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October 2018

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Subject:
From:
Jane Stein <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
Vermont Birds <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Tue, 16 Oct 2018 11:46:29 -0400
Content-Type:
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You're right, of course, Zach.  But that's one of those things that's on 
the impressionistic side, depending on the angle and whether it just 
ate, not to mention having just fluffed its feathers out.  But I should 
have said "bulky" rather than "chesty."  Thanks for the correction!

Jane
(Shoreham)


On 10/16/2018 11:37 AM, zach schwartz-weinstein wrote:
> Just an additional note - the “chesty” look is actually a fieldmark for
> sharp-shinned over cooper’s.  Cooper’s hawks have a more even, tubular
> shape.  Sharp-shinned hawks are barrel-chested and top-heavy.
> 
> ZSW
> 
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:44 AM Jane Stein <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
>> You bet, Cynthia!  Very clear tail feather length and fat legs.  That
>> flat look of the head in the last photo with its crest slightly raised
>> is also a good ID factor when it appears.  Sharpies do not have that.
>>
>> Sharpie versus Coop is often a difficult call, but sticking to the
>> basics helps to clear up most questions.  In soaring flight way up over
>> your head, as hawkwatchers often see them, none of those indicators can
>> usually be seen, so it's often a lot harder.
>>
>> Jane
>> (Shoreham)
>>
>> On 10/16/2018 9:26 AM, Cynthia Crawford wrote:
>>> On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 21:45:07 -0400, Jane Stein <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Heh!  Sharpie vs Cooper is the single most difficult ID among raptor
>>>> enthusiasts, so no shame if you got it wrong-- if you did!  Actual
>>>> raptor experts might have a different take than Zach and I do.
>>>> Experienced hawkwatchers have been known to literally come to blows over
>>>> the ID.  But... I doubt it.  I'm an enthusiast of many years, not an
>>>> actual expert!
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't rely on the "bug-eyed" look since it depends so much on the
>>>> angle of the bird and the picture and the familiarity of the observer
>>>> with these guys.  But the tail feather length in such a clear pose as
>>>> you got (not always the case in photos in the field!) is truly
>>>> definitive, as is the thickness of the legs, when you can see them.
>>>> Banders have wildly different bands for Coops and Sharpies, and once I
>>>> saw those, I was totally convinced of the dramatic difference between
>>>> the 2 species, not just variation from individual to individual.  Pretty
>>>> much everything else is more impressionistic, so not really reliable for
>>>> ID, only as contributing factors that can very easily lead the observer
>>>> astray.
>>>>
>>>> One other factor to consider is that although there are more Coops
>>>> around than there used to be, Sharpies still outnumber them by quite a
>>>> bit. So Sharpie is the default ID for a smallish Accipeter, and an ID of
>>>> Cooper's needs more confirmation from observable characteristics like
>>>> leg size and tail feather lengths.
>>>>
>>>> Resist the ebird police!  But do let us know here if you get interesting
>>>> feedback, positive or negative, OK?
>>>>
>>>> Jane
>>>> (Shoreham)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/15/2018 8:25 PM, Cynthia Crawford wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 09:01:54 -0400, Jane Stein <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Agreed, Zach.  The tail feathers, despite the broad white tips, are
>> the
>>>>>> main tip-off-- all the same length.  In this tail position, Coop's has
>>>>>> noticeably shorter outer tail feathers.  The relatively small,
>> bug-eyed
>>>>>> head is another.  Chest streaking is harder to judge, for me anyway,
>>>>>> because it's not that consistent from bird to bird.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It does look large and chesty for a Sharpie, but that may be the lack
>> of
>>>>>> context from this close, since it's impossible to tell from the photos
>>>>>> how large those branches and trunks are.  And a big female Sharpies
>> can
>>>>>> be pretty close to male Coop's in size.  Lastly, I'd add this bird's
>>>>>> rather thin, stick-like legs, although there's only a glimpse of them
>> in
>>>>>> the one pic that shows the bird lifting off from its branch, as
>>>>>> contrasted with the Coop's thick, sturdy-looking legs.  The Coop often
>>>>>> chases prey on foot, whereas the Sharpie rarely does, so the
>> difference
>>>>>> in the evolution of leg size actually has a purpose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jane
>>>>>> (Shoreham)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/15/2018 7:35 AM, zach schwartz-weinstein wrote:
>>>>>>> Sharpie, with the messier reddish streaking, bug-eyed appearance,
>> small
>>>>>>> head and bill, and even-length tail feathers.  Nice photos.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 7:33 AM Veer Frost <
>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gorgeous, thank you, hope someone will know.Veer Frost, Passumpsic
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On October 14, 2018 at 9:55 PM, "cynthia crawford"  wrote:Got some
>>>>>>>> pretty good pictures- pretty sure this is a Cooper's. Opinions
>>>>>>>> welcome:
>>>>>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/33836164@N03/albums/72157700879431161
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cynthia Crawford
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Creature Kinships and Natural Affinities*
>>>>>>>> Animal and Nature Paintings, Portraits and Prints
>>>>>>>> NEW WEB SITE:
>>>>>>>> www.creaturekinships.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> www.creaturekinships.com
>>>>>>>> MORE PHOTOS and ARTWORK: http://pbase.com/creaturekinships
>>>>>>>> EVEN MORE PHOTOS: https://www.flickr.com/photos/33836164@N03/
>>>>>>>> Castle & Court Music for Harp:
>>>>>>>> http://galleries.creaturekinships.com/?page_id=59
>>>>>>>> BLOG: http://creature-kinships.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Zach and Jane- appreciate your thoughts. I noticed the thin
>> legs/feet especially, but felt the head was a bit large. Perhaps because of
>> the extended neck photo. I wasn't aware of the "bug-eyed" feature for
>> Sharpies, so that's helpful. I think I will report it as a sharpie and see
>> if I get corrected by the ebird "police". ;).
>>>>>
>>> Gotcha, Jane. Will report id the "ebird police" come after me. ;).
>> Meanwhile, here's a very sure Cooper's Hawk:
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/33836164@N03/albums/72157702301051484. I
>> think the tail tells all here...or maybe it's a tall tail? ;)
>>>
>>

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