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Date:         Sun, 7 Dec 2008 19:21:45 +0400
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              cupidity Hatcher <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         cupidity Hatcher <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      [SPAM?:#] Listing of infectious disease specialists and many more
              specialties
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Here is the package deal we're running for this week

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good until December 12


Send email to [log in to unmask] to ensure no further communication
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Date:         Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:29:51 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Rhiannon Johnson <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Rhiannon Johnson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Mountain-top Removal for coal mining video link
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This video emphasizes my firm and personal believe that there is no such
thing as "clean-coal".

-- 
Rhi

+ Please consider the environmental impact of printing this message.

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This video emphasizes my firm and personal believe that there is no such thing as &quot;clean-coal&quot;. <br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Rhi<br><br>+ Please consider the environmental impact of printing this message. <br>

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Date:         Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:21:44 -0800
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      not natural building products?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--- On Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

=A0Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the majority of g=
reen building products (not natural building products such as straw bales).=
..=20
=A0
I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production of most straw and =
since some of it is coming from Canada, there's also transportation costs. =
"Natural" building materials are not necessarily immune from the environmen=
tal costs of other materials. 
--0-2020688455-1228951304=:18905
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<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV><FONT color=#0000bf><FONT color=#000000>--- On <STRONG>Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></STRONG> wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">
<DIV id=yiv16816363><STRONG><FONT color=#000000>&nbsp;Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the majority of green building products (not <I>natural </I>building products such as straw bales)... </FONT></STRONG></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000bf><STRONG></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000bf><STRONG>I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production of most straw and since some of it is coming from Canada, there's also transportation costs. "Natural" building materials are not necessarily immune from the environmental costs of other materials. </STRONG></FONT></DIV></td></tr></table>
--0-2020688455-1228951304=:18905--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 08:11:44 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>, James <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         James <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
Comments: To: Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
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Re the comment below, unless the straw is grown without the assistance =
of chemical fertilizers and pesticides, or for than matter any farm =
machinery, fossil fuel is also playing its part. But straw has its =
merits for being a fast growing (native) renewable resource.
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Robert Riversong=20
  To: [log in to unmask]
  Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 6:21 PM
  Subject: [VGBNTALK] not natural building products?


        --- On Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]> =
wrote:
           Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the =
majority of green building products (not natural building products such =
as straw bales)...=20

        I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production of most =
straw and since some of it is coming from Canada, there's also =
transportation costs. "Natural" building materials are not necessarily =
immune from the environmental costs of other materials. =20

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.5659" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#008000 size=3D2>Re the comment below, =
unless the=20
straw is grown without the assistance of&nbsp;chemical fertilizers and=20
pesticides, or for than matter any farm machinery,&nbsp;fossil fuel is =
also=20
playing its part. But straw has its merits for being a fast growing =
(native)=20
renewable resource.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #008000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A [log in to unmask]
  href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Robert Riversong</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
  href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 10, =
2008 6:21=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [VGBNTALK] not natural =
building=20
  products?</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
      <TD vAlign=3Dtop>
        <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000bf><FONT color=3D#000000>--- On =
<STRONG>Wed,=20
        12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <I>&lt;<A=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>&gt;</I></STRONG>=20
        wrote:</FONT></DIV>
        <BLOCKQUOTE=20
        style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">
          <DIV id=3Dyiv16816363><STRONG><FONT =
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;Fossil fuel is=20
          still used to manufacture and transport the majority of green =
building=20
          products (not <I>natural </I>building products such as straw =
bales)...=20
          </FONT></STRONG></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT>
        <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000bf><STRONG></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000bf><STRONG>I'm afraid that fossil fuels =
are used=20
        for the production of most straw and since some of it is coming =
from=20
        Canada, there's also transportation costs. "Natural" building =
materials=20
        are not necessarily immune from the environmental costs of other =

        materials.=20
</STRONG></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTM=
L>

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Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:46:10 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
Comments: To: Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Point taken.  I admittedly was thinking of products like Icynene vs. 
straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are part of our entire world.

On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote:
> --- On *Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey /<[log in to unmask]>/* 
> wrote:
>
>     * Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the
>     majority of green building products (not /natural /building
>     products such as straw bales)... *
>
> ** 
> *I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production of most 
> straw and since some of it is coming from Canada, there's also 
> transportation costs. "Natural" building materials are not necessarily 
> immune from the environmental costs of other materials. *
>


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<head>
  <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Point taken.&nbsp; I admittedly was thinking of products like Icynene vs.
straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are part of our entire world.<br>
<br>
On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote:
<blockquote
 cite="mid:[log in to unmask]"
 type="cite">
  <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
    <tbody>
      <tr>
        <td
 style="font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;"
 valign="top">
        <div><font color="#0000bf"><font color="#000000">--- On <strong>Wed,
12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <i><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</a></i></strong>
wrote:</font></font></div>
        <blockquote
 style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">
          <div id="yiv16816363"><font color="#0000bf"><strong><font
 color="#000000">&nbsp;Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and
transport the majority of green building products (not <i>natural </i>building
products such as straw bales)... </font></strong></font></div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><font color="#0000bf"><strong></strong></font>&nbsp;</div>
        <div><font color="#0000bf"><strong>I'm afraid that fossil fuels
are used for the production of most straw and since some of it is
coming from Canada, there's also transportation costs. "Natural"
building materials are not necessarily immune from the environmental
costs of other materials. </strong></font></div>
        </td>
      </tr>
    </tbody>
  </table>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:00:59 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Heather S Driscoll <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Heather S Driscoll <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
Comments: To: Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Oil: too valuable to burn.
Some would argue that now is the time to make best use of petroleum based or
petroleum reliant products for things such as super-insulation for
retro-fits (in new construction thicker walls are an option not requiring
the high R" of foam), or for infrastructure projects such as irrigation
piping, PV panels, et al. Whenever remotely possible: local,
renewable/regenerative, low-impact, and low toxicity should still always be
the preferred technique. After all, there's only a limited supply. Just a
thought.



On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Michelle Smith Mullarkey
<[log in to unmask]>wrote:

>  Point taken.  I admittedly was thinking of products like Icynene vs.
> straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are part of our entire world.
>
> On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote:
>
>   --- On *Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]><[log in to unmask]>
> * wrote:
>
> * Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the majority of
> green building products (not natural building products such as straw
> bales)... *
>
> **
> *I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production of most straw
> and since some of it is coming from Canada, there's also transportation
> costs. "Natural" building materials are not necessarily immune from the
> environmental costs of other materials. *
>
>
>

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Oil: too valuable to burn.<br>Some would argue that now is the time to make best use of petroleum based or petroleum reliant products for things such as super-insulation for retro-fits (in new construction thicker walls are an option not requiring the high R&quot; of foam), or for infrastructure projects such as irrigation piping, PV panels, et al. Whenever remotely possible: local, renewable/regenerative, low-impact, and low toxicity should still always be the preferred technique. After all, there&#39;s only a limited supply. Just a thought.<br>
<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">



  

<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Point taken.&nbsp; I admittedly was thinking of products like Icynene vs.
straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are part of our entire world.<br>
<br>
On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
  <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
    <tbody>
      <tr>
        <td style="font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit;" valign="top">
        <div><font color="#0000bf"><font color="#000000">--- On <b>Wed,
12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <i><a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</a></i></b>
wrote:</font></font></div>
        <blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">
          <div><font color="#0000bf"><b><font color="#000000">&nbsp;Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and
transport the majority of green building products (not <i>natural </i>building
products such as straw bales)... </font></b></font></div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><font color="#0000bf"><b></b></font>&nbsp;</div>
        <div><font color="#0000bf"><b>I&#39;m afraid that fossil fuels
are used for the production of most straw and since some of it is
coming from Canada, there&#39;s also transportation costs. &quot;Natural&quot;
building materials are not necessarily immune from the environmental
costs of other materials. </b></font></div>
        </td>
      </tr>
    </tbody>
  </table>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br>

------=_Part_19835_16381732.1229011259325--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:55:18 -0800
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Icynene vs straw is a good example of the difficulty in making appropriate =
choices of "green" materials.
=9A
While I don't think that spray foams should be used in new construction, st=
uffing straw into existing walls for a retrofit/upgrade is not a sensible o=
ption and with a limited wall cavity Icynene may be the best alternative fo=
r renovation. Even for new construction, straw bales - with their low R-val=
ue per inch (=971.45, about the same as lumber) may not be the best choice.
=9A
Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting installation by-product=
s, Icynene has only a little more embodied energy per cubic foot than fiber=
glass (not that=9AI would recommend fiberglass for anything), typically les=
s installed embodied energy (since framing bays are not generally completel=
y filled) and better efficiency payback.=20
=9A
Best use of remaining fossil energy and petrochemicals? Not so simple to di=
scern.

--- On Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


Point taken.=9A I admittedly was thinking of products like Icynene vs. stra=
w, but it seems fossil fuels really are part of our entire world.

On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote:=20





--- On Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

=9AFossil fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the majority of g=
reen building products (not natural building products such as straw bales).=
..=20
=9A
I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production of most straw and =
since some of it is coming from Canada, there's also transportation costs. =
"Natural" building materials are not necessarily immune from the environmen=
tal costs of other materials.=20

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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>Icynene vs straw is a good example of th=
e difficulty in making appropriate choices of "green" materials.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>While I don't think that spray foams should be used in new constructio=
n, stuffing straw into existing walls for a retrofit/upgrade is not a sensi=
ble option and with a limited wall cavity Icynene may be the best alternati=
ve for renovation. Even for new construction, straw bales - with their low =
R-value per inch (=971.45, about the same as lumber) may not be the best ch=
oice.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting installation by-pr=
oducts, Icynene has only a little more embodied energy per cubic foot than =
fiberglass (not that&nbsp;I would recommend fiberglass for anything), typic=
ally less installed embodied energy (since framing bays are not generally c=
ompletely filled) and better efficiency payback. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Best use of remaining fossil energy and petrochemicals? Not so simple =
to discern.<BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <I>&lt=
;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid">
<DIV id=3Dyiv1294920483>Point taken.&nbsp; I admittedly was thinking of pro=
ducts like Icynene vs. straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are part of =
our entire world.<BR><BR>On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote:=20
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch:=
 inherit" vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000bf><FONT color=3D#000000>--- On <STRONG>Wed, 12/10/=
08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <I><A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E href=3D"ma=
ilto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt=
;</A></I></STRONG> wrote:</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid">
<DIV id=3Dyiv16816363><FONT color=3D#0000bf><STRONG><FONT color=3D#000000>&=
nbsp;Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the majority of=
 green building products (not <I>natural </I>building products such as stra=
w bales)... </FONT></STRONG></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000bf><STRONG></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000bf><STRONG>I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used fo=
r the production of most straw and since some of it is coming from Canada, =
there's also transportation costs. "Natural" building materials are not nec=
essarily immune from the environmental costs of other materials. </STRONG><=
/FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><=
/td></tr></table>
--0-472850337-1229018118=:36555--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:03:15 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Suzy Hodgson <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Suzy Hodgson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
Comments: To: Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3)
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cellulose insulation made with recycled paper is a good green option =20
with performance - high R value  and low ghg emissions
On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong wrote:

> Icynene vs straw is a good example of the difficulty in making =20
> appropriate choices of "green" materials.
>
> While I don't think that spray foams should be used in new =20
> construction, stuffing straw into existing walls for a retrofit/=20
> upgrade is not a sensible option and with a limited wall cavity =20
> Icynene may be the best alternative for renovation. Even for new =20
> construction, straw bales - with their low R-value per inch (=C51.45, =20=

> about the same as lumber) may not be the best choice.
>
> Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting installation by-=20=

> products, Icynene has only a little more embodied energy per cubic =20
> foot than fiberglass (not that I would recommend fiberglass for =20
> anything), typically less installed embodied energy (since framing =20
> bays are not generally completely filled) and better efficiency =20
> payback.
>
> Best use of remaining fossil energy and petrochemicals? Not so =20
> simple to discern.
>
> --- On Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]> =20
> wrote:
> Point taken.  I admittedly was thinking of products like Icynene =20
> vs. straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are part of our entire =20
> world.
>
> On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote:
>>
>> --- On Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]> =20
>> wrote:
>>  Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the =20
>> majority of green building products (not natural building products =20=

>> such as straw bales)...
>>
>> I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production of most =20
>> straw and since some of it is coming from Canada, there's also =20
>> transportation costs. "Natural" building materials are not =20
>> necessarily immune from the environmental costs of other materials.
>


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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">cellulose insulation made with =
recycled paper is a good green option with performance - high R value =
=CAand low ghg emissions=CA<br><div><div>On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, =
Robert Riversong wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><table =
cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td =
valign=3D"top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><div>Icynene vs straw is a good =
example of the difficulty in making appropriate choices of "green" =
materials.</div> <div>=CA</div> <div>While I don't think that spray =
foams should be used in new construction, stuffing straw into existing =
walls for a retrofit/upgrade is not a sensible option and with a limited =
wall cavity Icynene may be the best alternative for renovation. Even for =
new construction, straw bales - with their low R-value per inch (=C51.45, =
about the same as lumber) may not be the best choice.</div> <div>=CA</div>=
 <div>Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting installation =
by-products, Icynene has only a little more embodied energy per cubic =
foot than fiberglass (not that=CAI would recommend fiberglass for =
anything), typically less installed embodied energy (since framing bays =
are not generally completely filled) and better efficiency payback. =
</div> <div>=CA</div> <div>Best use of remaining fossil energy and =
petrochemicals? Not so simple to discern.<br><br>--- On <b>Thu, =
12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <i>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&gt;</i></b> =
wrote:<br></div> <blockquote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"> <div =
id=3D"yiv1294920483">Point taken.=CA I admittedly was thinking of =
products like Icynene vs. straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are =
part of our entire world.<br><br>On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong =
wrote: <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <table cellspacing=3D"0" =
cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0"> <tbody> <tr> <td style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: =
inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch: inherit" valign=3D"top">=
 <div><font color=3D"#0000bf"><font color=3D"#000000">--- On =
<strong>Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <i><a =
class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"nofollow">&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</a></i></strong> =
wrote:</font></font></div> <blockquote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"> <div =
id=3D"yiv16816363"><font color=3D"#0000bf"><strong><font =
color=3D"#000000">=CAFossil fuel is still used to manufacture and =
transport the majority of green building products (not <i>natural =
</i>building products such as straw bales)... =
</font></strong></font></div></blockquote> <div><font =
color=3D"#0000bf"><strong></strong></font>=CA</div> <div><font =
color=3D"#0000bf"><strong>I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the =
production of most straw and since some of it is coming from Canada, =
there's also transportation costs. "Natural" building materials are not =
necessarily immune from the environmental costs of other materials. =
</strong></font></div></td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote><br></div></b=
lockquote></td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote></div><br></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-13--544191357--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:13:25 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Chad Lacasse <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Chad Lacasse <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
Comments: To: Suzy Hodgson <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  A<[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
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Embodied energy is the energy consumed in producing products. Mineral =
insulation comes from furnaces that gulp natural gas to melt sand, slag, =
or rock. Foam plastics are petrochemicals. They are literally made out =
of energy! Cellulose insulation is made by processing recycled wood =
fibers through electrically driven mills that consume relatively little =
energy when they are operating, and which can be shut down completely =
with the flip of a switch at the end of the shift -- or even for lunch =
and coffee breaks. Fiber glass, rock wool, and plastic insulation may =
have from 50 to over 200 times more embodied energy than cellulose.
=20
Preferred Building Systems, our modular home factory installs dense-pack =
cellulose at a 3.8 per inch R value and provides tremendous air sealing =
along with the additional air sealing we install. The cellulose is 85% =
post consumer recycled newspapers with a fungicide and fire retarder.
=20
=20

________________________________

From: VGBN Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Suzy =
Hodgson
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:03 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: not natural building products?


cellulose insulation made with recycled paper is a good green option =
with performance - high R value  and low ghg emissions=20

On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong wrote:


Icynene vs straw is a good example of the difficulty in making =
appropriate choices of "green" materials.
=20
While I don't think that spray foams should be used in new construction, =
stuffing straw into existing walls for a retrofit/upgrade is not a =
sensible option and with a limited wall cavity Icynene may be the best =
alternative for renovation. Even for new construction, straw bales - =
with their low R-value per inch (=971.45, about the same as lumber) may =
not be the best choice.
=20
Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting installation =
by-products, Icynene has only a little more embodied energy per cubic =
foot than fiberglass (not that I would recommend fiberglass for =
anything), typically less installed embodied energy (since framing bays =
are not generally completely filled) and better efficiency payback.=20
=20
Best use of remaining fossil energy and petrochemicals? Not so simple to =
discern.

--- On Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


	Point taken.  I admittedly was thinking of products like Icynene vs. =
straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are part of our entire world.
=09
	On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote:=20

--- On Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]> =
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>  wrote:

	 Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the majority of =
green building products (not natural building products such as straw =
bales)...=20

=20
I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production of most straw =
and since some of it is coming from Canada, there's also transportation =
costs. "Natural" building materials are not necessarily immune from the =
environmental costs of other materials.=20




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	charset="koi8-r"
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dkoi8-r">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16735" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY=20
style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space">
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Century Gothic">Embodied =
energy is the=20
energy consumed in producing products. Mineral insulation comes from =
furnaces=20
that gulp natural gas to melt sand, slag, or rock. Foam plastics are=20
petrochemicals. They are literally made out of energy! Cellulose =
insulation is=20
made by processing recycled wood fibers through electrically driven =
mills that=20
consume relatively little energy when they are operating, and which can =
be shut=20
down completely with the flip of a switch at the end of the shift -- or =
even for=20
lunch and coffee breaks. Fiber glass, rock wool, and plastic insulation =
may have=20
from 50 to over 200 times more embodied energy than =
cellulose.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Century =
Gothic"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D316471018-11122008><FONT=20
face=3D"Century Gothic">Preferred Building Systems, our modular home =
factory=20
installs dense-pack cellulose at a 3.8 per inch R value and provides =
tremendous=20
air sealing along with the additional air sealing we install. The =
cellulose is=20
85% post consumer recycled newspapers with a fungicide and fire=20
retarder.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D316471018-11122008><FONT=20
face=3D"Century Gothic"></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D316471018-11122008><FONT=20
face=3D"Century Gothic"></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> VGBN Discussion=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Suzy =
Hodgson<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:03 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: not natural building=20
products?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>cellulose insulation made with recycled paper is a good green =
option=20
with performance - high R value &nbsp;and low ghg emissions&nbsp;<BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong wrote:</DIV><BR=20
class=3DApple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
  <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
      <TD vAlign=3Dtop>
        <DIV>Icynene vs straw is a good example of the difficulty in =
making=20
        appropriate choices of "green" materials.</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>While I don't think that spray foams should be used in new=20
        construction, stuffing straw into existing walls for a =
retrofit/upgrade=20
        is not a sensible option and with a limited wall cavity Icynene =
may be=20
        the best alternative for renovation. Even for new construction, =
straw=20
        bales - with their low R-value per inch (=971.45, about the same =
as=20
        lumber) may not be the best choice.</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting =
installation=20
        by-products, Icynene has only a little more embodied energy per =
cubic=20
        foot than fiberglass (not that&nbsp;I would recommend fiberglass =
for=20
        anything), typically less installed embodied energy (since =
framing bays=20
        are not generally completely filled) and better efficiency =
payback.=20
        </DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>Best use of remaining fossil energy and petrochemicals? Not =
so=20
        simple to discern.<BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle =
Smith=20
        Mullarkey <I>&lt;<A=20
        href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>&gt;</I></B>=20
        wrote:<BR></DIV>
        <BLOCKQUOTE=20
        style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">
          <DIV id=3Dyiv1294920483>Point taken.&nbsp; I admittedly was =
thinking of=20
          products like Icynene vs. straw, but it seems fossil fuels =
really are=20
          part of our entire world.<BR><BR>On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert =

          Riversong wrote:=20
          <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
            <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
              <TBODY>
              <TR>
                <TD=20
                style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: inherit; font-size-adjust: =
inherit; font-stretch: inherit"=20
                vAlign=3Dtop>
                  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000bf><FONT color=3D#000000>--- =
On=20
                  <STRONG>Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <I><A=20
                  class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
                  target=3D_blank=20
                  =
rel=3Dnofollow>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</A></I></STRONG>=20
                  wrote:</FONT></FONT></DIV>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
                  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">
                    <DIV id=3Dyiv16816363><FONT =
color=3D#0000bf><STRONG><FONT=20
                    color=3D#000000>&nbsp;Fossil fuel is still used to =
manufacture=20
                    and transport the majority of green building =
products (not=20
                    <I>natural </I>building products such as straw =
bales)...=20
                    </FONT></STRONG></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
                  <DIV><FONT =
color=3D#0000bf><STRONG></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
                  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000bf><STRONG>I'm afraid that =
fossil fuels=20
                  are used for the production of most straw and since =
some of it=20
                  is coming from Canada, there's also transportation =
costs.=20
                  "Natural" building materials are not necessarily =
immune from=20
                  the environmental costs of other materials.=20
                  =
</STRONG></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV></=
BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BODY></HTML=
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C95BBC.29447DC4--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:14:09 -0800
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--0-244168122-1229019249=:93992
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There are few instances in which cellulose insulation is not the best optio=
n. Not only is it almost entirely recycled product with very little embodie=
d energy and no toxicity to humans, but it=A0has high resistance to fire (c=
an be used as a firestop), a high sound-attenuating coefficient, is toxic t=
o common household insect pests and an irritant to rodents, is relatively i=
mpervious to air movement but very permeable to moisture (breathes) and so =
hygroscopic that it will protect wood framing from saturation, mold and rot=
, is not corrosive to metal fasteners (if treated with borate and not ammon=
ium sulfate),=A0has the highest R per inch of any of the fibrous insulation=
s (which increases with higher or lower than room temperatures), and not on=
ly won't settle if installed at proper densities but also will expand as wo=
od shrinks or moves to keep all cavities full.

