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but c'mon Mitchel!  Lets say this list was "Geography for the People" 
and there was some guy who was insisting the world is flat and trying 
to debunk the evidence that the world is round.  There would be 
something of a consensus in the world that the world was round, but 
of course there is some fraction of people who will insist otherwise.

Why should a list allow that conversation about round or flat when 
its such a colossal waste of time?

What meaning would an argument have about having open minds on that topic?

In my book, 1) that issue is a not worth the bandwidth 2) the issue 
of open minds is not germane to established fact.



>One reason not to ban information on this list is because people -- 
>well, I for one -- learn from the information  presented, even when 
>I disagree with portions of it.
>
>It's not about the "convincing" or attempts thereof. It's about the 
>process of keeping an open mind. Those who do have not foreclosed 
>learning. This list is not only for those who already have closed 
>their minds. It would be a terrible shame to impose that methodology 
>on the rest of us.
>
>Mitchel Cohen
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Michael H Goldhaber <[log in to unmask]>
>>Sent: Aug 2, 2008 2:46 PM
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: Censored topics: Clarification requested
>>
>>Basically (3): criticizing the view  that infection with HIV is a 
>>necessary precursor to AIDS. Most of us have no doubt of the 
>>correctness of that view, and we are not at all likely to be convinced 
>>otherwise by any of the panoply of arguments you and others have 
>>advanced or might in the future. You have fought the good (?) fight. 
>>Why waste more breath on this?
>>
>>Best,
>>Michael
>>
>>On Aug 2, 2008, at 6:09 AM, Jim West wrote:
>>
>>>  So that I don't break forum rules,
>>>
>>>  Which topic is censored?
>>>
>>>  1) Missing references in HIV papers.
>>>
>>>  2) Semantics of "virus isolation".
>>>
>>>  or
>>>
>>>  3) Any criticism of HIV theory.
>>>
>>>
>>>  Jim West
>>>  www.geocities.com/noxot
>>>
>>>  ====
>>>  On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 12:02:18 -0700, Michael H Goldhaber <[log in to unmask]
>>>  > wrote:
>>>
>>>>  Jim,
>>>>
>>>>  I asked you and others to stop posting on this topic. It is quite
>>>>  clear to me that no evidence will persuade you. Likewise, you will 
>>>>  not
>>>>  persuade most of us. If you post again on this, unless other list
>>>>  members object, I will moderate all your posts and remove those on
>>>>  this topic. That will delay all your posts, as I cannot be constantly
>>>>  monitoring.
>>>>
>>>>  Michael
>>>>  -------
>>>>  Michael H. Goldhaber
>>>>  SftP list moderator
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  On Aug 1, 2008, at 11:06 AM, Jim West wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  Michael Goldhaber;
>>>>>
>>>>>  You write:
>>>>>
>>>>>  "Isolating an bioactive agent merely means being able to culture it
>>>>>  from infected tissue, that is grow it in more or less pure form, 
>>>>>  then
>>>>>  detect the agent , say by electron microscopy and then use it to
>>>>>  transmit the infection in some way."
>>>>>
>>>>>  My response:
>>>>>
>>>>>  "More or less pure" ??  That would mean the resulting observations
>>>>>  would be
>>>>>  "more or less pure".   In the case of many viruses, the virus is
>>>>>  virtually
>>>>>  undetectable in the "pure strain".
>>>>>
>>>>>  Inspired by definition of "isolating a bioactive agent", I have
>>>>>  looked up a
>>>>>  standard definition for "isolate" and it is contradicts you, unless
>>>>>  you are
>>>>>  accenting your phrase, "less pure".
>>>>>
>>>>>  "Isolate: A sample from a defined source." -- Roger Hull, Fred
>>>>>  Brown, Chris
>>>>>  Payne, Virology: Directory and Dictionary of Animal, Bacterial, and
>>>>>  Plant
>>>>>  Viruses (1989)
>>>>>
>>>>>  Not very precise.  That could mean "mud from a pond".
>>>>>
>>>>>  Virus "isolation" seems to be a great... semantic achievement.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Jim West
>>>>>  www.geocities.com/noxot
>>>>>
>>>>>  =====
>>>>>  On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 23:26:31 -0700, Michael H Goldhaber <[log in to unmask]
>  >>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  1. Isolating an bioactive agent merely means being able to 
>>>>>>  culture it
>>>>>>  from infected tissue, that is grow it in more or less pure form, 
>>>>>>  then
>>>>>>  detect the agent , say by electron microscopy and then use it to
>>>>>>  transmit the infection in some way. For anyone genuinely  
>>>>>>  interested,
>>>>>>  I am sure any textbook on infectious diseases would explain this.
>>>>>>  Such
>>>>>>  books can be found in any medical library, and probably in any
>>>>>>  hospital library.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  2. Likewise there are books and journals devoted to HIV/AIDs by now
>>>>>>  that surely would provide numerous references to the isolation of 
>>>>>>  the
>>>>>>  virus in many different laboratories.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  3. If you read further down the reference Michael Balter provided 
>>>>>>  you
>>>>>>  will see citations related to isolating HIV from AIDS cases.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  4. Therefore, I think it is pretty clear that the people 
>>>>>>  questioning
>>>>>>  the HIV hypothesis do not want to be enlightened on this subject, 
>>>>>>  and
>>>>>>  are  finding utterly fake reasons to  continue to argue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  5. So please drop the subject. It is phony.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Michael
>>>>>>  -------
>>>>>>  Michael H. Goldhaber
>>>>>>  SftP list moderator
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>


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Jose Morales Ph.D.