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>Hmmm ... let's look at the 5-year averages that are much more indicative of
probabilities than one fluke season:<

Talk about saying anything to prove a point! Who cares about 5 year
averages. THIS YEAR was a bad snow year. Where were the MRG totals? What
good is last years avergae to me today! If you are a family spending money
on a vacation does it make sense to go to an area that doesn't make snow or
one that has no water to make snow or should you look to areas that can make
significant amounts of snow? Answer the question! Adn if you were looking to
save some money wouldn't Tremblant be a nice alternative.

>>>or High Camp at Squaw An eyesore.  Yep, that outdoor swimming pool and
bungee-jumping tower really contributes to the high alpine experience.<<

I'm not defending High Camp. The point I am making Marc is are you going to
cross Squaw Valey of off your list of places to ski because of High Camp?
Does High Camp dimish your Alpine Experience when you are skiing the trees
off Red Dog? Does the State Prison like Cliff Lodge diminish your experience
at Snowbird? The list is endless so holding out the summit at Tremblant as
an example of their disneyfication of the Alpine ski experience is a bit
disengenuous. If this is how you feel than I imagine that the places you are
willing to ski are quite limited.

>>I think that you're off your rocker.  Once you get there, there are no
fewer than 4 sides of the mountain that one can descend.>snip<

I think that actually the maps make it much more confusing than it is. It is
really a very simple mountain to navigate. I was more confused by the map.
Once skiing, it is actually easy to navigate.

You started this off by slagging Tremblant and touting Smuggs ( which I
changed to SB for some unknown reson) and MRG. Now your talking about ski
areas in the townships. Come on! Stick to the comparison you started! This
year Tremblant had better conditions than MRG was open more days and was a
LOT cheaper and it was certainly much much cheaper than Smuggs.

>Then may I suggest that you pass on your Québec exploration next season and
just keeping going to Tremblant?  That, quite frankly, is just fine by me.<

I am always interetsed in trying out new experinces so I will try to go. My
experience at Tremblant heightened my interets in the areas that Leigh has
talked about. The Quebecois were so nice and being away in a foreign country
especailly a French speaking one is a lot of fun for me and my family. But
again you skirt by the question. How do you justify taking full advantage of
the technological advances in equip while at the same time whining about the
advances in mountain ops. You want Alpine Experience then don't ride any
chairlift including that polluting single. Put on some wooden skis and ski
the ungroomed and we'll hear quite a different tune. I did it for a number
of years.

>>I'd rather ride a slow lift than fight for a spot on the trail.
Descending into the village, and Leigh will vouch for me on this one, I have
never seen an anthill like I saw at Tremblant. <<

Like I said I wouldn't go there on a holiday or weekend. But that's just
common sense.

A fun festive atmosphere enhances the ski experience to me. After a hard day
skiing I like being able to walk to my room and swim or relax in a hot tub
and then to stroll about in a nice enviroment whether it is a real mining
town like Aspen or a disneyesqe village at Tremblant. It is not the primary
reason why I choose a resort but it's nice when it adds to the experience.
Colorful buildings or a band outside in the afternoon light are fun.
Evrything doesn't have to be a town square with a white church and steeple.

You tried to make the point that Tremblant had diminshed the ski experience.
I disagree. The succesful development at the resort which is very tastefully
done has allowed conditions on the mountain and therefore the skiing to
improve. Change is not always bad and sometimes it is quite good at least I
think so everytime I step into a P60 or Vertigo. The bad raps on snow making
and high speed lifts really are a misdirection that is used by people that
are really putting down others who in essence they feel are not worthy of
entering their exclusive ski world. I take the more the merrier approach.
Don't get me wrong I snicker just like the rest of you when there is a foot
of fresh and I hear people complain about how bad the skiing is but that's
just the way it is. Most people don't have the time, money or energy to
invest in getting good at skiing. That's why there's snowboarding! We all
enjoy cruising. It's pretty sweet to hit a corduroy cruiser on a cold early
winter morning and see the snow sparkle and your shadow as the sun rises
behind you. I don't have to always push it. I just enjoy being out there
sometimes. God forbid you are a blue square skier who likes the groomed and
wants to have a nice lunch on a deck with your friends. To me this kind of
experience is the quintessential ski experience. The camaraderie of skiing
and communing with friends.Being outside in the mountains having fun in
whatever form it takes. Some do it with a nice bottle of Merlot and some do
it with trail mix out of a rucksack. To me it's all good. But I know that
when I was at Tremblant I was not missing anything at MRG and I also know
that I was getting a real bargain.