--- On Thu, 12/11/08, Suzy Hodgson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


cellulose insulation made with recycled paper is a good green option with p=
erformance - high R value =A0and low ghg emissions=A0
--0-244168122-1229019249=:93992
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;">There are few instances in which cellulose insulation is not the best option. Not only is it almost entirely recycled product with very little embodied energy and no toxicity to humans, but it&nbsp;has high resistance to fire (can be used as a firestop), a high sound-attenuating coefficient, is toxic to common household insect pests and an irritant to rodents, is relatively impervious to air movement but very permeable to moisture (breathes) and so hygroscopic that it will protect wood framing from saturation, mold and rot, is not corrosive to metal fasteners (if treated with borate and not ammonium sulfate),&nbsp;has the highest R per inch of any of the fibrous insulations (which increases with higher or lower than room temperatures), and not only won't settle if installed at proper densities but also will expand as wood shrinks or moves to keep all cavities
 full.<BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 12/11/08, Suzy Hodgson <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">
<DIV id=yiv986577260>cellulose insulation made with recycled paper is a good green option with performance - high R value &nbsp;and low ghg emissions&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table>
--0-244168122-1229019249=:93992--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:14:20 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Richard Faesy <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Richard Faesy <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
Comments: To: Suzy Hodgson <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="_000_6370BDA6CD706B4FB12A230257F940BC0BDB6F5D96HUBBUBveicorg_"
MIME-Version: 1.0

--_000_6370BDA6CD706B4FB12A230257F940BC0BDB6F5D96HUBBUBveicorg_
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In my book, using petrochemicals for high-performance insulation/air-sealin=
g is a much better use of oil than is burning it to stay warm.

Richard Faesy
Vermont Energy Investment Corp.
14 School Street
Bristol, Vermont  05443
P: 802-453-5100 x19
F: 802-453-5001
C: 802-355-9153

From: VGBN Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Suzy Hodg=
son
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:03 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [VGBNTALK] not natural building products?

cellulose insulation made with recycled paper is a good green option with p=
erformance - high R value  and low ghg emissions
On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong wrote:


Icynene vs straw is a good example of the difficulty in making appropriate =
choices of "green" materials.

While I don't think that spray foams should be used in new construction, st=
uffing straw into existing walls for a retrofit/upgrade is not a sensible o=
ption and with a limited wall cavity Icynene may be the best alternative fo=
r renovation. Even for new construction, straw bales - with their low R-val=
ue per inch (=971.45, about the same as lumber) may not be the best choice.

Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting installation by-product=
s, Icynene has only a little more embodied energy per cubic foot than fiber=
glass (not that I would recommend fiberglass for anything), typically less =
installed embodied energy (since framing bays are not generally completely =
filled) and better efficiency payback.

Best use of remaining fossil energy and petrochemicals? Not so simple to di=
scern.

--- On Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]<mailto:mmsm=
[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Point taken.  I admittedly was thinking of products like Icynene vs. straw,=
 but it seems fossil fuels really are part of our entire world.

On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote:
--- On Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]><mailto:mms=
[log in to unmask]> wrote:
 Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the majority of gre=
en building products (not natural building products such as straw bales)...

I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production of most straw and =
since some of it is coming from Canada, there's also transportation costs. =
"Natural" building materials are not necessarily immune from the environmen=
tal costs of other materials.




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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap: break-wor=
d;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>In my book, using petrochemicals for high-performance
insulation/air-sealing is a much better use of oil than is burning it to st=
ay
warm.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","=
sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Richard Faesy<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","=
sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Vermont Energy Investment Corp.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","=
sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>14 School Street<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","=
sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bristol, Vermont=9A 05443<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","=
sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>P: 802-453-5100 x19<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","=
sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>F: 802-453-5001<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","=
sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>C: 802-355-9153<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> VGBN Discussi=
on
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Suzy Hodgson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:03 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [VGBNTALK] not natural building products?<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>cellulose insulation made with recycled paper is a goo=
d
green option with performance - high R value &nbsp;and low ghg emissions&nb=
sp;<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong wrote:<o:p>=
</o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0>
 <tr>
  <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal>Icynene vs straw is a good example of the difficulty=
 in
  making appropriate choices of &quot;green&quot; materials.<o:p></o:p></p>
  </div>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
  </div>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal>While I don't think that spray foams should be used =
in new
  construction, stuffing straw into existing walls for a retrofit/upgrade i=
s
  not a sensible option and with a limited wall cavity Icynene may be the b=
est
  alternative for renovation. Even for new construction, straw bales - with
  their low R-value per inch (=971.45, about the same as lumber) may not be=
 the
  best choice.<o:p></o:p></p>
  </div>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
  </div>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal>Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting
  installation by-products, Icynene has only a little more embodied energy =
per
  cubic foot than fiberglass (not that&nbsp;I would recommend fiberglass fo=
r
  anything), typically less installed embodied energy (since framing bays a=
re
  not generally completely filled) and better efficiency payback. <o:p></o:=
p></p>
  </div>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
  </div>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal>Best use of remaining fossil energy and petrochemica=
ls?
  Not so simple to discern.<br>
  <br>
  --- On <b>Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <i>&lt;<a
  href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&gt;</i></b> wrote:<o:=
p></o:p></p>
  </div>
  <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:=
0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
  margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
  <div id=3Dyiv1294920483>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal>Point taken.&nbsp; I admittedly was thinking of prod=
ucts
  like Icynene vs. straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are part of our
  entire world.<br>
  <br>
  On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
  <table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0>
   <tr>
    <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;font-size-adjust: inh=
erit;
    font-stretch: inherit'>
    <div>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"inherit","serif";color=
:black'>---
    On <strong><span style=3D'font-family:"inherit","serif"'>Wed, 12/10/08,
    Michelle Smith Mullarkey <i><a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=
=3D"_blank">&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</a></i></span></strong>
    wrote:</span><span style=3D'font-family:"inherit","serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
    </div>
    <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;paddin=
g:
    0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0=
pt'>
    <div id=3Dyiv16816363>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal><strong><span style=3D'font-family:"inherit","seri=
f";
    color:black'>&nbsp;Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and transpo=
rt
    the majority of green building products (not <i>natural </i>building
    products such as straw bales)... </span></strong><span style=3D'font-fa=
mily:
    "inherit","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
    </div>
    </blockquote>
    <div>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"inherit","serif"'>&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
    </div>
    <div>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal><strong><span style=3D'font-family:"inherit","seri=
f";
    color:#0000BF'>I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production=
 of
    most straw and since some of it is coming from Canada, there's also
    transportation costs. &quot;Natural&quot; building materials are not
    necessarily immune from the environmental costs of other materials. </s=
pan></strong><span
    style=3D'font-family:"inherit","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
    </div>
    </td>
   </tr>
  </table>
  </div>
  </blockquote>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

--_000_6370BDA6CD706B4FB12A230257F940BC0BDB6F5D96HUBBUBveicorg_--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:14:20 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Brian McCarthy <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Brian McCarthy <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
Comments: To: Suzy Hodgson <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  A<[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C95BBC.4A3E3DDA"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C95BBC.4A3E3DDA
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="koi8-r"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

There are some "flowable" green alternatives that we know about.  Here's =
an example:

=20

www.airkrete.com <http://www.airkrete.com/>=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

Brian D. McCarthy

Marketing + Business Development

The McKernon Group

(888) 484-4200 office   (802) 247-8501 fax   (802) 342-7760 cell

www.mckernongroup.com <BLOCKED::http://www.mckernongroup.com>=20

________________________________

From: VGBN Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Suzy =
Hodgson
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:03 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: not natural building products?

=20

cellulose insulation made with recycled paper is a good green option =
with performance - high R value  and low ghg emissions=20

On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong wrote:





Icynene vs straw is a good example of the difficulty in making =
appropriate choices of "green" materials.

=20

While I don't think that spray foams should be used in new construction, =
stuffing straw into existing walls for a retrofit/upgrade is not a =
sensible option and with a limited wall cavity Icynene may be the best =
alternative for renovation. Even for new construction, straw bales - =
with their low R-value per inch (=971.45, about the same as lumber) may =
not be the best choice.

=20

Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting installation =
by-products, Icynene has only a little more embodied energy per cubic =
foot than fiberglass (not that I would recommend fiberglass for =
anything), typically less installed embodied energy (since framing bays =
are not generally completely filled) and better efficiency payback.=20

=20

Best use of remaining fossil energy and petrochemicals? Not so simple to =
discern.

--- On Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

	Point taken.  I admittedly was thinking of products like Icynene vs. =
straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are part of our entire world.
=09
	On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote:=20

--- On Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]> =
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>  wrote:

	 Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the majority of =
green building products (not natural building products such as straw =
bales)...=20

=20

I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production of most straw =
and since some of it is coming from Canada, there's also transportation =
costs. "Natural" building materials are not necessarily immune from the =
environmental costs of other materials.=20

=09

=20


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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue style=3D'word-wrap: =
break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>There are some =
&#8220;flowable&#8221; green alternatives
that we know about.&nbsp; Here&#8217;s an =
example:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a =
href=3D"http://www.airkrete.com/">www.airkrete.com</a><o:p></o:p></span><=
/font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;text-align:center'><strong><b><i><font size=3D5 color=3Dmaroon
face=3D"Lucida Handwriting"><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Handwriting";
color:maroon;font-style:italic'>Brian =
D.&nbsp;McCarthy</span></font></i></b></strong><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;text-align:center'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Marketing + Business =
Development</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;text-align:center'><strong><b><font size=3D6 color=3Dolive
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:24.0pt;color:olive'>The McKernon
Group</span></font></b></strong><font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;text-align:center'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>(888) 484-4200&nbsp;office &nbsp; =
(802)
247-8501 fax&nbsp; &nbsp;(802) 342-7760 cell</span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;text-align:center'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a
href=3D"BLOCKED::http://www.mckernongroup.com"
title=3D"http://www.mckernongroup.com/"><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"
title=3D"http://www.mckernongroup.com/"><span
title=3D"http://www.mckernongroup.com/"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Times New =
Roman"'>www.mckernongroup.com</span></span></font></a></span></font><o:p>=
</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt;text-align:center'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> VGBN
Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Suzy Hodgson<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, December =
11, 2008
1:03 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: not natural =
building
products?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>cellulose =
insulation made
with recycled paper is a good green option with performance - high R =
value
&nbsp;and low ghg emissions&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On 11 Dec =
2008, at 12:55,
Robert Riversong wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 =
width=3D576
 style=3D'width:432.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt'>
 <tr>
  <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0pt 0pt 0pt 0pt'>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Icynene vs straw is a good example of the =
difficulty
  in making appropriate choices of &quot;green&quot; =
materials.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </div>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </div>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>While I don't think that spray foams should =
be used
  in new construction, stuffing straw into existing walls for a
  retrofit/upgrade is not a sensible option and with a limited wall =
cavity
  Icynene may be the best alternative for renovation. Even for new =
construction,
  straw bales - with their low R-value per inch (&#8776;1.45, about the =
same as
  lumber) may not be the best choice.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </div>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </div>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Besides having no global warming or =
ozone-depleting
  installation by-products, Icynene has only a little more embodied =
energy per
  cubic foot than fiberglass (not that&nbsp;I would recommend fiberglass =
for
  anything), typically less installed embodied energy (since framing =
bays are
  not generally completely filled) and better efficiency payback. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </div>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </div>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Best use of remaining fossil energy and =
petrochemicals?
  Not so simple to discern.<br>
  <br>
  --- On <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle =
Smith
  Mullarkey <i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&lt;<a
  =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&gt;</span></i></span>=
</b>
  wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </div>
  <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF =
1.5pt;padding:0pt 0pt 0pt 4.0pt;
  margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
  <div id=3Dyiv1294920483>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Point taken.&nbsp; I admittedly was =
thinking of
  products like Icynene vs. straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are =
part of
  our entire world.<br>
  <br>
  On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote: =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 =
cellpadding=3D0>
   <tr>
    <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0pt 0pt 0pt 0pt;font-size-adjust: =
inherit;
    font-stretch: inherit'>
    <div>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack =
face=3Dinherit><span
    style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'>--- On =
<strong><b><font
    face=3Dinherit><span style=3D'font-family:inherit'>Wed, 12/10/08, =
Michelle
    Smith Mullarkey <i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'><a
    href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</a></span></i></span></font></b=
></strong>
    wrote:</span></font><font face=3Dinherit><span =
style=3D'font-family:inherit'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </div>
    <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF =
1.5pt;padding:
    0pt 0pt 0pt =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
    <div id=3Dyiv16816363>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal><strong><b><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack =
face=3Dinherit><span
    =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'>&nbsp;Fossil =
fuel
    is still used to manufacture and transport the majority of green =
building
    products (not <i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>natural =
</span></i>building
    products such as straw bales)... </span></font></b></strong><font
    face=3Dinherit><span =
style=3D'font-family:inherit'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </div>
    </blockquote>
    <div>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3Dinherit><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
    font-family:inherit'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </div>
    <div>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal><strong><b><font size=3D3 color=3D"#0000bf" =
face=3Dinherit><span
    style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:#0000BF'>I'm =
afraid that
    fossil fuels are used for the production of most straw and since =
some of it
    is coming from <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Canada</st1:place></st1:country-region>,
    there's also transportation costs. &quot;Natural&quot; building =
materials
    are not necessarily immune from the environmental costs of other =
materials.
    </span></font></b></strong><font face=3Dinherit><span =
style=3D'font-family:
    inherit'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </div>
    </td>
   </tr>
  </table>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </div>
  </blockquote>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:47:59 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              "Tom \"Doc\" Brudzinski" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "Tom \"Doc\" Brudzinski" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
Comments: To: Chad Lacasse <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
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I do work with a modular manufacturer and have contacts with others. 
They have all stayed away from cellulose because of settlement during 
transportation. Does your group feel the dense-pack eliminates the risk 
of settlement by eliminating the space for settlement to occur??




Chad Lacasse wrote:
> Embodied energy is the energy consumed in producing products. Mineral 
> insulation comes from furnaces that gulp natural gas to melt sand, 
> slag, or rock. Foam plastics are petrochemicals. They are literally 
> made out of energy! Cellulose insulation is made by processing 
> recycled wood fibers through electrically driven mills that consume 
> relatively little energy when they are operating, and which can be 
> shut down completely with the flip of a switch at the end of the shift 
> -- or even for lunch and coffee breaks. Fiber glass, rock wool, and 
> plastic insulation may have from 50 to over 200 times more embodied 
> energy than cellulose.
>  
> Preferred Building Systems, our modular home factory installs 
> dense-pack cellulose at a 3.8 per inch R value and provides tremendous 
> air sealing along with the additional air sealing we install. The 
> cellulose is 85% post consumer recycled newspapers with a fungicide 
> and fire retarder.
>  
>  
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* VGBN Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of 
> *Suzy Hodgson
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:03 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: not natural building products?
>
> cellulose insulation made with recycled paper is a good green option 
> with performance - high R value  and low ghg emissions 
> On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong wrote:
>
>> Icynene vs straw is a good example of the difficulty in making 
>> appropriate choices of "green" materials.
>>  
>> While I don't think that spray foams should be used in new 
>> construction, stuffing straw into existing walls for a 
>> retrofit/upgrade is not a sensible option and with a limited wall 
>> cavity Icynene may be the best alternative for renovation. Even for 
>> new construction, straw bales - with their low R-value per inch 
>> (—1.45, about the same as lumber) may not be the best choice.
>>  
>> Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting installation 
>> by-products, Icynene has only a little more embodied energy per cubic 
>> foot than fiberglass (not that I would recommend fiberglass for 
>> anything), typically less installed embodied energy (since framing 
>> bays are not generally completely filled) and better efficiency payback.
>>  
>> Best use of remaining fossil energy and petrochemicals? Not so simple 
>> to discern.
>>
>> --- On *Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey /<[log in to unmask] 
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>/* wrote:
>>
>>     Point taken.  I admittedly was thinking of products like Icynene
>>     vs. straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are part of our
>>     entire world.
>>
>>     On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote:
>>>     --- On *Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey
>>>     /<[log in to unmask]>/* wrote:
>>>
>>>         * Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the
>>>         majority of green building products (not /natural /building
>>>         products such as straw bales)... *
>>>
>>>     ** 
>>>     *I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production of
>>>     most straw and since some of it is coming from Canada, there's
>>>     also transportation costs. "Natural" building materials are not
>>>     necessarily immune from the environmental costs of other
>>>     materials. *
>>>
>>
>


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I do work with a modular manufacturer and have contacts with others.
They have all stayed away from cellulose because of settlement during
transportation. Does your group feel the dense-pack eliminates the risk
of settlement by eliminating the space for settlement to occur??<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Chad Lacasse wrote:
<blockquote
 cite="mid:[log in to unmask]"
 type="cite">
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; ">
  <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16735" name="GENERATOR">
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Century Gothic">Embodied
energy is the energy consumed in producing products. Mineral insulation
comes from furnaces that gulp natural gas to melt sand, slag, or rock.
Foam plastics are petrochemicals. They are literally made out of
energy! Cellulose insulation is made by processing recycled wood fibers
through electrically driven mills that consume relatively little energy
when they are operating, and which can be shut down completely with the
flip of a switch at the end of the shift -- or even for lunch and
coffee breaks. Fiber glass, rock wool, and plastic insulation may have
from 50 to over 200 times more embodied energy than cellulose.</font></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left">š</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="316471018-11122008"><font
 face="Century Gothic">Preferred Building Systems, our modular home
factory installs dense-pack cellulose at a 3.8 per inch R value and
provides tremendous air sealing along with the additional air sealing
we install. The cellulose is 85% post consumer recycled newspapers with
a fungicide and fire retarder.</font></span></div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="316471018-11122008"></span>š</div>
  <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span class="316471018-11122008"></span>š</div>
  <br>
  <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr" align="left" lang="en-us">
  <hr tabindex="-1"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> VGBN
Discussion [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Suzy
Hodgson<br>
  <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:03 PM<br>
  <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
  <b>Subject:</b> Re: not natural building products?<br>
  </font><br>
  </div>
cellulose insulation made with recycled paper is a good green option
with performance - high R value šand low ghg emissionsš<br>
  <div>
  <div>On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong wrote:</div>
  <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
      <tbody>
        <tr>
          <td valign="top">
          <div>Icynene vs straw is a good example of the difficulty in
making appropriate choices of "green" materials.</div>
          <div>š</div>
          <div>While I don't think that spray foams should be used in
new construction, stuffing straw into existing walls for a
retrofit/upgrade is not a sensible option and with a limited wall
cavity Icynene may be the best alternative for renovation. Even for new
construction, straw bales - with their low R-value per inch (—1.45,
about the same as lumber) may not be the best choice.</div>
          <div>š</div>
          <div>Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting
installation by-products, Icynene has only a little more embodied
energy per cubic foot than fiberglass (not thatšI would recommend
fiberglass for anything), typically less installed embodied energy
(since framing bays are not generally completely filled) and better
efficiency payback. </div>
          <div>š</div>
          <div>Best use of remaining fossil energy and petrochemicals?
Not so simple to discern.<br>
          <br>
--- On <b>Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <i>&lt;<a
 moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&gt;</i></b>
wrote:<br>
          </div>
          <blockquote
 style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">
            <div id="yiv1294920483">Point taken.š I admittedly was
thinking of products like Icynene vs. straw, but it seems fossil fuels
really are part of our entire world.<br>
            <br>
On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote:
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
                <tbody>
                  <tr>
                    <td
 style="font-family: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;"
 valign="top">
                    <div><font color="#0000bf"><font color="#000000">---
On <strong>Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <i><a
 moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
 href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</a></i></strong>
wrote:</font></font></div>
                    <blockquote
 style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">
                      <div id="yiv16816363"><font color="#0000bf"><strong><font
 color="#000000">šFossil fuel is still used to manufacture and
transport the majority of green building products (not <i>natural </i>building
products such as straw bales)... </font></strong></font></div>
                    </blockquote>
                    <div><font color="#0000bf"><strong></strong></font>š</div>
                    <div><font color="#0000bf"><strong>I'm afraid that
fossil fuels are used for the production of most straw and since some
of it is coming from Canada, there's also transportation costs.
"Natural" building materials are not necessarily immune from the
environmental costs of other materials. </strong></font></div>
                    </td>
                  </tr>
                </tbody>
              </table>
            </blockquote>
            <br>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          </td>
        </tr>
      </tbody>
    </table>
  </blockquote>
  </div>
  <br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>

--------------060306070801020500050409--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:48:26 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              "RH Irving Co Inc." <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "RH Irving Co Inc." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      FW: not natural building products?
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=20

=20

  _____ =20

From: VGBN Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian
McCarthy
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:14 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: not natural building products?

