with the faux science of  
the nominally "positive" (as in positivistic) pretensions of conventional  
social "science" as well as attempting to communicate through the negation  
reproduced by the pretensions of "progressives" which reproduce in detail  
the same conformism to extremis as the culture which they feign to abhor.  
As one example Reich's apt description of Stalin's Soviet Union as a  
fascist state. More to the present those that will wring their hands about  
economic inequality, and then accept in its entirety Reagan-esque Free  
market economics as the entire definition of economics, with the caveat  
that it puts them personally in a position to decide which pet cause gets  
a tax deductible donation and which do not.

There is also the layer of where and when activities begin and end as  
science. In total the preemptive nature of the list of the apparent  
assumptions and then using Marx as a cover rationalization sums up to a  
screed deeply in dissonance of a process operating under the assumption of  
"Science for/of the People" (sic), but perhaps something closer to  
"SCIENTISTS for the people" (sic). The breadth of the dismissal, of what  
in more informed contexts is a very serious topic, was flatly stunning.  
The video also clearly points to the masters as emblematic of being in the  
world, while the occupants of the MIT AI contingent dedicated to what was  
demonstrated to be an elitist absurdity.

While the artifice of Platonic theory building has a utility, perhaps it  
is because those "who" are obliged on pretense to suffer dismissal can't  
talk back, except as the conflated are forced to revise.