Ps:

That video is awesome Wes! Is that Hot Tuna?


-----Original Message-----
From: Vermont Skiing Discussion and Snow Reports
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Marc Guido
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 10:48 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [SKIVT-L] Annual Tally


>Why would you go to two of the worst mountains for snowmaking and
>spend essentially the same amount of money for what would most likely be
>inferior conditions?


Sugarbush: 253"
MRG: 250"
Tremblant: 144"

'Nuf said.  In more ways than one, Tremblant is nothing but a francophone
Okemo.

>As I said before, Stowe would be a much better choice
>anyway.

Maybe, for those who can afford it.  I, for one, couldn't afford to take my
family there for a long weekend, much less a ski week.

>Ok well  better cross off Le Brevent at Chamonix

Never had the pleasure.

>or High Camp at Squaw

An eyesore.  Yep, that outdoor swimming pool and bungee-jumping tower really
contributes to the high alpine experience.

>God forbid there should actually be a
>tastefully done structure where you can actually get a decent meal AND be
>able to sit down to eat it.

Not to mention going for a swim or bungee jumping from a tastefully done
bungee jumping tower at 8,200'.

>Is your axe to grind with Intrawest?

I have no axe to grind with Intrawest, with you, or with anyone else.  I
call 'em like I see 'em.  I'll patronize what I appreciate, and you'll
patronize what you appreciate.  That's why they make cars in different
colors.  Intrawest's project at, say, Panorama is a far cry from what
they've done at places like Tremblant or Blue.  What Intrawest does (sell
vacations to the masses) it does well.  I just don't appreciate a
mass-produced ski "experience."

>>>What makes a better ski experience?  Trails with character.  Better
>snowfall.  (Tremblant ranks amongst the worst in northeastern N.A. for
>natural snow.)  Places where the natural elements of the mountain haven't
>been systematically removed.<<
>
>Well I think that at least this year Tremblant had better snowfall than
much
>of "northeastern N.A.".

Think again.

RSN December Snow: Sugarloaf 19, Wildcat 17, Jay 63, Stowe 50, Killington
20, Stratton 17, Tremblant 20, Snowshoe 11.
RSN January Snow: Sugarloaf 41, Jay 86, Stowe 77, Sugarbush 51, Killington
50, Stratton 45, Mt. Tremblant 18.
RSN February Snow: Sugarloaf 14, Jay 36, Stowe 47, Sugarbush 26, Killington
41, Stratton 33, Mt. Tremblant 27, Mt. St. Anne 47.
RSN March Snow: Sugarloaf 31, Jay 81, Stowe 53, Sugarbush 42, Killington 34,
Stratton 46, Mt. Tremblant 43, Mt. St. Anne 37.

December-Mar. Summaries:

Tremblant: 108"
Sugarbush (missing Dec. stat, substituted Stowe's, the next closest): 169"
K-Mart: 145"
Sugarloaf: 105"
Stowe: 227"
Jay: 266"

>I don't lose any ski partners whether at an area or backcountry

You've never ended up at a lift and lost someone who you thought was also
going to end up at the same lift?  You're either a much better and more
attentive person than I am, or you need to get out more.

>and I
>certainly don't lose children I ski with.

I was speaking about reconnecting with them after turning them loose for a
while.

>I don't know how old your kids are

11

>but I am not turning mine loose any time
>soon whether it's at Tremblant or MRG.

At Tremblant, I wouldn't either.  We therefore seek out experiences where I
can.  It's for his personal satisfaction, not mine.

>And actually at Tremblant all lifts
>lead to the summit where it's hard to get lost. Just head for that big
>building you hate!

Here's where, with no disrespect intended, I think that you're off your
rocker.  Once you get there, there are no fewer than 4 sides of the mountain
that one can descend.  Go the wrong way, and you're some 15 road minutes
away from where you started on the polar opposite side of the hill.  Why do
you think that Tremblant publishes a separate "summit map" on their trail
map?  Why did they put those cockamamie banners on the trails in the first
place, color-coordinated with the aspect that is being descended?  Fer
chrissakes, it's to help keep people from getting confused and lost!

>As for friendly people, I found the employees at
>Tremblant to be among the best trained and most helpful in the ski business
>and your implication that somehow the customers that ski there are somehow
>not helpful is BS.

I never implied anything of the kind.

>Well at MRG you can sit and gripe about how slow the lifts are while your
>freezing your asses off I guess. That makes for wonderful ski memories.

I'd rather ride a slow lift than fight for a spot on the trail.  Descending
into the village, and Leigh will vouch for me on this one, I have never seen
an anthill like I saw at Tremblant.  I can't wait to get home to post a
picture of the complete and utter insanity.  It was only due to a fleeting
moment of consideration to Intrawest that I didn't publish that photo in my
story.  Quite frankly, it made me scared to even be there for fear of being
hit.

>Forget the nice lodge with seats forget the colorful festive
>atmosphere give me a lady serving $3.00 hot chocolate in a hair net and I
>feel like I'm in the mountains! Give me a break.

No, give me a break.  I'll take the hairnet, styrofoam cup and $0.50 hot
chocolate over a $3 hot chocolate served in a ceramic mug in a "nice lodge
with seats" and a "colorful festive atmosphere."  Yep, skiing is all about
colorful, festive atmospheres.  Must be why Tremblant painted that hokey
faux-Québecois village in so many different colors.

>My family and I had many
>wonderful meals at Tremblant for far less money than you would spend at any
>US resort.

And for double the price of anywhere else in Québec.

>Better food

Get to the Charlevoix, and you'll eat your words along with your meal.

>at better prices.

Go anywhere else in the province.

>There is a lot to like about skiing in Eastern Canada and I look forward to
>hopefully being able to check out the provinces with Leigh next year.

Good -- it'll be an eye-opening experience for you.

>Honestly, I have a very hard time understanding where you are coming from

Yes, you do.

>You trash talk a
>mountain but offer up nothing more than vague references to "character" of
>trails

Uh, hello?  How about 2,500 words on the subject?
http://www.FirstTracksOnline.com/tremblant2001.htm

>and instead would recommend 2 areas that had a hard time remaining
>open

MRG is doing financially just fine, as I'm sure the shareholders would be
more than happy to point out.  Sugarbush needs to straighten their financial
house, but has had no "hard time remaining open."

>let alone having good skiing

So, MRG and Sugarbush have no good skiing?  Tell me you're not so stuck on
making your point that you actually believe this to be true.

>and it's all in the name of some kind of
>hardcore mountain man aesthetic.

Are you and I talking about the same thread?  You know, the one about family
ski experiences?  I'm having a hard time picturing a hardcore mountain man
in a hair net serving hot chocolate.

>If you feel that high speed lifts, great
>snowmaking, good food, grooming etc. diminish the experience

Let me take them in order:

>high speed lifts

They do diminish the experience.

>great snowmaking

It does diminish the experience.

>Good food

Ancillary.  Nice, but not necessary.  Has nothing to do with skiing.

>grooming

Generally speaking, it does diminish the experience.

I'll never forget one of David Goodman's comments at dinner with the GM of
Solitude this past January: "High-speed quads and snowmaking have done more
than anything else to ruin many a good ski area."

>then may I
>suggest that you truly get back to the roots of the sport. Come on now,
give
>up your plastic boots, fat skis, sidecuts, releasable bindings, lightweight
>poles, Gore-Tex, thinsulate etc etc and really get back to it.

Then may I suggest that you pass on your Québec exploration next season and
just keeping going to Tremblant?  That, quite frankly, is just fine by me.

>You can't
>embrace one area of improvement while trashing the other.

You say improvement, I say destruction.  You say tomato, I say tomah-to.

>I look forward to
>seeing you at MRG next season on 225cm wooden skis with cable bindings,
>leather boots and bamboo poles dressed in wool (green plaid of course).

Would be fun for the experience, if you ask me.

>40
>years later I'm glad skiing is not the same.

Tremblant, Killington, Okemo, etc. will happily continue to thrive with your
business.  Keep patronizing them.  Please.

--
-----
Marc Guido, Editor & Publisher
First Tracks!! Online Ski Magazine
12515 Rockrose Glen
Lakewood Ranch, FL 34202-2833
Toll-Free Voice & Fax: 866.293.9107 (US Only)
Voice: 941.587.9664

[log in to unmask]
http://www.FirstTracksOnline.com/
-----
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