=20

There are some =93flowable=94 green alternatives that we know about.  =
Here=92s an
example:

=20

www.airkrete.com <http://www.airkrete.com/> <o:p></o:p></span>

=20

=20

=93While I don't think that spray foams should be used in new =
construction =93

I=92m curious why

Bob Irving (builder)

=20

Brian D. McCarthy

Marketing + Business Development

The McKernon Group

(888) 484-4200 office   (802) 247-8501 fax   (802) 342-7760 cell

 <BLOCKED::http://www.mckernongroup.com> www.mckernongroup.com

  _____ =20



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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
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</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> VGBN =
Discussion
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of </span></b>Brian
McCarthy<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, December =
11, 2008
1:14 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: not natural =
building
products?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>There are some =
&#8220;flowable&#8221;
green alternatives that we know about.&nbsp; Here&#8217;s an =
example:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a =
href=3D"http://www.airkrete.com/">www.airkrete.com</a><o:p></o:p></span><=
/font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;text-align:center'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&#8220;</span></font><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblack
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>While I
don't think that spray foams should be used in new =
construction</span></font><strong><b><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black;font-weight:normal'> =
&#8220;<o:p></o:p></span></font></b></strong></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;text-align:center'><strong><b><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:norma=
l'>I&#8217;m
curious why<o:p></o:p></span></font></b></strong></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;text-align:center'><strong><b><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;font-weight:norma=
l'>Bob
Irving (builder)</span></font></b></strong><strong><b><i><font size=3D5
color=3Dmaroon face=3D"Lucida Handwriting"><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;
font-family:"Lucida =
Handwriting";color:maroon;font-style:italic'><o:p></o:p></span></font></i=
></b></strong></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;text-align:center'><strong><b><i><font size=3D5 color=3Dmaroon
face=3D"Lucida Handwriting"><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Handwriting";
color:maroon;font-style:italic'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></i></b></=
strong></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;text-align:center'><strong><b><i><font size=3D5 color=3Dmaroon
face=3D"Lucida Handwriting"><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Lucida Handwriting";
color:maroon;font-style:italic'>Brian =
D.&nbsp;McCarthy</span></font></i></b></strong><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;text-align:center'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>Marketing + Business =
Development</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;text-align:center'><strong><b><font size=3D6 color=3Dolive
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:24.0pt;color:olive'>The McKernon
Group</span></font></b></strong><font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;text-align:center'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>(888) 484-4200&nbsp;office &nbsp; =
(802)
247-8501 fax&nbsp; &nbsp;(802) 342-7760 cell</span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;text-align:center'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><a
href=3D"BLOCKED::http://www.mckernongroup.com"
title=3D"http://www.mckernongroup.com/"><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"
title=3D"http://www.mckernongroup.com/"><span
title=3D"http://www.mckernongroup.com/"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:
"Times New =
Roman"'>www.mckernongroup.com</span></span></font></a></span></font><o:p>=
</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<div style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> VGBN
Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Suzy Hodgson<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, December =
11, 2008
1:03 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: not natural =
building
products?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>cellulose insulation made with recycled paper =
is a
good green option with performance - high R value &nbsp;and low ghg
emissions&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0 =
width=3D576
 style=3D'width:6.0in;margin-left:.5in'>
 <tr>
  <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Icynene vs straw is a good example of the =
difficulty
  in making appropriate choices of &quot;green&quot; =
materials.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </div>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </div>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>While I don't think that spray foams should =
be used
  in new construction, stuffing straw into existing walls for a =
retrofit/upgrade
  is not a sensible option and with a limited wall cavity Icynene may be =
the
  best alternative for renovation. Even for new construction, straw =
bales -
  with their low R-value per inch (=971.45, about the same as lumber) =
may not be
  the best choice.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </div>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </div>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Besides having no global warming or =
ozone-depleting
  installation by-products, Icynene has only a little more embodied =
energy per
  cubic foot than fiberglass (not that&nbsp;I would recommend fiberglass =
for
  anything), typically less installed embodied energy (since framing =
bays are
  not generally completely filled) and better efficiency payback. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </div>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </div>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Best use of remaining fossil energy and
  petrochemicals? Not so simple to discern.<br>
  <br>
  --- On <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle =
Smith
  Mullarkey <i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>&lt;<a
  =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&gt;</span></i></span>=
</b>
  wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </div>
  <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF =
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
  margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
  <div id=3Dyiv1294920483>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Point taken.&nbsp; I admittedly was =
thinking of
  products like Icynene vs. straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are =
part of
  our entire world.<br>
  <br>
  On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote: =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 =
cellpadding=3D0>
   <tr>
    <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;font-size-adjust: =
inherit;
    font-stretch: inherit'>
    <div>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack =
face=3Dinherit><span
    style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'>--- On =
<strong><b><font
    face=3Dinherit><span style=3D'font-family:inherit'>Wed, 12/10/08, =
Michelle Smith
    Mullarkey <i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'><a
    href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank">&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</a></span></i></span></font></b=
></strong>
    wrote:</span></font><font face=3Dinherit><span =
style=3D'font-family:inherit'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </div>
    <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF =
1.5pt;padding:
    0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
    <div id=3Dyiv16816363>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal><strong><b><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack =
face=3Dinherit><span
    =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:black'>&nbsp;Fossil =
fuel
    is still used to manufacture and transport the majority of green =
building
    products (not <i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>natural =
</span></i>building
    products such as straw bales)... </span></font></b></strong><font
    face=3Dinherit><span =
style=3D'font-family:inherit'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </div>
    </blockquote>
    <div>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3Dinherit><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
    font-family:inherit'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </div>
    <div>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal><strong><b><font size=3D3 color=3D"#0000bf" =
face=3Dinherit><span
    style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:inherit;color:#0000BF'>I'm =
afraid that
    fossil fuels are used for the production of most straw and since =
some of it
    is coming from <st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:country-region =
w:st=3D"on">Canada</st1:country-region></st1:place>,
    there's also transportation costs. &quot;Natural&quot; building =
materials
    are not necessarily immune from the environmental costs of other =
materials.
    </span></font></b></strong><font face=3Dinherit><span =
style=3D'font-family:
    inherit'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </div>
    </td>
   </tr>
  </table>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </div>
  </blockquote>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C95B97.26643320--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:37:21 -0800
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
Comments: To: Brian McCarthy <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-959611885-1229024241=:21484"

--0-959611885-1229024241=:21484
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

What is the embodied energy of Air Krete?

--- On Thu, 12/11/08, Brian McCarthy <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Brian McCarthy <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: not natural building products?
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Thursday, December 11, 2008, 1:14 PM








There are some =E2=80=9Cflowable=E2=80=9D green alternatives that we know a=
bout.=C2=A0 Here=E2=80=99s an example:
=C2=A0
www.airkrete.com
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0

Brian D.=C2=A0McCarthy
Marketing + Business Development
The McKernon Group
(888) 484-4200=C2=A0office =C2=A0 (802) 247-8501 fax=C2=A0 =C2=A0(802) 342-=
7760 cell
www.mckernongroup.com




From: VGBN Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Suzy Hodg=
son
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:03 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: not natural building products?
=C2=A0
cellulose insulation made with recycled paper is a good green option with p=
erformance - high R value =C2=A0and low ghg emissions=C2=A0


On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong wrote:








Icynene vs straw is a good example of the difficulty in making appropriate =
choices of "green" materials.

=C2=A0

While I don't think that spray foams should be used in new construction, st=
uffing straw into existing walls for a retrofit/upgrade is not a sensible o=
ption and with a limited wall cavity Icynene may be the best alternative fo=
r renovation. Even for new construction, straw bales - with their low R-val=
ue per inch (=E2=89=881.45, about the same as lumber) may not be the best c=
hoice.

=C2=A0

Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting installation by-product=
s, Icynene has only a little more embodied energy per cubic foot than fiber=
glass (not that=C2=A0I would recommend fiberglass for anything), typically =
less installed embodied energy (since framing bays are not generally comple=
tely filled) and better efficiency payback.=20

=C2=A0

Best use of remaining fossil energy and petrochemicals? Not so simple to di=
scern.

--- On Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


Point taken.=C2=A0 I admittedly was thinking of products like Icynene vs. s=
traw, but it seems fossil fuels really are part of our entire world.

On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote:=20





--- On Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


=C2=A0Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the majority o=
f green building products (not natural building products such as straw bale=
s)...=20

=C2=A0

I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production of most straw and =
since some of it is coming from Canada , there's also transportation costs.=
 "Natural" building materials are not necessarily immune from the environme=
ntal costs of other materials.=20

=C2=A0
--0-959611885-1229024241=:21484
Content-Type: text/html; charset=gb2312
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;">What is the embodied energy of Air Krete?<BR>=
<BR>--- On <B>Thu, 12/11/08, Brian McCarthy <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&=
gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid">From: Brian McCarthy &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;<=
BR>Subject: Re: not natural building products?<BR>To: [log in to unmask]
<BR>Date: Thursday, December 11, 2008, 1:14 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv3699699>
<STYLE>
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<DIV class=3DSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">There are some =A1=B0=
flowable=A1=B1 green alternatives that we know about.&nbsp; Here=A1=AFs an =
example:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><=
/DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><A href=3D"http://www=
.airkrete.com/" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>www.airkrete.com</A></SPAN><=
/FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><=
/DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><=
/DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><=
/DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><=
/DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=3Dcenter><STRONG><B=
><I><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting" color=3Dmaroon size=3D5><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 18pt; COLOR: maroon; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: 'Lucid=
a Handwriting'">Brian D.&nbsp;McCarthy</SPAN></FONT></I></B></STRONG><FONT =
color=3Dnavy><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: navy"></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=3Dcenter><FONT face=
=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
COLOR: navy">Marketing + Business Development</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3Dna=
vy><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: navy"></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=3Dcenter><STRONG><B=
><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dolive size=3D6><SPAN style=3D"FONT-=
SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: olive">The McKernon Group</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FON=
T color=3Dnavy><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: navy"></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=3Dcenter><FONT face=
=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
COLOR: navy">(888) 484-4200&nbsp;office &nbsp; (802) 247-8501 fax&nbsp; &nb=
sp;(802) 342-7760 cell</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3Dnavy><SPAN style=3D"COLOR=
: navy"></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=3Dcenter><FONT face=
=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy;=
 FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><A title=3Dhttp://www.mckernongroup.com/ rel=3Dnofollo=
w><FONT title=3Dhttp://www.mckernongroup.com/ face=3D"Times New Roman" size=
=3D3><SPAN title=3Dhttp://www.mckernongroup.com/><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'">www.mckernongroup.com</SPAN></SPAN></=
FONT></A></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt; TEXT-ALIGN: center" alig=
n=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE=
: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><B><FONT face=3DTahoma siz=
e=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahom=
a">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-=
SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> VGBN Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]
.edu] <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Suzy Hod=
gson<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, Dec=
ember 11, 2008 1:03 PM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></=
B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</=
SPAN></B> Re: not natural building products?</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face=3D"Times New Ro=
man" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face=3D"Times New Ro=
man" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">cellulose insulation made wit=
h recycled paper is a good green option with performance - high R value &nb=
sp;and low ghg emissions&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face=3D"Times New Ro=
man" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Rob=
ert Riversong wrote:</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face=3D"Times New Ro=
man" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<TABLE class=3DMsoNormalTable style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt; WIDTH: 432pt" cel=
lSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 width=3D576 border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0pt; PA=
DDING-TOP: 0pt" vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D=
"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Icynene vs straw is a good example of the difficulty in m=
aking appropriate choices of "green" materials.</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D=
"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D=
"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">While I don't think that spray foams should be used in ne=
w construction, stuffing straw into existing walls for a retrofit/upgrade i=
s not a sensible option and with a limited wall cavity Icynene may be the b=
est alternative for renovation. Even for new construction, straw bales - wi=
th their low R-value per inch (=A1=D61.45, about the same as lumber) may no=
t be the best choice.</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D=
"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D=
"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting insta=
llation by-products, Icynene has only a little more embodied energy per cub=
ic foot than fiberglass (not that&nbsp;I would recommend fiberglass for any=
thing), typically less installed embodied energy (since framing bays are no=
t generally completely filled) and better efficiency payback. </SPAN></FONT=
></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D=
"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D=
"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Best use of remaining fossil energy and petrochemicals? N=
ot so simple to discern.<BR><BR>--- On <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold"=
>Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <I><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: ital=
ic">&lt;<A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>m=
[log in to unmask]</A>&gt;</SPAN></I></SPAN></B> wrote:</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DI=
V>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0pt; BORDER-=
TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; P=
ADDING-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; =
PADDING-TOP: 0pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV id=3Dyiv1294920483>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D=
"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Point taken.&nbsp; I admittedly was thinking of products =
like Icynene vs. straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are part of our en=
tire world.<BR><BR>On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote: </SPAN></=
FONT></DIV>
<TABLE class=3DMsoNormalTable cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0pt; PA=
DDING-TOP: 0pt; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch: inherit" vAlign=3D=
top>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3Dinherit color=3Dblack size=3D3><SPAN styl=
e=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">--- On <STRONG><B=
><FONT face=3Dinherit><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: inherit">Wed, 12/10/08, M=
ichelle Smith Mullarkey <I><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><A href=3D"ma=
ilto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt=
;</A></SPAN></I></SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG> wrote:</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=
=3Dinherit><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0pt; BORDER-=
TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; P=
ADDING-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; =
PADDING-TOP: 0pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV id=3Dyiv16816363>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=3Dinherit color=3Dblack size=3D3=
><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">&nbsp;=
Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the majority of gree=
n building products (not <I><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">natural </SP=
AN></I>building products such as straw bales)... </SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG=
><FONT face=3Dinherit><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT></=
DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3Dinherit size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE=
: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=3Dinherit color=3D#0000bf size=
=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #0000bf; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">=
I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production of most straw and =
since some of it is coming from Canada , there's also transportation costs.=
 "Natural" building materials are not necessarily immune from the environme=
ntal costs of other materials. </SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT face=3Dinhe=
rit><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV></TD></T=
R></TBODY></TABLE>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D=
"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY>=
</TABLE></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face=3D"Times New Ro=
man" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV></D=
IV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table>
--0-959611885-1229024241=:21484--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:39:59 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Chad Lacasse <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Chad Lacasse <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
Comments: To: "Tom \"Doc\" Brudzinski" <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  A<[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C95BC8.41367E91"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="koi8-r"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Our manufacturing process guarantees there is no settling in the =
transportation process. I would love the opportunity to show any and all =
how we do what we do and the building science that goes into our =
product, as well as our relentless pursuit of green building and energy =
efficiency.
=20
Chad
[log in to unmask]

________________________________

From: VGBN Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tom =
"Doc" Brudzinski
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:48 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: not natural building products?


I do work with a modular manufacturer and have contacts with others. =
They have all stayed away from cellulose because of settlement during =
transportation. Does your group feel the dense-pack eliminates the risk =
of settlement by eliminating the space for settlement to occur??




Chad Lacasse wrote:=20

	Embodied energy is the energy consumed in producing products. Mineral =
insulation comes from furnaces that gulp natural gas to melt sand, slag, =
or rock. Foam plastics are petrochemicals. They are literally made out =
of energy! Cellulose insulation is made by processing recycled wood =
fibers through electrically driven mills that consume relatively little =
energy when they are operating, and which can be shut down completely =
with the flip of a switch at the end of the shift -- or even for lunch =
and coffee breaks. Fiber glass, rock wool, and plastic insulation may =
have from 50 to over 200 times more embodied energy than cellulose.
	=20
	Preferred Building Systems, our modular home factory installs =
dense-pack cellulose at a 3.8 per inch R value and provides tremendous =
air sealing along with the additional air sealing we install. The =
cellulose is 85% post consumer recycled newspapers with a fungicide and =
fire retarder.
	=20
	=20

________________________________

	From: VGBN Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Suzy =
Hodgson
	Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:03 PM
	To: [log in to unmask]
	Subject: Re: not natural building products?
=09
=09
	cellulose insulation made with recycled paper is a good green option =
with performance - high R value  and low ghg emissions=20
=09
	On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong wrote:


Icynene vs straw is a good example of the difficulty in making =
appropriate choices of "green" materials.
=20
While I don't think that spray foams should be used in new construction, =
stuffing straw into existing walls for a retrofit/upgrade is not a =
sensible option and with a limited wall cavity Icynene may be the best =
alternative for renovation. Even for new construction, straw bales - =
with their low R-value per inch (=971.45, about the same as lumber) may =
not be the best choice.
=20
Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting installation =
by-products, Icynene has only a little more embodied energy per cubic =
foot than fiberglass (not that I would recommend fiberglass for =
anything), typically less installed embodied energy (since framing bays =
are not generally completely filled) and better efficiency payback.=20
=20
Best use of remaining fossil energy and petrochemicals? Not so simple to =
discern.

--- On Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


	Point taken.  I admittedly was thinking of products like Icynene vs. =
straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are part of our entire world.
=09
	On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote:=20

--- On Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]> =
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>  wrote:

	 Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the majority of =
green building products (not natural building products such as straw =
bales)...=20

=20
I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production of most straw =
and since some of it is coming from Canada, there's also transportation =
costs. "Natural" building materials are not necessarily immune from the =
environmental costs of other materials.=20





------_=_NextPart_001_01C95BC8.41367E91
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="koi8-r"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dkoi8-r">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16735" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY text=3D#000000 bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D731303819-11122008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Our manufacturing process guarantees there is =
no settling=20
in the transportation process. I would love the opportunity to show any =
and all=20
how we do what we do and the building science that goes into our =
product, as=20
well as our relentless pursuit of green building and energy=20
efficiency.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D731303819-11122008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D731303819-11122008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Chad</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D731303819-11122008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">clacasse@preferredbuildin=
gs.com</A></FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> VGBN Discussion=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Tom "Doc"=20
Brudzinski<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:48 =
PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: not natural building=20
products?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>I do work with a modular manufacturer and have contacts with =
others.=20
They have all stayed away from cellulose because of settlement during=20
transportation. Does your group feel the dense-pack eliminates the risk =
of=20
settlement by eliminating the space for settlement to=20
occur??<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Chad Lacasse wrote:=20
<BLOCKQUOTE =
cite=3Dmid:[log in to unmask]
type=3D"cite">
  <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16735" name=3DGENERATOR>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Century Gothic">Embodied =
energy is the=20
  energy consumed in producing products. Mineral insulation comes from =
furnaces=20
  that gulp natural gas to melt sand, slag, or rock. Foam plastics are=20
  petrochemicals. They are literally made out of energy! Cellulose =
insulation is=20
  made by processing recycled wood fibers through electrically driven =
mills that=20
  consume relatively little energy when they are operating, and which =
can be=20
  shut down completely with the flip of a switch at the end of the shift =
-- or=20
  even for lunch and coffee breaks. Fiber glass, rock wool, and plastic=20
  insulation may have from 50 to over 200 times more embodied energy =
than=20
  cellulose.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D316471018-11122008><FONT=20
  face=3D"Century Gothic">Preferred Building Systems, our modular home =
factory=20
  installs dense-pack cellulose at a 3.8 per inch R value and provides=20
  tremendous air sealing along with the additional air sealing we =
install. The=20
  cellulose is 85% post consumer recycled newspapers with a fungicide =
and fire=20
  retarder.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN =
class=3D316471018-11122008></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN =
class=3D316471018-11122008></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> VGBN Discussion [<A=20
  class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>] =
<B>On=20
  Behalf Of </B>Suzy Hodgson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 11, 2008 =
1:03=20
  PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR><B>Sub=
ject:</B>=20
  Re: not natural building products?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>cellulose =
insulation=20
  made with recycled paper is a good green option with performance - =
high R=20
  value &nbsp;and low ghg emissions&nbsp;<BR>
  <DIV>
  <DIV>On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong wrote:</DIV><BR=20
  class=3DApple-interchange-newline>
  <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
    <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
      <TBODY>
      <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>
          <DIV>Icynene vs straw is a good example of the difficulty in =
making=20
          appropriate choices of "green" materials.</DIV>
          <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV>While I don't think that spray foams should be used in =
new=20
          construction, stuffing straw into existing walls for a=20
          retrofit/upgrade is not a sensible option and with a limited =
wall=20
          cavity Icynene may be the best alternative for renovation. =
Even for=20
          new construction, straw bales - with their low R-value per =
inch=20
          (=971.45, about the same as lumber) may not be the best =
choice.</DIV>
          <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV>Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting =
installation=20
          by-products, Icynene has only a little more embodied energy =
per cubic=20
          foot than fiberglass (not that&nbsp;I would recommend =
fiberglass for=20
          anything), typically less installed embodied energy (since =
framing=20
          bays are not generally completely filled) and better =
efficiency=20
          payback. </DIV>
          <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV>Best use of remaining fossil energy and petrochemicals? =
Not so=20
          simple to discern.<BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle =
Smith=20
          Mullarkey <I>&lt;<A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
          moz-do-not-send=3D"true">[log in to unmask]</A>&gt;</I></B>=20
wrote:<BR></DIV>
          <BLOCKQUOTE=20
          style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">
            <DIV id=3Dyiv1294920483>Point taken.&nbsp; I admittedly was =
thinking=20
            of products like Icynene vs. straw, but it seems fossil =
fuels really=20
            are part of our entire world.<BR><BR>On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, =
Robert=20
            Riversong wrote:=20
            <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
              <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
                <TBODY>
                <TR>
                  <TD=20
                  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: inherit; font-size-adjust: =
inherit; font-stretch: inherit"=20
                  vAlign=3Dtop>
                    <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000bf><FONT color=3D#000000>--- =
On=20
                    <STRONG>Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey =
<I><A=20
                    class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
                    target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow=20
                    =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</A></I></STRONG>=20
                    wrote:</FONT></FONT></DIV>
                    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
                    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">
                      <DIV id=3Dyiv16816363><FONT =
color=3D#0000bf><STRONG><FONT=20
                      color=3D#000000>&nbsp;Fossil fuel is still used to =

                      manufacture and transport the majority of green =
building=20
                      products (not <I>natural </I>building products =
such as=20
                      straw bales)... =
</FONT></STRONG></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
                    <DIV><FONT=20
color=3D#0000bf><STRONG></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
                    <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000bf><STRONG>I'm afraid that =
fossil=20
                    fuels are used for the production of most straw and =
since=20
                    some of it is coming from Canada, there's also=20
                    transportation costs. "Natural" building materials =
are not=20
                    necessarily immune from the environmental costs of =
other=20
                    materials.=20
            =
</STRONG></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV></=
BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>=
<BR></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C95BC8.41367E91--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:46:58 -0800
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
Comments: To: "Tom \"Doc\" Brudzinski" <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-196597299-1229024818=:14341"

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Do you have documentation of cellulose settlement problems during transport=
?
=A0
The settled density of cellulose is 1.5 - 2.0 pcf. If it is blown into clos=
ed cavities at 3.0 - 3.5 pcf (which would be easier to monitor in a factory=
 setting than on site), then it cannot possibly settle unless there was phy=
sical degradation of the fiber.=20

--- On Thu, 12/11/08, Tom "Doc" Brudzinski <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


I do work with a modular manufacturer and have contacts with others. They h=
ave all stayed away from cellulose because of settlement during transportat=
ion. Does your group feel the dense-pack eliminates the risk of settlement =
by eliminating the space for settlement to occur??
--0-196597299-1229024818=:14341
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>Do you have documentation of cellulose settlement problems during transport?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The settled density of cellulose is 1.5 - 2.0 pcf. If it is blown into closed cavities at 3.0 - 3.5 pcf (which would be easier to monitor in a factory setting than on site), then it cannot possibly settle unless there was physical degradation of the fiber. <BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 12/11/08, Tom "Doc" Brudzinski <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">
<DIV id=yiv209010452>I do work with a modular manufacturer and have contacts with others. They have all stayed away from cellulose because of settlement during transportation. Does your group feel the dense-pack eliminates the risk of settlement by eliminating the space for settlement to occur??</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table>
--0-196597299-1229024818=:14341--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:54:12 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Suzy Hodgson <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Suzy Hodgson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
Comments: To: "Tom \"Doc\" Brudzinski" <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3)
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Are there any externally published factors for the embodied carbon of =20=

different insulation materials?
On 11 Dec 2008, at 13:47, Tom Doc Brudzinski wrote:

> I do work with a modular manufacturer and have contacts with =20
> others. They have all stayed away from cellulose because of =20
> settlement during transportation. Does your group feel the dense-=20
> pack eliminates the risk of settlement by eliminating the space for =20=

> settlement to occur??
>
>
>
>
> Chad Lacasse wrote:
>>
>> Embodied energy is the energy consumed in producing products. =20
>> Mineral insulation comes from furnaces that gulp natural gas to =20
>> melt sand, slag, or rock. Foam plastics are petrochemicals. They =20
>> are literally made out of energy! Cellulose insulation is made by =20
>> processing recycled wood fibers through electrically driven mills =20
>> that consume relatively little energy when they are operating, and =20=