Tadit




On Mon, 04 Mar 2013 12:36:18 -0500, Kamran Nayeri  
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> The central issue in the video is the subject-object distinction in the
> history of Western philosophical tradition with a focus of Heideggar's
> contribution that disputes the distinction.  With due respect I think  
> Larry
> either missed the point or does not appreciate the philosophical problem  
> (I
> am not philosopher--just a layman reader of philosophy).  It is a fallacy
> to any proposition because they are held by white men or they do not pay
> respect to Marx and Engles, etc.  The subject-object relationship applies
> to humans even when we were gatherer-hunters, that is about 95% of our
> existence when there was no class society.  It is also obvious that Tadit
> is highly sensitive to the topic introduced.
>
> Here is my own reaction: the video only focuses on the creative  
> (positive)
> "subject-object" relation where the outcome is pleasant and nurturing of
> human character.  Clearly, there is ample evidence of "subject-object"
> relationship where the outcome is negative and debasing of human
> character--for example: gangs, guns, and violence or imperialism, arms,  
> and
> war.  Heiddegar himself betrayed pro-Nazi sympathies (I do not say this  
> to
> undermine his philosophical thesis but just to point to how  
> subject-object
> relations are not always creative but can also be destructive).  This  
> issue
> was not addressed in the video.
>
> We are what we do but how do we choose what is good for us to do.  Pluto
> dissolve the concrete into abstractions. Heidegger and the  
> existentialists
> wanted to return "man" to its existential being.  If there is a
> contribution here for Marx it is this: the return of "man" to his
> existential being is historical, it require us to become the subjects of
> history as opposed to its objects. One can take issues with this view as
> well. But at least this is a discussion worth having and we can all learn
> from it and from each other.
>
> Regards,
>
> Kamran
>
> On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 8:11 AM, Tadit Anderson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> I am both astonished and embarrassed by your PC simplicity and  
>> essentially
>> your neo-liberal posturing, which apparently is presumed to exempt you  
>> from
>> grasping the project represented by "Being In The World." It may be that
>> your portal to history and art, apart from your laboratory and  
>> classroom,
>> is so narrow and essentially conformist that you are unable to suppose  
>> any
>> other basis for "critical thinking." If you find my words offensive, I
>> assure you, it is less offensive than your dismissal of "Being In the
>> World" seemed to me.
>>
>> Of the "masters" interviewed the majority are of nominal minorities
>> relative to the standards of white western Euro heritage. A Gypsy  
>> musician,
>> a Japanese carpenter, a female juggler, a female cultural  
>> critic/speaker,
>> two Afro American chefs, and several Afro American musicians. True, the
>> professional "philosophers" as a category are all white males, AND are  
>> not
>> the masters, as presented, also philosophers besides? One of the major
>> points of the film is that the philosophers are admitting the  
>> perverseness
>> of the philosophical and cultural dominance represented by Plato and
>> Plato's legacy, and effectively the nature of imperialism thereafter.
>>
>> To the nature of your PC dismissal, Art is generally interpreted both in
>> the context of the artist and of the culture to which and in which it is
>> produced. One of the top layers of intent is to honor Hubert Dreyfus's
>> resistance to the culture of technological over-reach. The project of  
>> the
>> video is also to focus upon a body of work still in progress.
>>
>> It has remained darkly comic for me to realize the apparent short  
>> distance
>> for many nominal progressives and socialists to an ideological rigor  
>> mortis
>> and surrender to its own reproduction of corporatism. Beneath this is an
>> absence of standards over the assertion of authority by presumption of  
>> the
>> authority conferred by an academic degree or by the publication of
>> something that appears to be a book, though absent much validation of  
>> the
>> sacrifice of cellulose to pretense beyond profit and other varieties of
>> self interest.
>>
>> There is certainly room in the broader context to discuss Marx's
>> contributions in a kindred direction, and there are intrinsic  
>> limitations
>> to doing art, rather than reproducing a deification and theology in a
>> manner that is contrary to the limits of the theme and its production.  
>> Your
>> response in this context would have been much more authentic if that had
>> been the basis of your effort rather than toward taking down and
>> discrediting "Being In The World."
>>
>> My own disappointment with the production were in honesty minor though
>> significant, such as in tacitly accepting the over-writing of the
>> philosophies of Parmenides as "pre-Socratic," when in their time  
>> Socrates,
>> Plato, and Aristotle were factually post Parmenidean, and that part of
>> Heidegger's and Gadamer's projects were directed to resurrecting  
>> Parmenides
>> and the contributions of his cohorts and students, including Zeno. And  
>> I am
>> willing to over-look such details for the greater value of the effort.
>>
>> Further, the absence of mention of Hannah Arendt's conditioning of  
>> social
>> and ideological capacities, is also a technical deficiency, though
>> acknowledged in principle.
>>
>> Your response to a large degree exemplifies the imperial nature of
>> pop-level progressivism, absent much in the way of social capacities or  
>> of
>> the socialization obliged. Enough.
>>
>> in disappointment for SftP, Tadit
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 03 Mar 2013 23:37:35 -0500, Romsted, Laurence <
>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>  Tadit:
>>>
>>> I watched much of the video.  Thank you.
>>>
>>> Some of the discussion was interesting, especially about the parts  
>>> about
>>> what becoming creative feels like and how ones work becomes part of  
>>> and an
>>> extension of oneself.
>>>
>>> But there was an unreality about it all:
>>>
>>> All the philosopher's were white males, I think.  No blacks, no  
>>> asians, no
>>> women.  Weird.
>>>
>>> The political economy that we all live in seemed to be outside of the
>>> reality they discussed or was just part of it with no particular
>>> consequence.
>>>
>>> They talked about many philosophers over time, but never Marx, never
>>> Engels, etc.  How can they leave such a large hole in their discussion?
>>> They did not even explain why they might think them wrong.
>>>
>>> They spoke and discussed like there were no social classes that we are
>>> born into and must deal with.  What class one is in has an enormous  
>>> effect
>>> on ones view of the world and ones sense of what is possible and what  
>>> it
>>> means to be creative in ones work.
>>>
>>> I bet lots of corporate CEO's feel creative.  Never mentioned.  There
>>> seemed to be only two levels, working with ones head and working with  
>>> ones
>>> hands and always acting as individuals.  It is like no one ever  
>>> organized
>>> to do anything, which of course, manifestly part of human reality.   
>>> Labor
>>> struggles, wars, running governments, building global corporations.
>>> People in power struggles.  Not part of the reality considered.
>>>
>>> Larry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/1/13 1:04 PM, "Tadit Anderson" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>  This video has a major contribution to the nature of theory, science,
>>>> technology, and simply being in the everyday world. Excellent  
>>>> production
>>>> as well.
>>>>
>>>> https://vimeo.com/45403954
>>>>

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
May 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
September 1998
August 1998
July 1998
June 1998
May 1998

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LIST.UVM.EDU

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager