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COMMUNET Home

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COMMUNET  December 1994, Week 1

COMMUNET December 1994, Week 1

Subject:

Re: Getting things rolling

From:

Charles Stewart <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Communet: Community and Civic Network Discussion List

Date:

Fri, 2 Dec 1994 01:45:48 -0800

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (247 lines)

Marilyn,
        You said:
 
>       OK Chuck.  I looked a little at that list of questions and
> ran out of discipline.
 
        Are you attempting to communicate to me that my endeavor in
attempting to facilitate direct voting is causing you
frustrations? I didn't intend it to, if that is what you mean. I
really don't know what concerns you are trying to relay.
 
>       All I want to do is spend budgets together.  The rest of the
> software is platform.
 
        I can't believe you are choosing your words appropriately
here Marilyn. You have made so many passion filled statements
concerning the merits and benefits to society generally if we can
get our "direct democracy thing rolling". In fact as, I recall, it
was your first use of that phrase as a solution to some problem
another was bemoaning which prompted me to encapsulate as the
title of this subject string. I just cant believe that "all" you
want to do is spend budgets together. Is it a high priority? Yes,
most certainly. To me (and probably the others) also. But is that
"all"? Certainly not. Come on Marilyn, you didn't really mean that
did you?
 
>       Is it OK if I fill out the personal info, but use Putnam
> Barber's votes?  Put gets the first proxy?  Yes? No?  How is
> this decided? You know I'd vote against it.
 
        Thank you for filling out the registration form. I know you
are beautifully dedicated to these principles of democracy
Marilyn. Our vote tally of Stryker's issue number 1 presently
indicates that a majority are responding in support the use of
proxies. That question was not composed to address internal
operations of our little group here. In future editions, perhaps
we could include a question more specifically focused on this
issue. I would gravitate towards using the data assembled
addressing Sytryker's question to decide this issue simply because
it is the closest thing we have at present. Thus from my single
perspective, your ability to give your proxy to Putnam is
validated by the vote tally data available. But I have what I feel
is a more serious concern.
        How come you are presenting these conflicting vibes to us.
You submitted Putnam's ballot, in your letter, but you left his ID
# on it. We can't count it as yours if it has Putnamb's ID on it.
        And if you did want to use Putnam's ballot, do you realize he
is voting in support of proxies? What gives? Your track record
plainly indicated a different posture.
        And Putnam indicated indifference in his support of eVote.
Your support of eVote is well known. These contradictory vibes
you are sending into this fragile incubating process I feel are
counter productive. Is there any thing I can do to harmonize our
energies more effectively? This effort will loose immensely if we
fail to win your monumental talents into at least some form of
marginal endorsement of these efforts.
 
> Chuck:
>> against calling our endeavor the Participatory Democracy
>> Project. Can I ask why? I also noted that you voted in support
>> of Ms Willard's
>
>       This really demonstrates the power of the public vote.  It
> forces discussion.  Will Put change our votes?  What does
> Participatory Democracy mean?  What is its relationship to
> plebecitism?  Tell me again, who frames the questions?
 
        I love it when you talk this way. Voting increases the
quality of the debate, and debating increases the quality of the
votes. It's a positive feedback mechanism.
        As to your last Q:
        The questions submitted in the Communet ballot were composed
and edited by me in efforts to "get things rolling". I admit I
took liberties here that were less than optimal for the integrity
of the process. Optimally the person submitting each question
would "frame the question" any darn way he/she pleases. It should
be an "open onramp".  If it's phrased stupidly or prejudicially
(as many of them will be), the other participants voting on the
value of the question will presumably place a low value on it, and
it will be democratically positioned near the bottom of the
subject list in future editions of the ballot/questionnaire.
Perhaps we would even place questions which received a value of
less than 50 or so in an archive somewhere, and only publish those
that maintained a certain level of support.
 
> Participatory Democracy might be a word that describes the
> process.
 
        I would appreciate your support of adopting the PDP name.
Putnam voted against it.
 
>       I don't want to go off to another listserver.  This
> conversation belongs here I think.  I get private email from our
> activities on this list and it's private email that I want.
> Also, my idea was to pick a spot and stay put.
>
> Our conversation makes a sort of presence for Electronic
> Democracy. If we made our own list, would it be more private?  I
> don't want that.
 
        I agree. This list is a great place to "get things rolling".
It is read by a lot of people who are quite up to speed on these
issues. We don't face the learning curve we would elsewhere. And
we need to propagate these ideas in fertile soil. The communet is
perhaps the most fertile soil on the planet for these ideas to
take hold and grow. I feel that moving to a narrower audience for
the discussion and/or implementation of these ideas would be very
un-strategic at this point. I would like to see "things get
rolling" to the point where we had so many people involved in the
process and/or discussion that concerns for propagating our ideas
were no longer as high on the priority list as say our concerns
for the efficiency of our own area and our keeping our impact on
this list to an unobtrusive level. At that point I would vote in
support of moving the endeavor to an area of cyberspace
specifically dedicated to these issues. It looks like Putnam is
conceding on this point too. Thanks Putnam.
 
        And on an older msg:
 
>       If you give Joe your proxy, Joe has more power than me.  Joe
> gloats. I sulk.  It's not fair.
 