>> which can be shut down completely with the flip of a switch at the =20=

>> end of the shift -- or even for lunch and coffee breaks. Fiber =20
>> glass, rock wool, and plastic insulation may have from 50 to over =20
>> 200 times more embodied energy than cellulose.
>>
>> Preferred Building Systems, our modular home factory installs =20
>> dense-pack cellulose at a 3.8 per inch R value and provides =20
>> tremendous air sealing along with the additional air sealing we =20
>> install. The cellulose is 85% post consumer recycled newspapers =20
>> with a fungicide and fire retarder.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: VGBN Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of =20
>> Suzy Hodgson
>> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:03 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: not natural building products?
>>
>> cellulose insulation made with recycled paper is a good green =20
>> option with performance - high R value  and low ghg emissions
>> On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong wrote:
>>
>>> Icynene vs straw is a good example of the difficulty in making =20
>>> appropriate choices of "green" materials.
>>>
>>> While I don't think that spray foams should be used in new =20
>>> construction, stuffing straw into existing walls for a retrofit/=20
>>> upgrade is not a sensible option and with a limited wall cavity =20
>>> Icynene may be the best alternative for renovation. Even for new =20
>>> construction, straw bales - with their low R-value per inch =20
>>> (=C51.45, about the same as lumber) may not be the best choice.
>>>
>>> Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting installation =20
>>> by-products, Icynene has only a little more embodied energy per =20
>>> cubic foot than fiberglass (not that I would recommend fiberglass =20=

>>> for anything), typically less installed embodied energy (since =20
>>> framing bays are not generally completely filled) and better =20
>>> efficiency payback.
>>>
>>> Best use of remaining fossil energy and petrochemicals? Not so =20
>>> simple to discern.
>>>
>>> --- On Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]> =20
>>> wrote:
>>> Point taken.  I admittedly was thinking of products like Icynene =20
>>> vs. straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are part of our =20
>>> entire world.
>>>
>>> On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote:
>>>>
>>>> --- On Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]> =20=

>>>> wrote:
>>>>  Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the =20
>>>> majority of green building products (not natural building =20
>>>> products such as straw bales)...
>>>>
>>>> I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production of most =20=

>>>> straw and since some of it is coming from Canada, there's also =20
>>>> transportation costs. "Natural" building materials are not =20
>>>> necessarily immune from the environmental costs of other materials.
>>>
>>
>


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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Are there any externally =
published factors for the embodied carbon of different insulation =
materials?<br><div><div>On 11 Dec 2008, at 13:47, Tom Doc Brudzinski =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">  I do work with a modular manufacturer and have contacts =
with others. They have all stayed away from cellulose because of =
settlement during transportation. Does your group feel the dense-pack =
eliminates the risk of settlement by eliminating the space for =
settlement to occur??<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> Chad Lacasse wrote: =
<blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:[log in to unmask]" =
type=3D"cite">      <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><font face=3D"Century =
Gothic">Embodied energy is the energy consumed in producing products. =
Mineral insulation comes from furnaces that gulp natural gas to melt =
sand, slag, or rock. Foam plastics are petrochemicals. They are =
literally made out of energy! Cellulose insulation is made by processing =
recycled wood fibers through electrically driven mills that consume =
relatively little energy when they are operating, and which can be shut =
down completely with the flip of a switch at the end of the shift -- or =
even for lunch and coffee breaks. Fiber glass, rock wool, and plastic =
insulation may have from 50 to over 200 times more embodied energy than =
cellulose.</font></div>  <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left">=CA</div>  <div =
dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span class=3D"316471018-11122008"><font =
face=3D"Century Gothic">Preferred Building Systems, our modular home =
factory installs dense-pack cellulose at a 3.8 per inch R value and =
provides tremendous air sealing along with the additional air sealing we =
install. The cellulose is 85% post consumer recycled newspapers with a =
fungicide and fire retarder.</font></span></div>  <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"316471018-11122008"></span>=CA</div>  <div =
dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"316471018-11122008"></span>=CA</div>  <br>  <div =
class=3D"OutlookMessageHeader" dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left" lang=3D"en-us"> =
 <hr tabindex=3D"-1"><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><b>From:</b> VGBN =
Discussion [<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</a>] =
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Suzy Hodgson<br>  <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December =
11, 2008 1:03 PM<br>  <b>To:</b> <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>  =
<b>Subject:</b> Re: not natural building products?<br>  </font><br>  =
</div> cellulose insulation made with recycled paper is a good green =
option with performance - high R value =CAand low ghg emissions=CA<br>  =
<div>  <div>On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong wrote:</div>  <br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">  <blockquote type=3D"cite">    =
<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0">      <tbody>    =
    <tr>          <td valign=3D"top">          <div>Icynene vs straw is =
a good example of the difficulty in making appropriate choices of =
"green" materials.</div>          <div>=CA</div>          <div>While I =
don't think that spray foams should be used in new construction, =
stuffing straw into existing walls for a retrofit/upgrade is not a =
sensible option and with a limited wall cavity Icynene may be the best =
alternative for renovation. Even for new construction, straw bales - =
with their low R-value per inch (=C51.45, about the same as lumber) may =
not be the best choice.</div>          <div>=CA</div>          =
<div>Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting installation =
by-products, Icynene has only a little more embodied energy per cubic =
foot than fiberglass (not that=CAI would recommend fiberglass for =
anything), typically less installed embodied energy (since framing bays =
are not generally completely filled) and better efficiency payback. =
</div>          <div>=CA</div>          <div>Best use of remaining =
fossil energy and petrochemicals? Not so simple to discern.<br>          =
<br> --- On <b>Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <i>&lt;<a =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&gt;</i></b> =
wrote:<br>          </div>          <blockquote style=3D"border-left: =
2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">       =
     <div id=3D"yiv1294920483">Point taken.=CA I admittedly was thinking =
of products like Icynene vs. straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are =
part of our entire world.<br>            <br> On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, =
Robert Riversong wrote:            <blockquote type=3D"cite">            =
  <table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0">               =
 <tbody>                  <tr>                    <td =
style=3D"font-family: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch: =
inherit;" valign=3D"top">                    <div><font =
color=3D"#0000bf"><font color=3D"#000000">--- On <strong>Wed, 12/10/08, =
Michelle Smith Mullarkey <i><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"nofollow">&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</a></i></strong> =
wrote:</font></font></div>                    <blockquote =
style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; =
margin-left: 5px;">                      <div id=3D"yiv16816363"><font =
color=3D"#0000bf"><strong><font color=3D"#000000">=CAFossil fuel is =
still used to manufacture and transport the majority of green building =
products (not <i>natural </i>building products such as straw bales)... =
</font></strong></font></div>                    </blockquote>           =
         <div><font color=3D"#0000bf"><strong></strong></font>=CA</div>  =
                  <div><font color=3D"#0000bf"><strong>I'm afraid that =
fossil fuels are used for the production of most straw and since some of =
it is coming from Canada, there's also transportation costs. "Natural" =
building materials are not necessarily immune from the environmental =
costs of other materials. </strong></font></div>                    =
</td>                  </tr>                </tbody>              =
</table>            </blockquote>            <br>            </div>      =
    </blockquote>          </td>        </tr>      </tbody>    </table>  =
</blockquote>  </div>  <br> </blockquote> <br>  =
</blockquote></div><br></body></html>=

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:57:00 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Chad Lacasse <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Chad Lacasse <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
Comments: To: Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  A<[log in to unmask]>
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We have done several real world and simulated tests and the application
process has been perfected to reduce settlement to less than a credit
card thickness. The cavities are not closed when the product is
installed, we use an insulweb material to install the product then apply
the exterior sheathing once complete visual inspection is completed.
=20

________________________________

From: VGBN Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert
Riversong
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 2:47 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: not natural building products?


Do you have documentation of cellulose settlement problems during
transport?
=20
The settled density of cellulose is 1.5 - 2.0 pcf. If it is blown into
closed cavities at 3.0 - 3.5 pcf (which would be easier to monitor in a
factory setting than on site), then it cannot possibly settle unless
there was physical degradation of the fiber.=20

--- On Thu, 12/11/08, Tom "Doc" Brudzinski <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


	I do work with a modular manufacturer and have contacts with
others. They have all stayed away from cellulose because of settlement
during transportation. Does your group feel the dense-pack eliminates
the risk of settlement by eliminating the space for settlement to
occur??


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<BODY>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D541035419-11122008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>We have done several real world and simulated =
tests and the=20
application process has been perfected to reduce settlement to less than =
a=20
credit card thickness. The cavities are not closed when the product is=20
installed, we use an insulweb material to install the product then apply =
the=20
exterior sheathing once complete visual inspection is=20
completed.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN =
class=3D541035419-11122008></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> VGBN Discussion=20
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Robert=20
Riversong<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 11, 2008 2:47 =
PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: not natural building=20
products?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
  <TBODY>
  <TR>
    <TD vAlign=3Dtop>
      <DIV>Do you have documentation of cellulose settlement problems =
during=20
      transport?</DIV>
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>The settled density of cellulose is 1.5 - 2.0 pcf. If it is =
blown=20
      into closed cavities at 3.0 - 3.5 pcf (which would be easier to =
monitor in=20
      a factory setting than on site), then it cannot possibly settle =
unless=20
      there was physical degradation of the fiber. <BR><BR>--- On =
<B>Thu,=20
      12/11/08, Tom "Doc" Brudzinski =
<I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B>=20
      wrote:<BR></DIV>
      <BLOCKQUOTE=20
      style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">
        <DIV id=3Dyiv209010452>I do work with a modular manufacturer and =
have=20
        contacts with others. They have all stayed away from cellulose =
because=20
        of settlement during transportation. Does your group feel the =
dense-pack=20
        eliminates the risk of settlement by eliminating the space for=20
        settlement to =
occur??</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></BODY></HTML>

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Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:10:02 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              William C Badger AIA <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         William C Badger AIA <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
Comments: To: Brian McCarthy <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
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Interesting material. Has anyone in the group tried it and does anyone
locally install it? We tried damp applied cellulose in a new house a
couple of years ago with disastrous results. Black mold grew on the
outside of the plywood sheathing and the back side of the Typar house
wrap. The siding had to be stripped off and things dried out. A series
of unusual circumstances that created a perfect storm? Perhaps, but
until it is perfectly clear what to do to guaranty that doesn't happen,
we are staying away from it.<br>
<br>
Bill Badger <br>
<br>
Brian McCarthy wrote:
<blockquote
 cite="mid:[log in to unmask]"
 type="cite">
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; ">
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  <div class="Section1">
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">There are
some &#8220;flowable&#8221; green alternatives
that we know about.š Here&#8217;s an example:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p>š</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><a
 moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.airkrete.com/">www.airkrete.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p>š</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p>š</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p>š</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p>š</o:p></span></font></p>
  <div>
  <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><strong><b><i><font
 color="maroon" face="Lucida Handwriting" size="5"><span
 style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: &quot;Lucida Handwriting&quot;; color: maroon; font-style: italic;">Brian
D.šMcCarthy</span></font></i></b></strong><font color="navy"><span
 style="color: navy;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font
 color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">Marketing + Business Development</span></font><font
 color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><strong><b><font
 color="olive" face="Times New Roman" size="6"><span
 style="font-size: 24pt; color: olive;">The McKernon
Group</span></font></b></strong><font color="navy"><span
 style="color: navy;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font
 color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy;">(888) 484-4200šoffice š (802)
247-8501 faxš š(802) 342-7760 cell</span></font><font color="navy"><span
 style="color: navy;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font
 color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><a
 moz-do-not-send="true" href="BLOCKED::http://www.mckernongroup.com"
 title="http://www.mckernongroup.com/"><font
 title="http://www.mckernongroup.com/" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
 title="http://www.mckernongroup.com/"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;">www.mckernongroup.com</span></span></font></a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  </div>
  <div>
  <div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36pt; text-align: center;"
 align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt;">
  <hr tabindex="-1" align="center" size="2" width="100%"></span></font></div>
  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36pt;"><b><font face="Tahoma"
 size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font
 face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> VGBN
Discussion [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</a>] <b><span
 style="font-weight: bold;">On
Behalf Of </span></b>Suzy Hodgson<br>
  <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday,
December 11, 2008
1:03 PM<br>
  <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
  <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: not
natural building
products?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  </div>
  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36pt;"><font
 face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><o:p>š</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36pt;"><font
 face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">cellulose
insulation made
with recycled paper is a good green option with performance - high R
value
šand low ghg emissionsš<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <div>
  <div>
  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36pt;"><font
 face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">On 11
Dec 2008, at 12:55,
Robert Riversong wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </div>
  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36pt;"><font
 face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
  <br>
  <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <table class="MsoNormalTable" style="width: 432pt; margin-left: 36pt;"
 border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="576">
    <tbody>
      <tr>
        <td style="padding: 0pt;" valign="top">
        <div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt;">Icynene vs straw is a good example of the
difficulty in making appropriate choices of "green" materials.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        </div>
        <div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt;">š<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        </div>
        <div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt;">While I don't think that spray foams should
be used in new construction, stuffing straw into existing walls for a
retrofit/upgrade is not a sensible option and with a limited wall
cavity Icynene may be the best alternative for renovation. Even for new
construction, straw bales - with their low R-value per inch (—1.45,
about the same as lumber) may not be the best choice.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        </div>
        <div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt;">š<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        </div>
        <div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt;">Besides having no global warming or
ozone-depleting installation by-products, Icynene has only a little
more embodied energy per cubic foot than fiberglass (not thatšI would
recommend fiberglass for anything), typically less installed embodied
energy (since framing bays are not generally completely filled) and
better efficiency payback. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        </div>
        <div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt;">š<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        </div>
        <div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt;">Best use of remaining fossil energy and
petrochemicals? Not so simple to discern.<br>
        <br>
--- On <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle
Smith Mullarkey <i><span style="font-style: italic;">&lt;<a
 moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&gt;</span></i></span></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote
 style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(16, 16, 255); border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0pt 0pt 0pt 4pt; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
          <div id="yiv1294920483">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt;">Point taken.š I admittedly was thinking of
products like Icynene vs. straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are
part of our entire world.<br>
          <br>
On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          <table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellpadding="0"
 cellspacing="0">
            <tbody>
              <tr>
                <td
 style="padding: 0pt; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;"
 valign="top">
                <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="black" face="inherit"
 size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: inherit; color: black;">--- On <strong><b><font
 face="inherit"><span style="font-family: inherit;">Wed, 12/10/08,
Michelle Smith Mullarkey <i><span style="font-style: italic;"><a
 moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</a></span></i></span></font></b></strong>
wrote:</span></font><font face="inherit"><span
 style="font-family: inherit;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                </div>
                <blockquote
 style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(16, 16, 255); border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0pt 0pt 0pt 4pt; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
                  <div id="yiv16816363">
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><strong><b><font color="black"
 face="inherit" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: inherit; color: black;">šFossil
fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the majority of green
building products (not <i><span style="font-style: italic;">natural </span></i>building
products such as straw bales)... </span></font></b></strong><font
 face="inherit"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="inherit" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: inherit;">š<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><strong><b><font color="#0000bf"
 face="inherit" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: inherit; color: rgb(0, 0, 191);">I'm
afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production of most straw and
since some of it is coming from <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
 w:st="on">Canada</st1:place></st1:country-region>, there's also
transportation costs. "Natural" building materials are not necessarily
immune from the environmental costs of other materials. </span></font></b></strong><font
 face="inherit"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
                </div>
                </td>
              </tr>
            </tbody>
          </table>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
 style="font-size: 12pt;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        </td>
      </tr>
    </tbody>
  </table>
  </div>
  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 36pt;"><font
 face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><o:p>š</o:p></span></font></p>
  </div>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:42:17 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-version: 1.0
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There=B9s an aircrete installer down south who is swamped.  Check out the web
site.
Bill, sounds like your wet spray installer used too much water.  I have
heard of this happening with inexperienced installers.
This has never happened in many projects I have completed.

Ben=20


On 12/11/08 3:10 PM, "William C Badger AIA"
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Interesting material. Has anyone in the group tried it and does anyone lo=
cally
> install it? We tried damp applied cellulose in a new house a couple of ye=
ars
> ago with disastrous results. Black mold grew on the outside of the plywoo=
d
> sheathing and the back side of the Typar house wrap. The siding had to be
> stripped off and things dried out. A series of unusual circumstances that
> created a perfect storm? Perhaps, but until it is perfectly clear what to=
 do
> to guaranty that doesn't happen, we are staying away from it.
>=20
> Bill Badger=20
>=20
> Brian McCarthy wrote:
>>     =20
>> =20
>>=20
>> There are some =B3flowable=B2 green alternatives that we know about.=A0 Here=B9s=
 an
>> example:
>> =20
>> =A0
>> =20
>> www.airkrete.com <http://www.airkrete.com/>
>> =20
>> =A0
>> =20
>> =A0
>> =20
>> =A0
>> =20
>> =A0
>> =20
>> =20
>> Brian D.=A0McCarthy
>> =20
>> Marketing + Business Development
>> =20
>> The McKernon Group
>> =20
>> (888) 484-4200=A0office =A0 (802) 247-8501 fax=A0 =A0(802) 342-7760 cell
>> =20
>> www.mckernongroup.com <BLOCKED::">">http://www.mckernongroup.com>
>> <http://www.mckernongroup.com>  <http://www.mckernongroup.com>
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: VGBN Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Suzy
>> Hodgson
>>  Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:03 PM
>>  To: [log in to unmask]
>>  Subject: Re: not natural building products?
>> =20
>> =20
>> =A0
>> =20
>> cellulose insulation made with recycled paper is a good green option wit=
h
>> performance - high R value =A0and low ghg emissions=A0
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>>=20
>> On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong wrote:
>> =20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>> =20
>>   =20
>>    Icynene vs straw is a good example of the difficulty in making approp=
riate
>> choices of "green" materials.
>>   =A0=20
>>   While I don't think that spray foams should be used in new constructio=
n,
>> stuffing straw into existing walls for a retrofit/upgrade is not a sensi=
ble
>> option and with a limited wall cavity Icynene may be the best alternativ=
e for
>> renovation. Even for new construction, straw bales - with their low R-va=
lue
>> per inch (=891.45, about the same as lumber) may not be the best choice.
>>   =A0=20
>>   Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting installation
>> by-products, Icynene has only a little more embodied energy per cubic fo=
ot
>> than fiberglass (not that=A0I would recommend fiberglass for anything),
>> typically less installed embodied energy (since framing bays are not
>> generally completely filled) and better efficiency payback.
>>   =A0=20
>>   Best use of remaining fossil energy and petrochemicals? Not so simple =
to
>> discern.
>> =20
>> --- On Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> =20
>>>   Point taken.=A0 I admittedly was thinking of products like Icynene vs.
>>> straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are part of our entire world.
>>> =20
>>> On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote:
>>>    --- On Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]>
>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>> =20
>>>>   =A0Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the majority=
 of
>>>> green building products (not natural building products such as straw
>>>> bales)... =20
>>>> =20
>>>   =A0=20
>>>   I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production of most stra=
w and
>>> since some of it is coming from Canada, there's also transportation cos=
ts.
>>> "Natural" building materials are not necessarily immune from the
>>> environmental costs of other materials.
>>>     =20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>     =20
>> =20
>> =A0
>> =20
>=20


Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
Benjamin Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and Nature
802.454.1167




--B_3311854939_9816014
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	charset="ISO-8859-1"
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: not natural building products?</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'>There=
&#8217;s an aircrete installer down south who is swamped. &nbsp;Check out th=
e web site.<BR>
Bill, sounds like your wet spray installer used too much water. &nbsp;I hav=
e heard of this happening with inexperienced installers.<BR>
This has never happened in many projects I have completed.<BR>
<BR>
Ben <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 12/11/08 3:10 PM, &quot;William C Badger AIA&quot; &lt;wcbadger@BADGERAN=
DASSOCIATES.COM&gt; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYL=
E=3D'font-size:12.0px'>Interesting material. Has anyone in the group tried it =
and does anyone locally install it? We tried damp applied cellulose in a new=
 house a couple of years ago with disastrous results. Black mold grew on the=
 outside of the plywood sheathing and the back side of the Typar house wrap.=
 The siding had to be stripped off and things dried out. A series of unusual=
 circumstances that created a perfect storm? Perhaps, but until it is perfec=
tly clear what to do to guaranty that doesn't happen, we are staying away fr=
om it.<BR>
<BR>
Bill Badger <BR>
<BR>
Brian McCarthy wrote: <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYL=
E=3D'font-size:12.0px'> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN><FONT COLOR=3D"#000080"><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:13.0px'>=
There are some &#8220;flowable&#8221; green alternatives that we know about.=
=A0 Here&#8217;s an example:<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN><FONT COLOR=3D"#000080"><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:13.0px'>=
=A0<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN><FONT COLOR=3D"#000080"><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:13.0px'>=
www.airkrete.com &lt;http://www.airkrete.com/&gt; <BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN><FONT COLOR=3D"#000080"><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:13.0px'>=
=A0<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN><FONT COLOR=3D"#000080"><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:13.0px'>=
=A0<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN><FONT COLOR=3D"#000080"><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:13.0px'>=
=A0<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN><FONT COLOR=3D"#000080"><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:13.0px'>=
=A0<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
&nbsp;
</SPAN></FONT>
<P ALIGN=3DCENTER>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT COLOR=3D"#800000"><FONT SIZE=3D"6"=
><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:24.0px'><B><I>Brian D.=A0McCarthy=20
</I></B></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>
<P>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'>=20
</SPAN></FONT>
<P ALIGN=3DCENTER>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000080"><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:13.0px'>Marketing + Business Development=20
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>
<P>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'>=20
</SPAN></FONT>
<P ALIGN=3DCENTER>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#808000"><FONT SIZE=3D"7"><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:32.0px'><B>The McKernon Group=20
</B></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>
<P>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'>=20
</SPAN></FONT>
<P ALIGN=3DCENTER>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000080"><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:13.0px'>(888) 484-4200=A0office =A0 (802) 247-8501 fax=A0 =A0(802) 342=
-7760 cell=20
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>
<P>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'>=20
</SPAN></FONT>
<P ALIGN=3DCENTER>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT COLOR=3D"#000080"><FONT SIZE=3D"5"=
><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:16.0px'>www.mckernongroup.com</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZ=
E=3D"4"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:13.0px'> &lt;BLOCKED::&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"http:/=
/www.mckernongroup.com>">http://www.mckernongroup.com&gt;</a> <a href=3D"http:=
//www.mckernongroup.com">&lt;http://www.mckernongroup.com&gt;</a> &nbsp;
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>
<P>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;
</SPAN></FONT>
<P ALIGN=3DCENTER>
<FONT SIZE=3D"5"><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:16.0px'>=
 <BR>
<HR ALIGN=3DCENTER SIZE=3D"2" WIDTH=3D"100%"></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Ver=
dana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'>
</SPAN></FONT>
<P>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
<BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:13.0px'><B>From:</B> VGBN Disc=
ussion [<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]]">mailto:[log in to unmask]
]</a> <B>On Behalf Of </B>Suzy Hodgson<BR>
&nbsp;<B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:03 PM<BR>
&nbsp;<B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]<BR>
&nbsp;<B>Subject:</B> Re: not natural building products?<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"5"><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:16.0px'>=A0<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"5"><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:16.0px'>cellulose insulation made with recycled paper is a good green =
option with performance - high R value =A0and low ghg emissions=A0<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0px'> <BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"5"><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:16.0px'>On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong wrote:<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0px'> <BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"5"><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:16.0px'><BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0px'> &nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"5"><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman"=
><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:16.0px'>Icynene vs straw is a good example of the di=
fficulty in making appropriate choices of &quot;green&quot; materials.</SPAN=
></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size=
:12.0px'> <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"5"><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN=
 STYLE=3D'font-size:16.0px'>=A0</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helveti=
ca, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"5"><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN=
 STYLE=3D'font-size:16.0px'>While I don't think that spray foams should be use=
d in new construction, stuffing straw into existing walls for a retrofit/upg=
rade is not a sensible option and with a limited wall cavity Icynene may be =
the best alternative for renovation. Even for new construction, straw bales =
- with their low R-value per inch (&#8776;1.45, about the same as lumber) ma=
y not be the best choice.</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica=
, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"5"><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN=
 STYLE=3D'font-size:16.0px'>=A0</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helveti=
ca, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"5"><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN=
 STYLE=3D'font-size:16.0px'>Besides having no global warming or ozone-depletin=
g installation by-products, Icynene has only a little more embodied energy p=
er cubic foot than fiberglass (not that=A0I would recommend fiberglass for any=
thing), typically less installed embodied energy (since framing bays are not=
 generally completely filled) and better efficiency payback. </SPAN></FONT><=
/FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'>=
 <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"5"><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN=
 STYLE=3D'font-size:16.0px'>=A0</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helveti=
ca, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"5"><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN=
 STYLE=3D'font-size:16.0px'>Best use of remaining fossil energy and petrochemi=
cals? Not so simple to discern.<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
--- On <B>Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt=
;</I></B> wrote:</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">=
<SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYL=
E=3D'font-size:12.0px'> &nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"5"><FONT FACE=3D"Times N=
ew Roman"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:16.0px'>Point taken.=A0 I admittedly was thin=
king of products like Icynene vs. straw, but it seems fossil fuels really ar=
e part of our entire world.<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote: </SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT F=
ACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> &nbsp;&nbsp;=
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><FONT SIZE=3D"5"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:16.0px'>--- =
On <B>Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">&lt;mailto:[log in to unmask]&gt;</a> </I></B>wro=
te:</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYL=
E=3D'font-size:12.0px'> &nbsp;</SPAN><FONT SIZE=3D"5"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:16.=
0px'><B>=A0Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the majority=
 of green building products (not <I>natural </I>building products such as st=
raw bales)... </B></SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> &nbsp;</SPAN><FONT SIZE=3D"5"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:16=
.0px'>=A0</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000BF"><FONT SIZE=3D"5"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-s=
ize:16.0px'><B>I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production of m=
ost straw and since some of it is coming from Canada, there's also transport=
ation costs. &quot;Natural&quot; building materials are not necessarily immu=
ne from the environmental costs of other materials. </B></SPAN></FONT></FONT=
><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"5"><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font=
-size:16.0px'>=A0<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0px'> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><FONT FACE=3D"Hoefler Text, Times New Roman"><SP=
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<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><SPAN =
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Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Light"><B>Integrating Culture and Na=
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Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:42:44 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
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Robert,
The air crete uses magnesium oxide based cement which uses 20-30% of
portland=B9s.  But production scale is smaller and there is still mining to
get it.

Ben


On 12/11/08 2:46 PM, "Robert Riversong" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Do you have documentation of cellulose settlement problems during transpo=
rt?
> =20
> The settled density of cellulose is 1.5 - 2.0 pcf. If it is blown into cl=
osed
> cavities at 3.0 - 3.5 pcf (which would be easier to monitor in a factory
> setting than on site), then it cannot possibly settle unless there was
> physical degradation of the fiber.
>=20
> --- On Thu, 12/11/08, Tom "Doc" Brudzinski <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> I do work with a modular manufacturer and have contacts with others. The=
y
>> have all stayed away from cellulose because of settlement during
>> transportation. Does your group feel the dense-pack eliminates the risk =
of
>> settlement by eliminating the space for settlement to occur??
>=20


Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
Benjamin Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and Nature
802.454.1167




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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: not natural building products?</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'>Rober=
t,<BR>
The air crete uses magnesium oxide based cement which uses 20-30% of portla=
nd&#8217;s. &nbsp;But production scale is smaller and there is still mining =
to get it.<BR>
<BR>
Ben<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 12/11/08 2:46 PM, &quot;Robert Riversong&quot; &lt;housewright@PONDS-EDG=
E.NET&gt; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYL=
E=3D'font-size:12.0px'>Do you have documentation of cellulose settlement probl=
ems during transport?<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
The settled density of cellulose is 1.5 - 2.0 pcf. If it is blown into clos=
ed cavities at 3.0 - 3.5 pcf (which would be easier to monitor in a factory =
setting than on site), then it cannot possibly settle unless there was physi=
cal degradation of the fiber. <BR>
<BR>
--- On <B>Thu, 12/11/08, Tom &quot;Doc&quot; Brudzinski <I>&lt;doc@TOME-PLA=
CE.COM&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYL=
E=3D'font-size:12.0px'>I do work with a modular manufacturer and have contacts=
 with others. They have all stayed away from cellulose because of settlement=
 during transportation. Does your group feel the dense-pack eliminates the r=
isk of settlement by eliminating the space for settlement to occur??<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><FONT FACE=3D"Hoefler Text, Times New Roman"><SP=
AN STYLE=3D'font-size:14.0px'><I>Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve=
 neither.<BR>
</I>Benjamin Franklin<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0px'>__________________________________________________________<B=
R>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><SPAN =
STYLE=3D'font-size:14.0px'>Ben Graham<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:14.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Hoefler Text, Time=
s New Roman">www.<B>naturaldesignbuild</B>.us <BR>
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Light"><B>Integrating Culture and Na=
ture</B></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Hoefler Text, Times New Roman">802.454.1167<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0px'><BR>
<BR>
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--B_3311854965_9784793--
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Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:48:50 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Suzy Hodgson <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Suzy Hodgson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
Comments: To: Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
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The borates added to the cellulose should be a mold retardant as well =20=

as fire retardant.  Maybe they were not added in sufficient quantities.
On 11 Dec 2008, at 15:42, Ben Graham wrote:

> There=D5s an aircrete installer down south who is swamped.  Check out =20=

> the web site.
> Bill, sounds like your wet spray installer used too much water.  I =20
> have heard of this happening with inexperienced installers.
> This has never happened in many projects I have completed.
>
> Ben
>
>
> On 12/11/08 3:10 PM, "William C Badger AIA" =20
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Interesting material. Has anyone in the group tried it and does =20
>> anyone locally install it? We tried damp applied cellulose in a =20
>> new house a couple of years ago with disastrous results. Black =20
>> mold grew on the outside of the plywood sheathing and the back =20
>> side of the Typar house wrap. The siding had to be stripped off =20
>> and things dried out. A series of unusual circumstances that =20
>> created a perfect storm? Perhaps, but until it is perfectly clear =20
>> what to do to guaranty that doesn't happen, we are staying away =20
>> from it.
>>
>> Bill Badger
>>
>> Brian McCarthy wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There are some =D2flowable=D3 green alternatives that we know about. =
 =20
>>> Here=D5s an example:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> www.airkrete.com <http://www.airkrete.com/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian D. McCarthy
>>>
>>> Marketing + Business Development
>>>
>>> The McKernon Group
>>>
>>> (888) 484-4200 office   (802) 247-8501 fax   (802) 342-7760 cell
>>>
>>> www.mckernongroup.com <BLOCKED::">http://www.mckernongroup.com> =20
>>> <http://www.mckernongroup.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: VGBN Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of =20=

>>> Suzy Hodgson
>>>  Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:03 PM
>>>  To: [log in to unmask]
>>>  Subject: Re: not natural building products?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> cellulose insulation made with recycled paper is a good green =20
>>> option with performance - high R value  and low ghg emissions
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    Icynene vs straw is a good example of the difficulty in making =20=

>>> appropriate choices of "green" materials.
>>>
>>>   While I don't think that spray foams should be used in new =20
>>> construction, stuffing straw into existing walls for a retrofit/=20
>>> upgrade is not a sensible option and with a limited wall cavity =20
>>> Icynene may be the best alternative for renovation. Even for new =20
>>> construction, straw bales - with their low R-value per inch =20
>>> (=C51.45, about the same as lumber) may not be the best choice.
>>>
>>>   Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting =20
>>> installation by-products, Icynene has only a little more embodied =20=

>>> energy per cubic foot than fiberglass (not that I would recommend =20=

>>> fiberglass for anything), typically less installed embodied =20
>>> energy (since framing bays are not generally completely filled) =20
>>> and better efficiency payback.
>>>
>>>   Best use of remaining fossil energy and petrochemicals? Not so =20
>>> simple to discern.
>>>
>>> --- On Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]> =20
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>  Point taken.  I admittedly was thinking of products like =20
>>>> Icynene vs. straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are part of =20
>>>> our entire world.
>>>>
>>>> On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote:
>>>>    --- On Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey =20
>>>> <[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>   Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the =20
>>>>> majority of green building products (not natural building =20
>>>>> products such as straw bales)...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production of =20
>>>> most straw and since some of it is coming from Canada, there's =20
>>>> also transportation costs. "Natural" building materials are not =20
>>>> necessarily immune from the environmental costs of other materials.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
> Benjamin Franklin
> __________________________________________________________
>
> Ben Graham
> www.naturaldesignbuild.us
> Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting
>
> Integrating Culture and Nature
> 802.454.1167
>
>


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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
The borates added to the cellulose should be a mold retardant as well as =
fire retardant. =CAMaybe they were not added in sufficient =
quantities.<br><div><div>On 11 Dec 2008, at 15:42, Ben Graham =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> <font face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span =
style=3D"font-size:12.0px">There=D5s an aircrete installer down south =
who is swamped. =CACheck out the web site.<br> Bill, sounds like your =
wet spray installer used too much water. =CAI have heard of this =
happening with inexperienced installers.<br> This has never happened in =
many projects I have completed.<br> <br> Ben <br> <br> <br> On 12/11/08 =
3:10 PM, "William C Badger AIA" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">wcbadger@BADGERANDASSOCIA=
TES.COM</a>&gt; wrote:<br> <br> </span></font><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><font face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span =
style=3D"font-size:12.0px">Interesting material. Has anyone in the group =
tried it and does anyone locally install it? We tried damp applied =
cellulose in a new house a couple of years ago with disastrous results. =
Black mold grew on the outside of the plywood sheathing and the back =
side of the Typar house wrap. The siding had to be stripped off and =
things dried out. A series of unusual circumstances that created a =
perfect storm? Perhaps, but until it is perfectly clear what to do to =
guaranty that doesn't happen, we are staying away from it.<br> <br> Bill =
Badger <br> <br> Brian McCarthy wrote: <br> </span></font><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><font face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span =
style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> =CA=CA=CA=CA<br> =CA<br> <br> </span><font =
color=3D"#000080"><font size=3D"4"><span style=3D"font-size:13.0px">There =
are some =D2flowable=D3 green alternatives that we know about.=CA Here=D5s=
 an example:<br> </span></font></font><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> =
<br> </span><font color=3D"#000080"><font size=3D"4"><span =
style=3D"font-size:13.0px">=CA<br> </span></font></font><span =
style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> <br> </span><font color=3D"#000080"><font =
size=3D"4"><span style=3D"font-size:13.0px">www.airkrete.com &lt;<a =
href=3D"http://www.airkrete.com/">http://www.airkrete.com/</a>&gt; <br> =
</span></font></font><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> <br> </span><font =
color=3D"#000080"><font size=3D"4"><span style=3D"font-size:13.0px">=CA<br=
> </span></font></font><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> <br> =
</span><font color=3D"#000080"><font size=3D"4"><span =
style=3D"font-size:13.0px">=CA<br> </span></font></font><span =
style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> <br> </span><font color=3D"#000080"><font =
size=3D"4"><span style=3D"font-size:13.0px">=CA<br> =
</span></font></font><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> <br> </span><font =
color=3D"#000080"><font size=3D"4"><span style=3D"font-size:13.0px">=CA<br=
> </span></font></font><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> <br> =CA =
</span></font><div align=3D"CENTER"> <font face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, =
Arial"><font color=3D"#800000"><font size=3D"6"><span =
style=3D"font-size:24.0px"><b><i>Brian D.=CAMcCarthy =
</i></b></span></font></font></font> </div><div> <font face=3D"Verdana, =
Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> </span></font> <br =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div align=3D"CENTER"> <font =
color=3D"#000080"><font size=3D"4"><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D"font-size:13.0px">Marketing + Business Development =
</span></font></font></font> </div><div> <font face=3D"Verdana, =
Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> </span></font> <br =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div align=3D"CENTER"> <font =
color=3D"#808000"><font size=3D"7"><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D"font-size:32.0px"><b>The McKernon Group =
</b></span></font></font></font> </div><div> <font face=3D"Verdana, =
Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> </span></font> <br =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div align=3D"CENTER"> <font =
color=3D"#000080"><font size=3D"4"><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D"font-size:13.0px">(888) 484-4200=CAoffice =CA (802) 247-8501 =
fax=CA =CA(802) 342-7760 cell </span></font></font></font> </div><div> =
<font face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px">=
 </span></font> <br class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div =
align=3D"CENTER"> <font face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><font =
color=3D"#000080"><font size=3D"5"><span =
style=3D"font-size:16.0px">www.mckernongroup.com</span></font><font =
size=3D"4"><span style=3D"font-size:13.0px"> &lt;BLOCKED::"&gt;<a =
href=3D"http://www.mckernongroup.com&gt;">http://www.mckernongroup.com&gt;=
</a> <a =
href=3D"http://www.mckernongroup.com">&lt;http://www.mckernongroup.com&gt;=
</a> =CA </span></font></font></font> </div><div> <font face=3D"Verdana, =
Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> <br> =CA<br> =CA =
</span></font> </div><div align=3D"CENTER"> <font size=3D"5"><font =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:16.0px"> <br> <hr =
align=3D"CENTER" size=3D"2" width=3D"100%"></span></font></font><font =
face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> =
</span></font> </div><div> <font face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, =
Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> <br> <br> </span><font =
size=3D"4"><span style=3D"font-size:13.0px"><b>From:</b> VGBN Discussion =
[<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]]">mailto:[log in to unmask]]</a> =
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Suzy Hodgson<br> =CA<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December =
11, 2008 1:03 PM<br> =CA<b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br> =
=CA<b>Subject:</b> Re: not natural building products?<br> =
</span></font><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> <br> =CA<br> =
</span></font><font size=3D"5"><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D"font-size:16.0px">=CA<br> </span></font></font><font =
face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> =
<br> </span></font><font size=3D"5"><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D"font-size:16.0px">cellulose insulation made with recycled paper =
is a good green option with performance - high R value =CAand low ghg =
emissions=CA<br> </span></font></font><font face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, =
Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> <br> =CA<br> =CA<br> <br> =
</span></font><font size=3D"5"><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D"font-size:16.0px">On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong =
wrote:<br> </span></font></font><font face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, =
Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> <br> =CA<br> =
</span></font><font size=3D"5"><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D"font-size:16.0px"><br> =CA<br> =CA<br> =
</span></font></font><font face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span =
style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> =CA=CA<br> =CA=CA=CA</span></font><font =
size=3D"5"><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D"font-size:16.0px">Icynene vs straw is a good example of the =
difficulty in making appropriate choices of "green" =
materials.</span></font></font><font face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, =
Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> <br> =CA=CA</span></font><font =
size=3D"5"><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D"font-size:16.0px">=CA</span></font></font><font face=3D"Verdana, =
Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> <br> =
=CA=CA</span></font><font size=3D"5"><font face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:16.0px">While I don't think that spray =
foams should be used in new construction, stuffing straw into existing =
walls for a retrofit/upgrade is not a sensible option and with a limited =
wall cavity Icynene may be the best alternative for renovation. Even for =
new construction, straw bales - with their low R-value per inch (=C51.45, =
about the same as lumber) may not be the best =
choice.</span></font></font><font face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, =
Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> <br> =CA=CA</span></font><font =
size=3D"5"><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D"font-size:16.0px">=CA</span></font></font><font face=3D"Verdana, =
Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> <br> =
=CA=CA</span></font><font size=3D"5"><font face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:16.0px">Besides having no global warming =
or ozone-depleting installation by-products, Icynene has only a little =
more embodied energy per cubic foot than fiberglass (not that=CAI would =
recommend fiberglass for anything), typically less installed embodied =
energy (since framing bays are not generally completely filled) and =
better efficiency payback. </span></font></font><font face=3D"Verdana, =
Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> <br> =
=CA=CA</span></font><font size=3D"5"><font face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:16.0px">=CA</span></font></font><font =
face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> =
<br> =CA=CA</span></font><font size=3D"5"><font face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:16.0px">Best use of remaining fossil =
energy and petrochemicals? Not so simple to discern.<br> =CA<br> --- On =
<b>Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <i>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&gt;</i></b> =
wrote:</span></font></font><font face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, =
Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> <br> =CA<br> =
</span></font></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><font face=3D"Verdana, =
Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> =CA</span></font><font=
 size=3D"5"><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D"font-size:16.0px">Point taken.=CA I admittedly was thinking of =
products like Icynene vs. straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are =
part of our entire world.<br> =CA<br> On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert =
Riversong wrote: </span></font></font><font face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, =
Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> =CA=CA<br> =CA=CA=CA</span><font =
size=3D"5"><span style=3D"font-size:16.0px">--- On <b>Wed, 12/10/08, =
Michelle Smith Mullarkey <i>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&gt; <a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">&lt;mailto:[log in to unmask]&gt;</a> =
</i></b>wrote:</span></font><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> <br> =CA<br>=
 </span></font><blockquote type=3D"cite"><font face=3D"Verdana, =
Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> =CA</span><font =
size=3D"5"><span style=3D"font-size:16.0px"><b>=CAFossil fuel is still =
used to manufacture and transport the majority of green building =
products (not <i>natural </i>building products such as straw bales)... =
</b></span></font><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> <br> =CA<br> =
</span></font></blockquote><font face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, =
Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> =CA</span><font size=3D"5"><span =
style=3D"font-size:16.0px">=CA</span></font><span =
style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> <br> =CA=CA</span><font =
color=3D"#0000BF"><font size=3D"5"><span style=3D"font-size:16.0px"><b>I'm=
 afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production of most straw and =
since some of it is coming from Canada, there's also transportation =
costs. "Natural" building materials are not necessarily immune from the =
environmental costs of other materials. </b></span></font></font><span =
style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> <br> =CA=CA=CA=CA=CA<br> =CA<br> =CA<br> =
</span></font></blockquote><font face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, =
Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> =CA=CA=CA=CA<br> =CA<br> =
</span></font><font size=3D"5"><font face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D"font-size:16.0px">=CA<br> </span></font></font><font =
face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"> =
<br> </span></font></blockquote><font face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, =
Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"><br> =
</span></font></blockquote><font face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, =
Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"><br> <br> </span></font><font =
size=3D"4"><font face=3D"Hoefler Text, Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D"font-size:14.0px"><i>Those who give up freedom for safety, =
deserve neither.<br> </i>Benjamin Franklin<br> =
</span></font></font><font face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span =
style=3D"font-size:12.0px">_______________________________________________=
___________<br> <br> </span></font><font size=3D"4"><font face=3D"Humana =
Serif ITC TT-Medium"><span style=3D"font-size:14.0px">Ben Graham<br> =
</span></font><span style=3D"font-size:14.0px"><font face=3D"Hoefler =
Text, Times New Roman">www.<b>naturaldesignbuild</b>.us <br> Natural =
building/design services/workshops/consulting<br> </font><font =
face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><br> </font><font face=3D"Humana =
Serif ITC TT-Light"><b>Integrating Culture and Nature</b></font><font =
face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"> <br> </font><font face=3D"Hoefler =
Text, Times New Roman">802.454.1167<br> </font></span></font><font =
face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0px"><br> =
<br> </span></font>   </blockquote></div><br></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-5--534256483--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:04:09 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Jeff Gephart <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Jeff Gephart <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
Comments: To: William C Badger AIA <[log in to unmask]>
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Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
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Bill,

I assume you are referring to the air krete.  I spoke with Ecosafe =
Insulation in Northfield (485-9119) about air krete for an article I =
wrote for Efficiency Vermont's Spring/Summer 2003 Builder Newsletter.  I =
have no first-hand experience with it.  What we published at the time =
was:

Cementitious Foam
Quoting the manufacturer's literature, "air kretea is an ultra-light =
insulating foam consisting of a patented combination of an inorganic =
cementitious stabilizer, a microscopic cell generator, a catalyst, and =
compressed air."


Application in walls is performed by spraying air krete through a =
retention fabric of aluminum screening or other sufficiently porous =
material rigid enough to prevent deformation and to allow curing. In =
ceilings, it can be applied through screening for sloped applications or =
from above in ceiling flats. Installation requires that the temperature =
at the point of application is at least 40=9C F or higher during =
application and for a 48 hour initial curing period. The manufacturer =
touts it as fireproof and supplies the appropriate supporting test =
evidence.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------

We listed it as having an R-value range of 3.9 per inch at a density of =
2.07 PCF, as an air barrier and vapor permeable.  Applications it could =
serve included: wall cavities and rim-band, vaullted or flat ceilings =
and for strengths we listed: Blocks air movement, zero flame =
spread/smoke development - non-ozone depleting.

Kind regards,
Jeff Gephart

Vermont ENERGY STAR Homes
  A service of Efficiency Vermont & Vermont Gas Systems

LEED for Homes
  A U.S. Green Building Council program

800-893-1997
802-767-3861 fax
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: William C Badger AIA=20
  To: [log in to unmask]
  Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 3:10 PM
  Subject: Re: [VGBNTALK] not natural building products?


  Interesting material. Has anyone in the group tried it and does anyone =
locally install it? We tried damp applied cellulose in a new house a =
couple of years ago with disastrous results. Black mold grew on the =
outside of the plywood sheathing and the back side of the Typar house =
wrap. The siding had to be stripped off and things dried out. A series =
of unusual circumstances that created a perfect storm? Perhaps, but =
until it is perfectly clear what to do to guaranty that doesn't happen, =
we are staying away from it.