        Admittedly Joe would have more power than you. Temporarily.
So long as stryker was on vacation in the maintains with his
family. And so long as Stryker didn't find out that his votes were
being irresponsibly entered into the system.
 
        Do you agree we should frame the issue this way:
 
        "We should resolve to insure that all members of the
        community are encouraged to participate to the greatest
        extent possible in the governing process."
 
        Do you object to this framing of the proposition?
 
        Certainly you have no objections to people voluntarily
forming coalitions do you?. And if you don't, then how is the
integrity of the process harmed by allowing another member of his
coalition to advance the agenda of his coalition by punching in
the keys on the computer to register his votes.
        I mean so long as a reclusive member of the community has
confidence in the ability of another community member to represent
his concerns in the voting process, then what's the problem.
He/she can get a printout of how his votes were cast, and if he is
dis-satisfied, he will come to you and ask You to represent him
next time. And if we design in no vote closing date, he/she should
be able to just change a bad rep's vote once he/she they get the
chance.
        I mean under your focus, what it all gets down to (once we
get it well engineered) is who is typing on the keys. I feel this
is not a good focus.
        The issue is weather the data being typed in on the keys is
the accurate voting preferences of as many free sovereign
independent responsible individuals as possible.
        If the integrity of each individual member of the community's
voting preference data is accurately entered in to the system,
then what's the big deal over the mechanics of the data entry.
Even if those mechanics included another person.
        If you perceive that an agenda in opposition to your own is
being advanced by the Stryker/Joe coalition, then your solution to
your problem is to find your own coalition and ask them to assign
their votes to you. That way you can balance the Stryker/Joe
coalition in the voting results. Sulking Marilyn? Come on, you're
not going to try to win this debate just because the rest of us
don't want to see such a talented woman sulk.
        If your agenda is similar to the Joe/Stryker coalition, then
you should be happy that Stryker gets a vacation while Joe
represents your mutual views to the community. Stryker's votes are
not lost merely because he absolutely needs a vacation.
        I see parallels between free markets and democracy. We just
have to learn to trust each other more. I imagine libertarian
free market economics is on shaky ground in this group Marilyn,
but It seems to me that your statement indicates you perceive
problems with allowing people to interact as responsible adults.
        Stryker is a responsible adult. If stryker wants to trust Joe
with his proxy more than he wants to trust you, that's Stryker's
choice. Stryker should be able to spend some time away with his
family in the mountains. He should be able to engineer the most
insurance he can that his concerns that the governing process will
not deteriorate in his absence. If he believes Joe or yourself
will reflect his views responsibly, he should be able to
temporarily entrust either of you with stewardship of his proxy.
Withholding this liberty from participants makes their butts tight
and their stomachs knotty. We are all too stressed out. Stryker
and all of us need to be able to develop mechanisms for insuring
that our concerns can be effectively addressed if we step away
from the darn computer terminal long enough to take a breath of
fresh air.
        In fact this is one area that many detractors of direct
democracy complain about. They entrench against us because they
perceive that if they did not stay involved in computer politics
all of the time (glued to the terminal) their concerns would go
unaddressed. It appears that your model validates their concerns.
Representative Republicanism would have a distinct advantage to
this segment, and if we ever did gain power, and we had these
issues on the ballot, they would probably just come into our
system long enough to vote to dismantle our precious direct
democracy system and reinstate Representative Republicanism just
so that they could have the latitude in their personal lives to
trust another person with their share of the governing process
again.
 
        And for the record, is eVote capable of handling proxies?
        Or did I see some indication between you and Stryker that the
program is structured so that this is impossible? To me and many
others this is an important point.
 
        Your Sept 21-94 letter to the House Subcommittee on elections
is a work of art. There are a few minor points upon which I would
like to constructively (am...aw..) voice a dissenting opinion on
though. Later though, It is a work of art and deserves attention
all by itself. Overall it was great. I really hope we can work
together with the others and make something good happen. I really
like:
 
>       It counts the votes for the local BBS community and it shares
> its local statistics with all the other BBS communities. It does
> this sharing of statistics by sending email messages to the
> other vote-keepers. Each community's head count and statistics,
> but not the individual votes, are publicly posted.  Each
> vote-keeper calculates the overall tally independently.  Any
> community that grows suspicious about the validity of its
> publicly posted statistics can meet online or in person to check
> those statistics. Because the local statistics are public,
> anyone can check the overall tallies by hand. All this
> redundancy provides superb security.
 
        Sounds excellent. But can people who want to break through
the darkness of secrecy by publicly posting their ballot have this
done with eVote. I perceive that many activists, would like to
become points of light to the community. With their entire voting
file made public, they can assume a market oriented position of
leadership. So long as we are burdened with representative
republicanism, at least all of the votes of legislators should be
made public in manners such as this.
                                                Chuck...
 
 
        Charles Stewart at 39275 Hood St, # D; Sandy Oregon,PZ-97055
                   ph-503-668-5091. [log in to unmask]
        Producer of the Portland area MCTV cable access show:
                   the "Participatory Democracy Project".
        "I know of no safe depository of the powers of society but
        the people themselves; and if we think they will not exercise
        control with discretion, the remedy is not to take it from
        them, but to educate them. ***"  T. Jefferson, 1821

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