  Bill Badger=20

  Brian McCarthy wrote:=20
    There are some "flowable" green alternatives that we know about.  =
Here's an example:



    www.airkrete.com









    Brian D. McCarthy

    Marketing + Business Development

    The McKernon Group

    (888) 484-4200 office   (802) 247-8501 fax   (802) 342-7760 cell

    www.mckernongroup.com


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---

    From: VGBN Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of =
Suzy Hodgson
    Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:03 PM
    To: [log in to unmask]
    Subject: Re: not natural building products?



    cellulose insulation made with recycled paper is a good green option =
with performance - high R value  and low ghg emissions=20

    On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong wrote:





          Icynene vs straw is a good example of the difficulty in making =
appropriate choices of "green" materials.



          While I don't think that spray foams should be used in new =
construction, stuffing straw into existing walls for a retrofit/upgrade =
is not a sensible option and with a limited wall cavity Icynene may be =
the best alternative for renovation. Even for new construction, straw =
bales - with their low R-value per inch (=971.45, about the same as =
lumber) may not be the best choice.



          Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting =
installation by-products, Icynene has only a little more embodied energy =
per cubic foot than fiberglass (not that I would recommend fiberglass =
for anything), typically less installed embodied energy (since framing =
bays are not generally completely filled) and better efficiency payback. =




          Best use of remaining fossil energy and petrochemicals? Not so =
simple to discern.

          --- On Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey =
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

            Point taken.  I admittedly was thinking of products like =
Icynene vs. straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are part of our =
entire world.

            On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote:=20

                  --- On Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey =
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

                     Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and =
transport the majority of green building products (not natural building =
products such as straw bales)...=20



                  I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the =
production of most straw and since some of it is coming from Canada, =
there's also transportation costs. "Natural" building materials are not =
necessarily immune from the environmental costs of other materials.=20
                =20

        =20



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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bill,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I assume you are referring to the air =
krete.&nbsp;=20
I&nbsp;spoke with Ecosafe Insulation in Northfield (485-9119)&nbsp;about =
air=20
krete&nbsp;for an article I wrote for Efficiency Vermont's Spring/Summer =
2003=20
Builder Newsletter.&nbsp; I have no first-hand experience with it.&nbsp; =
What we=20
published at the time was:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN lang=3DEN><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN lang=3DEN>Cementitious Foam</DIV>
<DIV>
<P dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>Quoting the manufacturer&#8217;s literature, =
"air krete<FONT=20
face=3DSymbol>&acirc;</FONT> is an ultra-light insulating foam =
consisting of a patented=20
combination of an inorganic cementitious stabilizer, a microscopic cell=20
generator, a catalyst, and compressed air."</P>
<P dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft></P>
<P dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>Application in walls is performed by spraying =
air krete=20
through a retention fabric of aluminum screening or other sufficiently =
porous=20
material rigid enough to prevent deformation and to allow curing. In =
ceilings,=20
it can be applied through screening for sloped applications or from =
above in=20
ceiling flats. Installation requires that the temperature at the point =
of=20
application is at least 40<FONT face=3DSymbol>=9C</FONT> F or higher =
during=20
application and for a 48 hour initial curing period. The manufacturer =
touts it=20
as fireproof and supplies the appropriate supporting test=20
evidence.</P></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>----------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We listed it as having an R-value range =
of 3.9 per=20
inch at a density of 2.07&nbsp;PCF, as an air barrier&nbsp;and vapor=20
permeable.&nbsp; Applications it could serve included: wall =
cavities&nbsp;and=20
rim-band, vaullted or flat&nbsp;ceilings and for strengths we listed: =
Blocks air=20
movement, zero flame spread/smoke development - non-ozone=20
depleting.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kind regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jeff Gephart</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Vermont ENERGY STAR Homes<BR>&nbsp; A service of Efficiency Vermont =
&amp;=20
Vermont Gas Systems</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>LEED for Homes<BR>&nbsp; A U.S. Green Building Council =
program</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>800-893-1997<BR>802-767-3861 fax</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A [log in to unmask]
  href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">William C Badger =
AIA</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
  href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 11, =
2008 3:10=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [VGBNTALK] not =
natural=20
  building products?</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Interesting material. Has anyone in the group tried it =
and does=20
  anyone locally install it? We tried damp applied cellulose in a new =
house a=20
  couple of years ago with disastrous results. Black mold grew on the =
outside of=20
  the plywood sheathing and the back side of the Typar house wrap. The =
siding=20
  had to be stripped off and things dried out. A series of unusual =
circumstances=20
  that created a perfect storm? Perhaps, but until it is perfectly clear =
what to=20
  do to guaranty that doesn't happen, we are staying away from =
it.<BR><BR>Bill=20
  Badger <BR><BR>Brian McCarthy wrote:=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  =
cite=3Dmid:[log in to unmask] =

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    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">There are =
some=20
    &#8220;flowable&#8221; green alternatives that we know about.&nbsp; =
Here&#8217;s an=20
    example:<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
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    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><A=20
    href=3D"http://www.airkrete.com/"=20
    =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">www.airkrete.com</A><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P=
>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
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    size=3D5><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 18pt; COLOR: maroon; FONT-STYLE: italic; =
FONT-FAMILY: 'Lucida Handwriting'">Brian=20
    D.&nbsp;McCarthy</SPAN></FONT></I></B></STRONG><FONT =
color=3Dnavy><SPAN=20
    style=3D"COLOR: navy"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" =
align=3Dcenter><FONT=20
    face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">Marketing + Business=20
    Development</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3Dnavy><SPAN=20
    style=3D"COLOR: navy"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" =
align=3Dcenter><STRONG><B><FONT=20
    face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dolive size=3D6><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: olive">The McKernon=20
    Group</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT color=3Dnavy><SPAN=20
    style=3D"COLOR: navy"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" =
align=3Dcenter><FONT=20
    face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">(888) 484-4200&nbsp;office =
&nbsp; (802)=20
    247-8501 fax&nbsp; &nbsp;(802) 342-7760 cell</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
    color=3Dnavy><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: =
navy"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
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align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3DArial=20
    color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><A=20
    title=3Dhttp://www.mckernongroup.com/=20
    href=3D"BLOCKED::http://www.mckernongroup.com" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true"><FONT=20
    title=3Dhttp://www.mckernongroup.com/ face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
    title=3Dhttp://www.mckernongroup.com/><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman'">www.mckernongroup.com</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></A></SPAN></FONT><O:P>=
</O:P></P></DIV>
    <DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt; TEXT-ALIGN: =
center"=20
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    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
    <HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2>
    </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><B><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
    size=3D2><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT=20
    face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Tahoma"> VGBN=20
    Discussion [<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>]=20
    <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Suzy=20
    Hodgson<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> =
Thursday,=20
    December 11, 2008 1:03 PM<BR><B><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <A =
class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR><B><SP=
AN=20
    style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: not natural =
building=20
    products?</SPAN></FONT><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
    size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
    size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">cellulose insulation made =
with recycled=20
    paper is a good green option with performance - high R value =
&nbsp;and low=20
    ghg emissions&nbsp;<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <DIV>
    <DIV>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
    size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, =
Robert=20
    Riversong wrote:<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
    size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><BR><BR><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
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          <DIV>
          <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
          style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Icynene vs straw is a good example =
of the=20
          difficulty in making appropriate choices of "green"=20
          materials.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
          <DIV>
          <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
          style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
          <DIV>
          <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
          style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">While I don't think that spray foams =
should be=20
          used in new construction, stuffing straw into existing walls =
for a=20
          retrofit/upgrade is not a sensible option and with a limited =
wall=20
          cavity Icynene may be the best alternative for renovation. =
Even for=20
          new construction, straw bales - with their low R-value per =
inch=20
          (=971.45, about the same as lumber) may not be the best=20
          choice.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
          <DIV>
          <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
          style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
          <DIV>
          <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
          style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Besides having no global warming or=20
          ozone-depleting installation by-products, Icynene has only a =
little=20
          more embodied energy per cubic foot than fiberglass (not =
that&nbsp;I=20
          would recommend fiberglass for anything), typically less =
installed=20
          embodied energy (since framing bays are not generally =
completely=20
          filled) and better efficiency payback.=20
          <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
          <DIV>
          <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
          style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
          <DIV>
          <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
          style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Best use of remaining fossil energy =
and=20
          petrochemicals? Not so simple to discern.<BR><BR>--- On =
<B><SPAN=20
          style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith =
Mullarkey=20
          <I><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">&lt;<A=20
          href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
          =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">[log in to unmask]</A>&gt;</SPAN></I></SPAN></B>=20
          wrote:<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
          <BLOCKQUOTE=20
          style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0pt; =
BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; =
MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; =
BORDER-LEFT: 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
            <DIV id=3Dyiv1294920483>
            <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
            style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Point taken.&nbsp; I admittedly =
was thinking=20
            of products like Icynene vs. straw, but it seems fossil =
fuels really=20
            are part of our entire world.<BR><BR>On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, =
Robert=20
            Riversong wrote: <O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
            <TABLE class=3DMsoNormalTable cellSpacing=3D0 =
cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
              <TBODY>
              <TR>
                <TD=20
                style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0pt; =
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0pt; PADDING-TOP: 0pt; font-size-adjust: inherit; =
font-stretch: inherit"=20
                vAlign=3Dtop>
                  <DIV>
                  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3Dinherit =
color=3Dblack size=3D3><SPAN=20
                  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
inherit">---=20
                  On <STRONG><B><FONT face=3Dinherit><SPAN=20
                  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: inherit">Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle =
Smith=20
                  Mullarkey <I><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic"><A=20
                  href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D_blank=20
                  =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</A></SPAN></I></SPAN></F=
ONT></B></STRONG>=20
                  wrote:</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3Dinherit><SPAN=20
                  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: =
inherit"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
                  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
                  style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: =
0pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; =
MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; =
BORDER-LEFT: 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
                    <DIV id=3Dyiv16816363>
                    <P class=3DMsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=3Dinherit =
color=3Dblack=20
                    size=3D3><SPAN=20
                    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
inherit">&nbsp;Fossil=20
                    fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the =
majority=20
                    of green building products (not <I><SPAN=20
                    style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">natural =
</SPAN></I>building=20
                    products such as straw bales)...=20
                    </SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT =
face=3Dinherit><SPAN=20
                    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: =
inherit"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
                  <DIV>
                  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3Dinherit =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
                  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
inherit"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
                  <DIV>
                  <P class=3DMsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face=3Dinherit =
color=3D#0000bf=20
                  size=3D3><SPAN=20
                  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: rgb(0,0,191); =
FONT-FAMILY: inherit">I'm=20
                  afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production =
of most=20
                  straw and since some of it is coming from =
<ST1:COUNTRY-REGION=20
                  w:st=3D"on"><ST1:PLACE=20
                  w:st=3D"on">Canada</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGION>, =
there's=20
                  also transportation costs. "Natural" building =
materials are=20
                  not necessarily immune from the environmental costs of =
other=20
                  materials. </SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT =
face=3Dinherit><SPAN=20
                  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: =
inherit"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
            <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
            style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY><=
/TABLE></DIV>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
    size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY=
></HTML>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:16:57 -0800
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: carbon footprint
Comments: To: Suzy Hodgson <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Building materials don't have "embodied" carbon (other than the captured ca=
rbon of cellulosic materials), but rather a carbon (or global warming) foot=
print caused by the release into the atmosphere of CO2 and other heat-trapp=
ing gasses during manufacture and transport.
=A0
In general, the more local and natural and recycled the product, the smalle=
r the carbon footprint. The carbon footprint often closely parallels the em=
bodied energy, since most of that energy is petrochemical or coal. Petroche=
mical foams and cementitious materials have the highest carbon footprints, =
but those are somewhat offset by the life-cycle reduction in consumption of=
 fossil fuels by increased thermal efficiency and by the long-term potentia=
l durability of cementitious materials.

--- On Thu, 12/11/08, Suzy Hodgson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


Are there any externally published factors for the embodied carbon of diffe=
rent insulation materials?

=A0
--0-210647490-1229030217=:45060
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>Building materials don't have "embodied" carbon (other than the captured carbon of cellulosic materials), but rather a carbon (or global warming) footprint caused by the release into the atmosphere of CO2 and other heat-trapping gasses during manufacture and transport.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In general, the more local and natural and recycled the product, the smaller the carbon footprint. The carbon footprint often closely parallels the embodied energy, since most of that energy is petrochemical or coal. Petrochemical foams and cementitious materials have the highest carbon footprints, but those are somewhat offset by the life-cycle reduction in consumption of fossil fuels by increased thermal efficiency and by the long-term potential durability of cementitious materials.<BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 12/11/08, Suzy Hodgson <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">
<DIV id=yiv908301791>Are there any externally published factors for the embodied carbon of different insulation materials?<BR>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table>
--0-210647490-1229030217=:45060--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:36:43 -0800
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: damp cellulose
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-560530797-1229031403=:81338"

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--- On Thu, 12/11/08, William C Badger AIA <[log in to unmask]
M> wrote:

Interesting material. Has anyone in the group tried it and does anyone loca=
lly install it? We tried damp applied cellulose in a new house a couple of =
years ago with disastrous results. Black mold grew on the outside of the pl=
ywood sheathing and the back side of the Typar house wrap. The siding had t=
o be stripped off and things dried out. A series of unusual circumstances t=
hat created a perfect storm?=20
=A0
The mold on your plywood sheathing may have been encouraged by poor install=
ation practice or too quick=A0a close-in of the walls, but likely had other=
 contributing factors.
=A0
Kiln-dried lumber is milled at 19% moisture content by weight and it takes =
a new house a full year to completely dry to a stable level. Modern cellulo=
se installation techniques require very little added water, and the walls s=
hould always be left open from 1 to 3 days following application.
=A0
Running salamander-type temporary construction heaters only puts more moist=
ure into the indoor environment. Cellulose has been successfully installed =
in northern climates without a vapor barrier (as long as there is good air =
sealing), and applying a plastic vapor barrier and closing in the wall befo=
re dry-out will almost certainly create a mold problem.
=A0
The brand of cellulose, also, makes a big difference. Only those, like Nati=
onal Fiber, who use EPA-certified fungicides can guarantee no mold problems=
.
=A0
If wall plate penetrations in the top and bottom plates are not properly se=
aled, this could create a significant source of moisture in the wall caviti=
es.
=A0
My guess is that you had a "perfect storm" caused perhaps by poor quality m=
aterials, poor installation technique, and inappropriate construction pract=
ices. Don't blame the cellulose - there is no better insulation on the mark=
et.
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<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>--- On <B>Thu, 12/11/08, William C Badger AIA <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">
<DIV id=yiv324500810>Interesting material. Has anyone in the group tried it and does anyone locally install it? We tried damp applied cellulose in a new house a couple of years ago with disastrous results. Black mold grew on the outside of the plywood sheathing and the back side of the Typar house wrap. The siding had to be stripped off and things dried out. A series of unusual circumstances that created a perfect storm? </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The mold on your plywood sheathing may have been encouraged by poor installation practice or too quick&nbsp;a close-in of the walls, but likely had other contributing factors.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Kiln-dried lumber is milled at 19% moisture content by weight and it takes a new house a full year to completely dry to a stable level. Modern cellulose installation techniques require very little added water, and the walls should always be left open from 1 to 3 days following application.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Running salamander-type temporary construction heaters only puts more moisture into the indoor environment. Cellulose has been successfully installed in northern climates without a vapor barrier (as long as there is good air sealing), and applying a plastic vapor barrier and closing in the wall before dry-out will almost certainly create a mold problem.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The brand of cellulose, also, makes a big difference. Only those, like National Fiber, who use EPA-certified fungicides can guarantee no mold problems.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If wall plate penetrations in the top and bottom plates are not properly sealed, this could create a significant source of moisture in the wall cavities.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>My guess is that you had a "perfect storm" caused perhaps by poor quality materials, poor installation technique, and inappropriate construction practices. Don't blame the cellulose - there is no better insulation on the market.</DIV></td></tr></table>
--0-560530797-1229031403=:81338--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:55:52 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              William C Badger AIA <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         William C Badger AIA <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: damp cellulose
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
  <title></title>
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
The borates seemed to work fine in the cellulose - there was no mold in
the it. Moisture had condensed on the back of the Typar. Too much
moisture in the application, extra moisture introduced by space
heaters, interior walls left open too long meaning to help it dry,
winter conditions promoting condensation, Typar creating issues? Any or
all are options, but no one seems to be able to pinpoint one cause or
whether it was a combination of all. NuWool was the brand and I
understand it is the good stuff. The installation installer has since
sold his business and vanished. The builder was one of the best in the
business. Walls were left open for several months (now one reputable
local installer is saying to close the walls in within a week).
Salamanders were used because no one said not to. Probably a
combination of a number of things except poor construction. Lots of
people chipped in to help fix the problem, but it still cost the
builder. Fortunately the homeowner was understanding, but until it is
established exactly why it happened it is an experiment I don't intend
to repeat. <br>
<br>
Bill<br>
<br>
Robert Riversong wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:[log in to unmask]"
 type="cite">
  <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
    <tbody>
      <tr>
        <td
 style="font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;"
 valign="top">
        <div>--- On <b>Thu, 12/11/08, William C Badger AIA <i><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</a></i></b>
wrote:</div>
        <blockquote
 style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">
          <div id="yiv324500810">Interesting material. Has anyone in
the group tried it and does anyone locally install it? We tried damp
applied cellulose in a new house a couple of years ago with disastrous
results. Black mold grew on the outside of the plywood sheathing and
the back side of the Typar house wrap. The siding had to be stripped
off and things dried out. A series of unusual circumstances that
created a perfect storm? </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div>&nbsp;</div>
        <div>The mold on your plywood sheathing may have been
encouraged by poor installation practice or too quick&nbsp;a close-in of the
walls, but likely had other contributing factors.</div>
        <div>&nbsp;</div>
        <div>Kiln-dried lumber is milled at 19% moisture content by
weight and it takes a new house a full year to completely dry to a
stable level. Modern cellulose installation techniques require very
little added water, and the walls should always be left open from 1 to
3 days following application.</div>
        <div>&nbsp;</div>
        <div>Running salamander-type temporary construction heaters
only puts more moisture into the indoor environment. Cellulose has been
successfully installed in northern climates without a vapor barrier (as
long as there is good air sealing), and applying a plastic vapor
barrier and closing in the wall before dry-out will almost certainly
create a mold problem.</div>
        <div>&nbsp;</div>
        <div>The brand of cellulose, also, makes a big difference. Only
those, like National Fiber, who use EPA-certified fungicides can
guarantee no mold problems.</div>
        <div>&nbsp;</div>
        <div>If wall plate penetrations in the top and bottom plates
are not properly sealed, this could create a significant source of
moisture in the wall cavities.</div>
        <div>&nbsp;</div>
        <div>My guess is that you had a "perfect storm" caused perhaps
by poor quality materials, poor installation technique, and
inappropriate construction practices. Don't blame the cellulose - there
is no better insulation on the market.</div>
        </td>
      </tr>
    </tbody>
  </table>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:27:46 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              "Jonathan Miller, AIA" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "Jonathan Miller, AIA" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: damp cellulose
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1--528320340

--Apple-Mail-1--528320340
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Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=US-ASCII;
	delsp=yes;
	format=flowed

Hello Bill, Robert & fellow VGBNers:
NuWool and National Fiber are equivalent, high quality cellulose  
insulation products.

Murphy CellTech www.murphyscelltech.com out of St. Johnsbury has been  
the Vermont NuWool company to go to... give owner John Unger Murphy a  
jingle to discuss cellulose insulation.
He uses the lowest possible moisture to install the cellulose and  
warrants closing up the cavity with sheetrock in 24 to 48 hours after  
installing the cellulose insulation.
I wrote a detailed GuideSpec for John that he shares with his  
Architect clients..... ask him for it.

Jonathan Miller, FCSI, SCIP, AIA, NCARB
[log in to unmask]

On Dec 11, 2008, at 4:55 PM, William C Badger AIA wrote:

> The borates seemed to work fine in the cellulose - there was no  
> mold in the it. Moisture had condensed on the back of the Typar.  
> Too much moisture in the application, extra moisture introduced by  
> space heaters, interior walls left open too long meaning to help it  
> dry, winter conditions promoting condensation, Typar creating  
> issues? Any or all are options, but no one seems to be able to  
> pinpoint one cause or whether it was a combination of all. NuWool  
> was the brand and I understand it is the good stuff. The  
> installation installer has since sold his business and vanished.  
> The builder was one of the best in the business. Walls were left  
> open for several months (now one reputable local installer is  
> saying to close the walls in within a week). Salamanders were used  
> because no one said not to. Probably a combination of a number of  
> things except poor construction. Lots of people chipped in to help  
> fix the problem, but it still cost the builder. Fortunately the  
> homeowner was understanding, but until it is established exactly  
> why it happened it is an experiment I don't intend to repeat.
>
> Bill
>
> Robert Riversong wrote:
>>
>> --- On Thu, 12/11/08, William C Badger AIA  
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> Interesting material. Has anyone in the group tried it and does  
>> anyone locally install it? We tried damp applied cellulose in a  
>> new house a couple of years ago with disastrous results. Black  
>> mold grew on the outside of the plywood sheathing and the back  
>> side of the Typar house wrap. The siding had to be stripped off  
>> and things dried out. A series of unusual circumstances that  
>> created a perfect storm?
>>
>> The mold on your plywood sheathing may have been encouraged by  
>> poor installation practice or too quick a close-in of the walls,  
>> but likely had other contributing factors.
>>
>> Kiln-dried lumber is milled at 19% moisture content by weight and  
>> it takes a new house a full year to completely dry to a stable  
>> level. Modern cellulose installation techniques require very  
>> little added water, and the walls should always be left open from  
>> 1 to 3 days following application.
>>
>> Running salamander-type temporary construction heaters only puts  
>> more moisture into the indoor environment. Cellulose has been  
>> successfully installed in northern climates without a vapor  
>> barrier (as long as there is good air sealing), and applying a  
>> plastic vapor barrier and closing in the wall before dry-out will  
>> almost certainly create a mold problem.
>>
>> The brand of cellulose, also, makes a big difference. Only those,  
>> like National Fiber, who use EPA-certified fungicides can  
>> guarantee no mold problems.
>>
>> If wall plate penetrations in the top and bottom plates are not  
>> properly sealed, this could create a significant source of  
>> moisture in the wall cavities.
>>
>> My guess is that you had a "perfect storm" caused perhaps by poor  
>> quality materials, poor installation technique, and inappropriate  
>> construction practices. Don't blame the cellulose - there is no  
>> better insulation on the market.


--Apple-Mail-1--528320340
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=ISO-8859-1

<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
Hello Bill, Robert &amp; fellow VGBNers:<div>NuWool and National Fiber =
are equivalent, high quality cellulose insulation =
products.</div><div><br></div><div>Murphy =
CellTech=A0www.murphyscelltech.com=A0out of St. Johnsbury has been the =
Vermont NuWool company to go to... give owner John Unger Murphy a jingle =
to discuss cellulose insulation.</div><div>He uses the lowest possible =
moisture=A0to install the cellulose and warrants closing up the cavity =
with sheetrock in 24 to 48 hours after installing the cellulose =
insulation.</div><div>I wrote a detailed GuideSpec for John that he =
shares with his Architect clients..... ask him for =
it.</div><div><br><div> <span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div>Jonathan Miller,<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</span><span class=3D"Apple-style-span"=
 style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 9px; font-style: italic; =
">FCSI, SCIP, AIA, NCARB</span></div><div><a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=A0</=
div><div><br></div></span></span></span></span></div><div><div>On Dec =
11, 2008, at 4:55 PM, William C Badger AIA wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite">  The =
borates seemed to work fine in the cellulose - there was no mold in the =
it. Moisture had condensed on the back of the Typar. Too much moisture =
in the application, extra moisture introduced by space heaters, interior =
walls left open too long meaning to help it dry, winter conditions =
promoting condensation, Typar creating issues? Any or all are options, =
but no one seems to be able to pinpoint one cause or whether it was a =
combination of all. NuWool was the brand and I understand it is the good =
stuff. The installation installer has since sold his business and =
vanished. The builder was one of the best in the business. Walls were =
left open for several months (now one reputable local installer is =
saying to close the walls in within a week). Salamanders were used =
because no one said not to. Probably a combination of a number of things =
except poor construction. Lots of people chipped in to help fix the =
problem, but it still cost the builder. Fortunately the homeowner was =
understanding, but until it is established exactly why it happened it is =
an experiment I don't intend to repeat. <br> <br> Bill<br> <br> Robert =
Riversong wrote: <blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:[log in to unmask]" type=3D"cite">=
  <table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0">    <tbody>    =
  <tr>        <td style=3D"font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; =
font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; =
line-height: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;" =
valign=3D"top">        <div>--- On <b>Thu, 12/11/08, William C Badger =
AIA <i><a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">&lt;wcbadger@BADGERANDASS=
OCIATES.COM></a></i></b> wrote:</div>        <blockquote =
style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; =
margin-left: 5px;">          <div id=3D"yiv324500810">Interesting =
material. Has anyone in the group tried it and does anyone locally =
install it? We tried damp applied cellulose in a new house a couple of =
years ago with disastrous results. Black mold grew on the outside of the =
plywood sheathing and the back side of the Typar house wrap. The siding =
had to be stripped off and things dried out. A series of unusual =
circumstances that created a perfect storm? </div>        </blockquote>  =
      <div>=A0</div>        <div>The mold on your plywood sheathing may =
have been encouraged by poor installation practice or too quick=A0a =
close-in of the walls, but likely had other contributing factors.</div>  =
      <div>=A0</div>        <div>Kiln-dried lumber is milled at 19% =
moisture content by weight and it takes a new house a full year to =
completely dry to a stable level. Modern cellulose installation =
techniques require very little added water, and the walls should always =
be left open from 1 to 3 days following application.</div>        =
<div>=A0</div>        <div>Running salamander-type temporary =
construction heaters only puts more moisture into the indoor =
environment. Cellulose has been successfully installed in northern =
climates without a vapor barrier (as long as there is good air sealing), =
and applying a plastic vapor barrier and closing in the wall before =
dry-out will almost certainly create a mold problem.</div>        =
<div>=A0</div>        <div>The brand of cellulose, also, makes a big =
difference. Only those, like National Fiber, who use EPA-certified =
fungicides can guarantee no mold problems.</div>        <div>=A0</div>   =
     <div>If wall plate penetrations in the top and bottom plates are =
not properly sealed, this could create a significant source of moisture =
in the wall cavities.</div>        <div>=A0</div>        <div>My guess =
is that you had a "perfect storm" caused perhaps by poor quality =
materials, poor installation technique, and inappropriate construction =
practices. Don't blame the cellulose - there is no better insulation on =
the market.</div>        </td>      </tr>    </tbody>  </table> =
</blockquote>  </blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-1--528320340--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:10:19 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Tim Yandow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
Comments: To: Richard Faesy <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I agree with Richard that using petro based insulation is a better choice
than burning it. Although I am a big proponent of cellulose and use it
almost exclusively in the homes I build, there are instances where foam is
very useful, such as in attic trusses where you may only have 6-8 inches
of truss rafter to place insulation in a finished attic space and can't
afford to loose the headroom. I think it is important to stay open minded
about insulation materials and their appropriate applications as we are
still in the petroleum age and working towards figuring  out how to rid
ourselves of petroleum based building materials.

Tim Yandow

> In my book, using petrochemicals for high-performance
> insulation/air-sealing is a much better use of oil than is burning it to
> stay warm.
>
> Richard Faesy
> Vermont Energy Investment Corp.
> 14 School Street
> Bristol, Vermont  05443
> P: 802-453-5100 x19
> F: 802-453-5001
> C: 802-355-9153
>
> From: VGBN Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Suzy
> Hodgson
> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:03 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [VGBNTALK] not natural building products?
>
> cellulose insulation made with recycled paper is a good green option with
> performance - high R value  and low ghg emissions
> On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong wrote:
>
>
> Icynene vs straw is a good example of the difficulty in making appropriate
> choices of "green" materials.
>
> While I don't think that spray foams should be used in new construction,
> stuffing straw into existing walls for a retrofit/upgrade is not a
> sensible option and with a limited wall cavity Icynene may be the best
> alternative for renovation. Even for new construction, straw bales - with
> their low R-value per inch (—1.45, about the same as lumber) may not be
> the best choice.
>
> Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting installation
> by-products, Icynene has only a little more embodied energy per cubic foot
> than fiberglass (not that I would recommend fiberglass for anything),
> typically less installed embodied energy (since framing bays are not
> generally completely filled) and better efficiency payback.
>
> Best use of remaining fossil energy and petrochemicals? Not so simple to
> discern.
>
> --- On Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey
> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> Point taken.  I admittedly was thinking of products like Icynene vs.
> straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are part of our entire world.
>
> On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote:
> --- On Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey
> <[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>  Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the majority of
> green building products (not natural building products such as straw
> bales)...
>
> I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production of most straw and
> since some of it is coming from Canada, there's also transportation costs.
> "Natural" building materials are not necessarily immune from the
> environmental costs of other materials.
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:23:35 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Tim Yandow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: damp cellulose
Comments: To: William C Badger AIA <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Can someone explain to me how a Salamander can exacerbate moisture issues
during dry out? Is this a problem with dense pack as well? What would be a
better way to provide heat for drywall and painting after insulation
installation than space heaters?
Tim Yandow


>            The borates seemed to work fine in the cellulose - there was no
> mold in the it. Moisture had condensed on the back of the
> Typar. Too much moisture in the application, extra moisture
> introduced by space heaters, interior walls left open too long
> meaning to help it dry, winter conditions promoting
> condensation, Typar creating issues? Any or all are options,
> but no one seems to be able to pinpoint one cause or whether it
> was a combination of all. NuWool was the brand and I understand
> it is the good stuff. The installation installer has since sold
> his business and vanished. The builder was one of the best in
> the business. Walls were left open for several months (now one
> reputable local installer is saying to close the walls in
> within a week). Salamanders were used because no one said not
> to. Probably a combination of a number of things except poor
> construction. Lots of people chipped in to help fix the
> problem, but it still cost the builder. Fortunately the
> homeowner was understanding, but until it is established
> exactly why it happened it is an experiment I don't intend to
> repeat.
>
>  Bill
>
>  Robert Riversong wrote:                                  --- On Thu,
> 12/11/08, William C Badger AIA  wrote:                    Interesting
> material. Has anyone in the group tried it and does anyone locally
> install it? We tried damp applied cellulose in a new house a couple of
> years ago with disastrous results. Black mold grew on the outside of the
> plywood sheathing and the back side of the Typar house wrap. The siding
> had to be stripped off and things dried out. A series of unusual
> circumstances that created a perfect storm?
> The mold on your plywood sheathing may have been encouraged by poor
> installation practice or too quick a close-in of the walls, but likely
> had other contributing factors.                   Kiln-dried lumber is
> milled at 19% moisture content by weight and it takes a new house a full
> year to completely dry to a stable level. Modern cellulose installation
> techniques require very little added water, and the walls should always
> be left open from 1 to 3 days following application.
> Running salamander-type temporary construction heaters only puts more
> moisture into the indoor environment. Cellulose has been successfully
> installed in northern climates without a vapor barrier (as long as there
> is good air sealing), and applying a plastic vapor barrier and closing in
> the wall before dry-out will almost certainly create a mold problem.
>              The brand of cellulose, also, makes a big difference. Only
> those, like National Fiber, who use EPA-certified fungicides can
> guarantee no mold problems.                   If wall plate penetrations
> in the top and bottom plates are not properly sealed, this could create a
> significant source of moisture in the wall cavities.                   My
> guess is that you had a "perfect storm" caused perhaps by poor quality
> materials, poor installation technique, and inappropriate construction
> practices. Don't blame the cellulose - there is no better insulation on
> the market.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:27:14 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Did anyone catch the article in the Rutland Herald about this inventor in
southern vt that is working on a real insulation product from mushrooms?
Maybe a couple of months ago.

Ben


On 12/11/08 8:10 PM, "Tim Yandow" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> I agree with Richard that using petro based insulation is a better choice
> than burning it. Although I am a big proponent of cellulose and use it
> almost exclusively in the homes I build, there are instances where foam i=
s
> very useful, such as in attic trusses where you may only have 6-8 inches
> of truss rafter to place insulation in a finished attic space and can't
> afford to loose the headroom. I think it is important to stay open minded
> about insulation materials and their appropriate applications as we are
> still in the petroleum age and working towards figuring  out how to rid
> ourselves of petroleum based building materials.
>=20
> Tim Yandow
>=20
>> In my book, using petrochemicals for high-performance
>> insulation/air-sealing is a much better use of oil than is burning it to
>> stay warm.
>>=20
>> Richard Faesy
>> Vermont Energy Investment Corp.
>> 14 School Street
>> Bristol, Vermont  05443
>> P: 802-453-5100 x19
>> F: 802-453-5001
>> C: 802-355-9153
>>=20
>> From: VGBN Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Suzy
>> Hodgson
>> Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:03 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [VGBNTALK] not natural building products?
>>=20
>> cellulose insulation made with recycled paper is a good green option wit=
h
>> performance - high R value  and low ghg emissions
>> On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> Icynene vs straw is a good example of the difficulty in making appropria=
te
>> choices of "green" materials.
>>=20
>> While I don't think that spray foams should be used in new construction,
>> stuffing straw into existing walls for a retrofit/upgrade is not a
>> sensible option and with a limited wall cavity Icynene may be the best
>> alternative for renovation. Even for new construction, straw bales - wit=
h
>> their low R-value per inch (=971.45, about the same as lumber) may not be
>> the best choice.
>>=20
>> Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting installation
>> by-products, Icynene has only a little more embodied energy per cubic fo=
ot
>> than fiberglass (not that I would recommend fiberglass for anything),
>> typically less installed embodied energy (since framing bays are not
>> generally completely filled) and better efficiency payback.
>>=20
>> Best use of remaining fossil energy and petrochemicals? Not so simple to
>> discern.
>>=20
>> --- On Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey
>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>> Point taken.  I admittedly was thinking of products like Icynene vs.
>> straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are part of our entire world.
>>=20
>> On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote:
>> --- On Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey
>> <[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>  Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and transport the majority of
>> green building products (not natural building products such as straw
>> bales)...
>>=20
>> I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the production of most straw a=
nd
>> since some of it is coming from Canada, there's also transportation cost=
s.
>> "Natural" building materials are not necessarily immune from the
>> environmental costs of other materials.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20

Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
Benjamin Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and Nature
802.454.1167
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:57:20 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: damp cellulose
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

I have found that air movement is best for drying. IE fans or dehumidifiers.
Seems like they are standard tools for the fast track contractor these days.

Ben Graham


On 12/11/08 8:23 PM, "Tim Yandow" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Can someone explain to me how a Salamander can exacerbate moisture issues
> during dry out? Is this a problem with dense pack as well? What would be a
> better way to provide heat for drywall and painting after insulation
> installation than space heaters?
> Tim Yandow
> 
> 
>>            The borates seemed to work fine in the cellulose - there was no
>> mold in the it. Moisture had condensed on the back of the
>> Typar. Too much moisture in the application, extra moisture
>> introduced by space heaters, interior walls left open too long
>> meaning to help it dry, winter conditions promoting
>> condensation, Typar creating issues? Any or all are options,
>> but no one seems to be able to pinpoint one cause or whether it
>> was a combination of all. NuWool was the brand and I understand
>> it is the good stuff. The installation installer has since sold
>> his business and vanished. The builder was one of the best in
>> the business. Walls were left open for several months (now one
>> reputable local installer is saying to close the walls in
>> within a week). Salamanders were used because no one said not
>> to. Probably a combination of a number of things except poor
>> construction. Lots of people chipped in to help fix the
>> problem, but it still cost the builder. Fortunately the
>> homeowner was understanding, but until it is established
>> exactly why it happened it is an experiment I don't intend to
>> repeat.
>> 
>>  Bill
>> 
>>  Robert Riversong wrote:                                  --- On Thu,
>> 12/11/08, William C Badger AIA  wrote:                    Interesting
>> material. Has anyone in the group tried it and does anyone locally
>> install it? We tried damp applied cellulose in a new house a couple of
>> years ago with disastrous results. Black mold grew on the outside of the
>> plywood sheathing and the back side of the Typar house wrap. The siding
>> had to be stripped off and things dried out. A series of unusual
>> circumstances that created a perfect storm?
>> The mold on your plywood sheathing may have been encouraged by poor
>> installation practice or too quick a close-in of the walls, but likely
>> had other contributing factors.                   Kiln-dried lumber is
>> milled at 19% moisture content by weight and it takes a new house a full
>> year to completely dry to a stable level. Modern cellulose installation
>> techniques require very little added water, and the walls should always
>> be left open from 1 to 3 days following application.
>> Running salamander-type temporary construction heaters only puts more
>> moisture into the indoor environment. Cellulose has been successfully
>> installed in northern climates without a vapor barrier (as long as there
>> is good air sealing), and applying a plastic vapor barrier and closing in
>> the wall before dry-out will almost certainly create a mold problem.
>>              The brand of cellulose, also, makes a big difference. Only
>> those, like National Fiber, who use EPA-certified fungicides can
>> guarantee no mold problems.                   If wall plate penetrations
>> in the top and bottom plates are not properly sealed, this could create a
>> significant source of moisture in the wall cavities.                   My
>> guess is that you had a "perfect storm" caused perhaps by poor quality
>> materials, poor installation technique, and inappropriate construction
>> practices. Don't blame the cellulose - there is no better insulation on
>> the market.

Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
Benjamin Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and Nature
802.454.1167
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:10:54 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Charlene and Jonathan <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Charlene and Jonathan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: damp cellulose
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Any space heater that is not vented leaves the combustion products in  
the heated space.  Thus, Salamanders and propane heaters introduce  
tremendous amounts of water vapor, along with CO2 and CO and other  
pollutants into the heated space.  We have used old direct vent gas  
heaters, vented through a window opening to very effectively provide  
temporary heat in our projects.
	Jonathan Morse
	Marlboro, VT


On Dec 11, 2008, at 8:23 PM, Tim Yandow wrote:

> Can someone explain to me how a Salamander can exacerbate moisture  
> issues
> during dry out? Is this a problem with dense pack as well? What  
> would be a
> better way to provide heat for drywall and painting after insulation
> installation than space heaters?
> Tim Yandow
>
>
>>            The borates seemed to work fine in the cellulose -  
>> there was no
>> mold in the it. Moisture had condensed on the back of the
>> Typar. Too much moisture in the application, extra moisture
>> introduced by space heaters, interior walls left open too long
>> meaning to help it dry, winter conditions promoting
>> condensation, Typar creating issues? Any or all are options,
>> but no one seems to be able to pinpoint one cause or whether it
>> was a combination of all. NuWool was the brand and I understand
>> it is the good stuff. The installation installer has since sold
>> his business and vanished. The builder was one of the best in
>> the business. Walls were left open for several months (now one
>> reputable local installer is saying to close the walls in
>> within a week). Salamanders were used because no one said not
>> to. Probably a combination of a number of things except poor
>> construction. Lots of people chipped in to help fix the
>> problem, but it still cost the builder. Fortunately the
>> homeowner was understanding, but until it is established
>> exactly why it happened it is an experiment I don't intend to
>> repeat.
>>
>>  Bill
>>
>>  Robert Riversong wrote:                                  --- On Thu,
>> 12/11/08, William C Badger AIA  wrote:                    Interesting
>> material. Has anyone in the group tried it and does anyone locally
>> install it? We tried damp applied cellulose in a new house a  
>> couple of
>> years ago with disastrous results. Black mold grew on the outside  
>> of the
>> plywood sheathing and the back side of the Typar house wrap. The  
>> siding
>> had to be stripped off and things dried out. A series of unusual
>> circumstances that created a perfect storm?
>> The mold on your plywood sheathing may have been encouraged by poor
>> installation practice or too quick a close-in of the walls, but  
>> likely
>> had other contributing factors.                   Kiln-dried  
>> lumber is
>> milled at 19% moisture content by weight and it takes a new house  
>> a full
>> year to completely dry to a stable level. Modern cellulose  
>> installation
>> techniques require very little added water, and the walls should  
>> always
>> be left open from 1 to 3 days following application.
>> Running salamander-type temporary construction heaters only puts more
>> moisture into the indoor environment. Cellulose has been successfully
>> installed in northern climates without a vapor barrier (as long as  
>> there
>> is good air sealing), and applying a plastic vapor barrier and  
>> closing in
>> the wall before dry-out will almost certainly create a mold problem.
>>              The brand of cellulose, also, makes a big difference.  
>> Only
>> those, like National Fiber, who use EPA-certified fungicides can
>> guarantee no mold problems.                   If wall plate  
>> penetrations
>> in the top and bottom plates are not properly sealed, this could  
>> create a
>> significant source of moisture in the wall  
>> cavities.                   My
>> guess is that you had a "perfect storm" caused perhaps by poor  
>> quality
>> materials, poor installation technique, and inappropriate  
>> construction
>> practices. Don't blame the cellulose - there is no better  
>> insulation on
>> the market.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:14:06 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Charlene and Jonathan <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Charlene and Jonathan <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: damp cellulose
Comments: To: Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I forgot to say that we have stopped using damp-spray cellulose  
because the moisture stays in the building way too long, and have had  
excellent results with dense-pack.
	Jonathan Morse


On Dec 11, 2008, at 8:57 PM, Ben Graham wrote:

> I have found that air movement is best for drying. IE fans or  
> dehumidifiers.
> Seems like they are standard tools for the fast track contractor  
> these days.
>
> Ben Graham
>
>
> On 12/11/08 8:23 PM, "Tim Yandow" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Can someone explain to me how a Salamander can exacerbate moisture  
>> issues
>> during dry out? Is this a problem with dense pack as well? What  
>> would be a
>> better way to provide heat for drywall and painting after insulation
>> installation than space heaters?
>> Tim Yandow
>>
>>
>>>            The borates seemed to work fine in the cellulose -  
>>> there was no
>>> mold in the it. Moisture had condensed on the back of the
>>> Typar. Too much moisture in the application, extra moisture
>>> introduced by space heaters, interior walls left open too long
>>> meaning to help it dry, winter conditions promoting
>>> condensation, Typar creating issues? Any or all are options,
>>> but no one seems to be able to pinpoint one cause or whether it
>>> was a combination of all. NuWool was the brand and I understand
>>> it is the good stuff. The installation installer has since sold
>>> his business and vanished. The builder was one of the best in
>>> the business. Walls were left open for several months (now one
>>> reputable local installer is saying to close the walls in
>>> within a week). Salamanders were used because no one said not
>>> to. Probably a combination of a number of things except poor
>>> construction. Lots of people chipped in to help fix the
>>> problem, but it still cost the builder. Fortunately the
>>> homeowner was understanding, but until it is established
>>> exactly why it happened it is an experiment I don't intend to
>>> repeat.
>>>
>>>  Bill
>>>
>>>  Robert Riversong wrote:                                  --- On  
>>> Thu,
>>> 12/11/08, William C Badger AIA  wrote:                     
>>> Interesting
>>> material. Has anyone in the group tried it and does anyone locally
>>> install it? We tried damp applied cellulose in a new house a  
>>> couple of
>>> years ago with disastrous results. Black mold grew on the outside  
>>> of the
>>> plywood sheathing and the back side of the Typar house wrap. The  
>>> siding
>>> had to be stripped off and things dried out. A series of unusual
>>> circumstances that created a perfect storm?
>>> The mold on your plywood sheathing may have been encouraged by poor
>>> installation practice or too quick a close-in of the walls, but  
>>> likely
>>> had other contributing factors.                   Kiln-dried  
>>> lumber is
>>> milled at 19% moisture content by weight and it takes a new house  
>>> a full
>>> year to completely dry to a stable level. Modern cellulose  
>>> installation
>>> techniques require very little added water, and the walls should  
>>> always
>>> be left open from 1 to 3 days following application.
>>> Running salamander-type temporary construction heaters only puts  
>>> more
>>> moisture into the indoor environment. Cellulose has been  
>>> successfully
>>> installed in northern climates without a vapor barrier (as long  
>>> as there
>>> is good air sealing), and applying a plastic vapor barrier and  
>>> closing in
>>> the wall before dry-out will almost certainly create a mold problem.
>>>              The brand of cellulose, also, makes a big  
>>> difference. Only
>>> those, like National Fiber, who use EPA-certified fungicides can
>>> guarantee no mold problems.                   If wall plate  
>>> penetrations
>>> in the top and bottom plates are not properly sealed, this could  
>>> create a
>>> significant source of moisture in the wall  
>>> cavities.                   My
>>> guess is that you had a "perfect storm" caused perhaps by poor  
>>> quality
>>> materials, poor installation technique, and inappropriate  
>>> construction
>>> practices. Don't blame the cellulose - there is no better  
>>> insulation on
>>> the market.
>
> Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
> Benjamin Franklin
> __________________________________________________________
>
> Ben Graham
> www.naturaldesignbuild.us
> Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting
>
> Integrating Culture and Nature
> 802.454.1167
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:03:59 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Tim Yandow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: damp cellulose
Comments: To: Charlene and Jonathan <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
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Thank you, Jonathan. Yes, I am using dense pack as well on my current
project. My insulator is quite adept at wet spray and if done properly, it
works very well. I have found that using a vapor barrier with wet spray is
an invitation to disaster though. The walls need to breathe.
Tim Yandow

> I forgot to say that we have stopped using damp-spray cellulose
> because the moisture stays in the building way too long, and have had
> excellent results with dense-pack.
> 	Jonathan Morse
>
>
> On Dec 11, 2008, at 8:57 PM, Ben Graham wrote:
>
>> I have found that air movement is best for drying. IE fans or
>> dehumidifiers.
>> Seems like they are standard tools for the fast track contractor
>> these days.
>>
>> Ben Graham
>>
>>
>> On 12/11/08 8:23 PM, "Tim Yandow" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> Can someone explain to me how a Salamander can exacerbate moisture
>>> issues
>>> during dry out? Is this a problem with dense pack as well? What
>>> would be a
>>> better way to provide heat for drywall and painting after insulation
>>> installation than space heaters?
>>> Tim Yandow
>>>
>>>
>>>>            The borates seemed to work fine in the cellulose -
>>>> there was no
>>>> mold in the it. Moisture had condensed on the back of the
>>>> Typar. Too much moisture in the application, extra moisture
>>>> introduced by space heaters, interior walls left open too long
>>>> meaning to help it dry, winter conditions promoting
>>>> condensation, Typar creating issues? Any or all are options,
>>>> but no one seems to be able to pinpoint one cause or whether it
>>>> was a combination of all. NuWool was the brand and I understand
>>>> it is the good stuff. The installation installer has since sold
>>>> his business and vanished. The builder was one of the best in
>>>> the business. Walls were left open for several months (now one
>>>> reputable local installer is saying to close the walls in
>>>> within a week). Salamanders were used because no one said not
>>>> to. Probably a combination of a number of things except poor
>>>> construction. Lots of people chipped in to help fix the
>>>> problem, but it still cost the builder. Fortunately the
>>>> homeowner was understanding, but until it is established
>>>> exactly why it happened it is an experiment I don't intend to
>>>> repeat.
>>>>
>>>>  Bill
>>>>
>>>>  Robert Riversong wrote:                                  --- On
>>>> Thu,
>>>> 12/11/08, William C Badger AIA  wrote:
>>>> Interesting
>>>> material. Has anyone in the group tried it and does anyone locally
>>>> install it? We tried damp applied cellulose in a new house a
>>>> couple of
>>>> years ago with disastrous results. Black mold grew on the outside
>>>> of the
>>>> plywood sheathing and the back side of the Typar house wrap. The
>>>> siding
>>>> had to be stripped off and things dried out. A series of unusual
>>>> circumstances that created a perfect storm?
>>>> The mold on your plywood sheathing may have been encouraged by poor
>>>> installation practice or too quick a close-in of the walls, but
>>>> likely
>>>> had other contributing factors.                   Kiln-dried
>>>> lumber is
>>>> milled at 19% moisture content by weight and it takes a new house
>>>> a full
>>>> year to completely dry to a stable level. Modern cellulose
>>>> installation
>>>> techniques require very little added water, and the walls should
>>>> always
>>>> be left open from 1 to 3 days following application.
>>>> Running salamander-type temporary construction heaters only puts
>>>> more
>>>> moisture into the indoor environment. Cellulose has been
>>>> successfully
>>>> installed in northern climates without a vapor barrier (as long
>>>> as there
>>>> is good air sealing), and applying a plastic vapor barrier and
>>>> closing in
>>>> the wall before dry-out will almost certainly create a mold problem.
>>>>              The brand of cellulose, also, makes a big
>>>> difference. Only
>>>> those, like National Fiber, who use EPA-certified fungicides can
>>>> guarantee no mold problems.                   If wall plate
>>>> penetrations
>>>> in the top and bottom plates are not properly sealed, this could
>>>> create a
>>>> significant source of moisture in the wall
>>>> cavities.                   My
>>>> guess is that you had a "perfect storm" caused perhaps by poor
>>>> quality
>>>> materials, poor installation technique, and inappropriate
>>>> construction
>>>> practices. Don't blame the cellulose - there is no better
>>>> insulation on
>>>> the market.
>>
>> Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
>> Benjamin Franklin
>> __________________________________________________________
>>
>> Ben Graham
>> www.naturaldesignbuild.us
>> Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting
>>
>> Integrating Culture and Nature
>> 802.454.1167
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:04:42 -0800
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: damp cellulose
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I believe that a plastic vapor barrier is an invitation to problems in almo=
st any thermal envelope. It was promulgated by code when most houses were i=
nsulated with fiberglass and there was little attention to (even recognitio=
n of) the need for air-tightness.
=A0
In addition to preventing a thermal assembly from breathing (diffusion dryi=
ng to the inside), it also prevents a wonderfully hygroscopic material like=
 cellulose from performing as a moisture buffer to stabilize indoor RH, and=
 likely creates a static charge which draws negative ions out of the living=
 environment.
=A0
Now that it's been proven that, with reasonable indoor RH levels,=A0diffusi=
on contributes as little as 1% of the total moisture load in a thermal enve=
lope during the heating season, and that stopping air movement is the key t=
o preventing indoor-generated moisture problems in the structure, the air-t=
ight drywall approach solves all the problems without creating more.
=A0
Unfortunately, particularly for the sustainable building community, sprayed=
 foam is being touted as a solution to moisture problems, when it (much lik=
e plastic VBs) creates its own set of negative consequences, since closed-c=
ell foam has no moisture storage (buffering) ablity and open-cell foam can =
trap moisture and cause wood rot and mold. This, of course, in addition to =
the non-renewable resource depletion, embodied energy and carbon contributi=
on issues.
=A0
I have calculated that, compared to a 2000 SF reasonably well-sealed code-s=
tandard fiberglass-insulated house (0.5 ACH), a urethane sprayed house (wit=
h insulated gable walls and roof assembly rather than ceiling), even accoun=
ting for an increase in air-tightness (min. 0.35 ACH), will have an additio=
nal embodied energy cost that would require 23 years of operation to pay ba=
ck.
=A0
The same fiberglass-insulated house with 1" of exterior XPS and=A00.35 ACH =
would have an additional embodied energy payback of less than 1 year, in la=
rge part because it results in much greater energy savings than the typical=
 sprayed urethane, mostly by eliminating thermal bridging.
=A0
Open-cell sprayed Icynene has almost the same embodied energy liability as =
the fiberglass, but it would result in a less energy-efficient house.
=A0
A similar house with 2x8 framing 24 oc (instead of 2x6 16 oc for the others=
), which uses no more total wood, and made very tight with the air-tight-dr=
ywall system (0.25 ACH, which is adequate in a non-toxic breathable house),=
 would have 41% of the insulation embodied energy of the fiberglass (less t=
han 5% of the urethane) and use 39% less heating energy.=A0

--- On Fri, 12/12/08, Tim Yandow <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

I have found that using a vapor barrier with wet spray is
an invitation to disaster though. The walls need to breathe.
Tim Yandow


--0-1461071156-1229097882=:80730
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>I believe that a plastic vapor barrier is an invitation to problems in almost any thermal envelope. It was promulgated by code when most houses were insulated with fiberglass and there was little attention to (even recognition of) the need for air-tightness.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In addition to preventing a thermal assembly from breathing (diffusion drying to the inside), it also prevents a wonderfully hygroscopic material like cellulose from performing as a moisture buffer to stabilize indoor RH, and likely creates a static charge which draws negative ions out of the living environment.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Now that it's been proven that, with reasonable indoor RH levels,&nbsp;diffusion contributes as little as 1% of the total moisture load in a thermal envelope during the heating season, and that stopping air movement is the key to preventing indoor-generated moisture problems in the structure, the air-tight drywall approach solves all the problems without creating more.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Unfortunately, particularly for the sustainable building community, sprayed foam is being touted as a solution to moisture problems, when it (much like plastic VBs) creates its own set of negative consequences, since closed-cell foam has no moisture storage (buffering) ablity and open-cell foam can trap moisture and cause wood rot and mold. This, of course, in addition to the non-renewable resource depletion, embodied energy and carbon contribution issues.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I have calculated that, compared to a 2000 SF reasonably well-sealed code-standard fiberglass-insulated house (0.5 ACH), a urethane sprayed house (with insulated gable walls and roof assembly rather than ceiling), even accounting for an increase in air-tightness (min. 0.35 ACH), will have an additional embodied energy cost that would require 23 years of operation to pay back.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The same fiberglass-insulated house with 1" of exterior XPS and&nbsp;0.35 ACH would have an additional embodied energy payback of less than 1 year, in large part because it results in much greater energy savings than the typical sprayed urethane, mostly by eliminating thermal bridging.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Open-cell sprayed Icynene has almost the same embodied energy liability as the fiberglass, but it would result in a less energy-efficient house.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>A similar house with 2x8 framing 24 oc (instead of 2x6 16 oc for the others), which uses no more total wood, and made very tight with the air-tight-drywall system (0.25 ACH, which is adequate in a non-toxic breathable house), would have 41% of the insulation embodied energy of the fiberglass (less than 5% of the urethane) and use 39% less heating energy.&nbsp;<BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 12/12/08, Tim Yandow <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><PRE>I have found that using a vapor barrier with wet spray is
an invitation to disaster though. The walls need to breathe.
Tim Yandow

</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table>
--0-1461071156-1229097882=:80730--
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:01:31 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Jeff Gephart <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Jeff Gephart <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: damp cellulose
Comments: To: Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007A_01C95C6A.845F59E0"

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Hi all,

=20

Robert has it pretty well nailed down in his comments; however, some =
clarifications could be helpful to those following this discussion.

=20

Robert wrote:  I believe that a plastic vapor barrier is an invitation =
to problems in almost any thermal envelope. It was promulgated by code =
when most houses were insulated with fiberglass and there was little =
attention to (even recognition of) the need for air-tightness.

=20

Putting a Vermont Residential Building Energy Standard (RBES/Code) =
required vapor retarder with a perm rating of 1.0 or less on the =
warm-in-winter side of nonframed ceilings, walls, and floors can and =
should be accomplished without the use of poly.  An appropriate vapor =
retarder can be installed via the use of the airtight drywall approach =
(mentioned later in Robert's email) coupled with the use of vapor =
retarder or barrier paints.  This is a better approach as poly almost =
never serves as an effective air barrier and in fact usually interferes =
with efforts to achieve an effective air barrier.  As Robert also =
correctly implies later in his email, diffusion (water vapor transport =
through permeable and semi-permeable building materials flowing from =
areas of high vapor pressure to lower vapor pressure) is the minor vapor =
transport mechanism.  Air leakage following heat transfer (hot to cold) =
is the major water vapor transporter in most buildings.

=20

Robert wrote:  The same fiberglass-insulated house with 1" of exterior =
XPS and 0.35 ACH would have an additional embodied energy payback of =
less than 1 year, in large part because it results in much greater =
energy savings than the typical sprayed urethane, mostly by eliminating =
thermal bridging.

=20

If the building assembly is such that "moisture or its freezing will not =
damage building materials and/or insulation" (to quote RBES), as would =
be the case with an exterior XPS wrap or some other exterior rigid foam =
insulation wrap of sufficient R-value, the home would not require a =
warm-in-winter side vapor retarder.  I point out though that 2" XPS =
(R-10) or other insulated sheathing materials at R-10 are needed in our =
climate zone to prevent moisture or its freezing from damaging building =
materials and/or insulation.  At R-5, 1" XPS will allow condensing =
surfaces to exist during sufficient portions of the year.  With only an =
R-5 exterior wrap, should warm moist interior air get into a wall =
cavity, it will find surfaces below the dew point and condensation could =
then damage building materials and/or insulation.

=20

Robert wrote:  I have calculated that, compared to a 2000 SF reasonably =
well-sealed code-standard fiberglass-insulated house (0.5 ACH), a =
urethane sprayed house (with insulated gable walls and roof assembly =
rather than ceiling), even accounting for an increase in air-tightness =
(min. 0.35 ACH), will have an additional embodied energy cost that would =
require 23 years of operation to pay back.

=20

The ACH building tightness numbers Robert discusses refer to estimated =
"natural air changes per hour" or ACHNatural (ACHNat).  These numbers =
are derived by testing the home with a blower door and then comparing =
the leakage measured (CFM50 - cubic feet per minute at 50 pascals =
pressure difference) to home's volume to estimate the air change rate =
that a house leaks under "normal" conditions.  This can only be roughly =
estimated and it erroneously implies a specific air change rate as a =
constant.  The air change rate is not constant and varies widely over =
time because natural ventilation is driven by temperature difference and =
pressure difference. =20

=20

I admit culpability in training many VT builders to look at and gauge =
their performance via the ACHNat results they achieved on their Home =
Energy Rating certificates.  However, it would be far better if we =
looked at our buildings using air changes per hour at 50 pascals =
pressure difference (ACH50).  This eliminates the estimate that has to =
be made as to what's "normal" operation and significantly improves the =
accuracy of this measurement.  To determine ACH50 the following formula =
is used:=20

=20

CFM50 x 60 (minutes/hour) / house volume (cu. ft.) =3D ACH50 (Air =
Changes per Hour at 50 Pascals). =20

=20

The CFM50 and the house volume are outputs on the new Index Home Energy =
Rating certificates.  Target ACH50 results should be <=3D 5 ACH50.  =
Better yet would be to eliminate the house volume and compare our =
leakage against the amount of exterior surface area but we are not able =
to present that in our certificates.

=20

On the last roughly 3,600 homes we have blower door tested (all =
participants in Efficiency Vermont programs), 73% are at or below .35 =
ACHNat.  For that same sample, 69% are at or below 5 ACH50.

=20

How long do want our houses to last?  I wouldn't sneeze at a 23 year =
payback if we're looking at an economic life of 100+ years for the =
house.

=20

Robert wrote: Open-cell sprayed Icynene has almost the same embodied =
energy liability as the fiberglass, but it would result in a less =
energy-efficient house.

=20

Icynene brand open-cell foam has a very similar R-value per inch of =
thickness as fiberglass; however, the improved air tightness seen in =
most Icynene insulated homes results in greater heating efficiency not =
less.  We do generally see spray-in-place insulated homes testing =
tighter than fiberglass batt insulated homes and usually as tight as or =
tighter than cellulose insulated homes.

=20

Robert wrote: A similar house with 2x8 framing 24 oc (instead of 2x6 16 =
oc for the others), which uses no more total wood, and made very tight =
with the air-tight-drywall system (0.25 ACH, which is adequate in a =
non-toxic breathable house), would have 41% of the insulation embodied =
energy of the fiberglass (less than 5% of the urethane) and use 39% less =
heating energy.

=20

My comments here are that we can also build with 2"x 6" 24" oc and get =
better performance.  If we are to thicken the wall more we farther with =
a minimum R-10 exterior insulation wrap to eliminate thermal bridging, =
lower wetting potential, and enable drying to the inside by diffusion as =
we can now legitimately eliminate the 1.0 perm vapor retarder.  On top =
of that we can achieve a whole wall R-value in the R-24 range (with =
fiberglass batts, cellulose, or Icynene full cavity insulation, though =
wall performance will vary based on the air sealing properties of the =
insulation, its installation quality, and the effectiveness of the =
interior and exterior air barriers).  Houses don't breath.  They should =
be built tight and ventilated with equipment appropriate to maintain a =
consistent and appropriate air exchange (when occupied) to control =
moisture levels, provide adequate fresh air, and dilute indoor air =
contaminants of all sorts.

=20

I don't recommend spray-in-place foams as 1st choice for new =
construction because we generally have sufficient building assembly =
thickness available and cellulose is a preferred material for a =
multitude of reasons.  However, this is a right tool for right job =
issue.  Spray-in-place foam does a great job in insulating rim-band =
assemblies.  It can be very useful when a sloped ceiling constructed =
with scissors trusses exists that defies dense-packing with cellulose.  =
To my thinking spray-in-place foams are often the best tool with =
existing homes where wall thicknesses are small and thickening them is =
not feasible.  I rebuilt much of my old farmhouse from the outside and =
closed-cell foam was the only material that would effectively provide me =
with an R-19.5 insulation, an air barrier, and a vapor barrier in a 3" =
cavity.  It is also the only reasonable solution for insulating and air =
sealing the old field stone foundation.

=20

Jeff Gephart


Vermont ENERGY STAR Homes
  A service of Efficiency Vermont & Vermont Gas Systems

LEED for Homes
  A U.S. Green Building Council program

800-893-1997
802-767-3861 fax
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Robert Riversong=20
  To: [log in to unmask]
  Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 11:04 AM
  Subject: Re: [VGBNTALK] damp cellulose


        I believe that a plastic vapor barrier is an invitation to =
problems in almost any thermal envelope. It was promulgated by code when =
most houses were insulated with fiberglass and there was little =
attention to (even recognition of) the need for air-tightness.

        In addition to preventing a thermal assembly from breathing =
(diffusion drying to the inside), it also prevents a wonderfully =
hygroscopic material like cellulose from performing as a moisture buffer =
to stabilize indoor RH, and likely creates a static charge which draws =
negative ions out of the living environment.

        Now that it's been proven that, with reasonable indoor RH =
levels, diffusion contributes as little as 1% of the total moisture load =
in a thermal envelope during the heating season, and that stopping air =
movement is the key to preventing indoor-generated moisture problems in =
the structure, the air-tight drywall approach solves all the problems =
without creating more.

        Unfortunately, particularly for the sustainable building =
community, sprayed foam is being touted as a solution to moisture =
problems, when it (much like plastic VBs) creates its own set of =
negative consequences, since closed-cell foam has no moisture storage =
(buffering) ablity and open-cell foam can trap moisture and cause wood =
rot and mold. This, of course, in addition to the non-renewable resource =
depletion, embodied energy and carbon contribution issues.

        I have calculated that, compared to a 2000 SF reasonably =
well-sealed code-standard fiberglass-insulated house (0.5 ACH), a =
urethane sprayed house (with insulated gable walls and roof assembly =
rather than ceiling), even accounting for an increase in air-tightness =
(min. 0.35 ACH), will have an additional embodied energy cost that would =
require 23 years of operation to pay back.

        The same fiberglass-insulated house with 1" of exterior XPS and =
0.35 ACH would have an additional embodied energy payback of less than 1 =
year, in large part because it results in much greater energy savings =
than the typical sprayed urethane, mostly by eliminating thermal =
bridging.

        Open-cell sprayed Icynene has almost the same embodied energy =
liability as the fiberglass, but it would result in a less =
energy-efficient house.

        A similar house with 2x8 framing 24 oc (instead of 2x6 16 oc for =
the others), which uses no more total wood, and made very tight with the =
air-tight-drywall system (0.25 ACH, which is adequate in a non-toxic =
breathable house), would have 41% of the insulation embodied energy of =
the fiberglass (less than 5% of the urethane) and use 39% less heating =
energy.=20

        --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Tim Yandow <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

I have found that using a vapor barrier with wet spray is
an invitation to disaster though. The walls need to breathe.
Tim Yandow

=20

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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16762" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Hi=20
all,</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><?xml:namespace=20
prefix =3D o ns =3D "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"=20
/><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Robert =

has it pretty well nailed down in his comments; however, some =
clarifications=20
could be helpful to those&nbsp;following this discussion.</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>Robert wrote:&nbsp; I believe that a plastic vapor =
barrier is an=20
invitation to problems in almost any thermal envelope. It was =
promulgated by=20
code when most houses were insulated with fiberglass and there was =
little=20
attention to (even recognition of) the need for=20
air-tightness.<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'">Putting=20
a Vermont Residential Building Energy Standard (RBES/Code) required =
vapor=20
retarder with a perm rating of 1.0 or less on the warm-in-winter side of =

nonframed ceilings, walls, and floors can and should be accomplished =
without the=20
use of poly.&nbsp; An appropriate vapor retarder can be installed via =
the use of=20
the airtight drywall approach (mentioned later in Robert's =
email)&nbsp;coupled=20
with the use of&nbsp;vapor retarder or barrier paints.&nbsp; This is a =
better=20
approach as poly almost never serves as an effective air barrier and in =
fact=20
usually interferes with efforts to achieve an effective air =
barrier.&nbsp; As=20
Robert also correctly implies later in his email, diffusion (water vapor =

transport through permeable and semi-permeable building materials =
flowing from=20
areas of high vapor pressure to lower vapor pressure) is the minor vapor =

transport mechanism.&nbsp; Air leakage following heat transfer (hot to =
cold)=20
is&nbsp;the major water vapor transporter in most buildings.</SPAN><SPAN =

style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Robert=20
wrote:</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;=20
</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">The=20
same fiberglass-insulated house with 1" of exterior XPS and&nbsp;0.35 =
ACH would=20
have an additional embodied energy payback of less than 1 year, in large =
part=20
because it results in much greater energy savings than the typical =
sprayed=20
urethane, mostly by eliminating thermal =
bridging.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">If=20
the building assembly is such that "moisture or its freezing will not =
damage=20
building materials and/or insulation" (to quote RBES), as would be the =
case=20
with&nbsp;an exterior XPS wrap or some other exterior rigid foam =
insulation wrap=20
of sufficient R-value, the home would not require a warm-in-winter side =
vapor=20
retarder.&nbsp; I&nbsp;point out though that&nbsp;2" XPS (R-10) or other =

insulated sheathing materials at R-10 are needed in our climate zone to =
prevent=20
moisture or its freezing&nbsp;from damaging building materials and/or=20
insulation.&nbsp; At R-5, 1" XPS will allow&nbsp;condensing surfaces to =
exist=20
during sufficient portions of the year.&nbsp;&nbsp;With only an R-5 =
exterior=20
wrap,&nbsp;should warm moist interior air get into a wall cavity, it =
will find=20
surfaces below the dew point and&nbsp;condensation could then damage =
building=20
materials and/or insulation.</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>Robert wrote:&nbsp; I have calculated that, compared to =
a 2000 SF=20
reasonably well-sealed code-standard fiberglass-insulated house (0.5 =
ACH), a=20
urethane sprayed house (with insulated gable walls and roof assembly =
rather than=20
ceiling), even accounting for an increase in air-tightness (min. 0.35 =
ACH), will=20
have an additional embodied energy cost that would require 23 years of =
operation=20
to pay back.<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">The=20
ACH building tightness numbers Robert discusses refer to estimated =
"natural=20
air&nbsp;changes per hour" or ACHNatural (ACHNat).&nbsp; These numbers =
are=20
derived by testing the home with a blower door and then comparing the=20
leakage&nbsp;measured (CFM50 - cubic feet per minute at 50 pascals =
pressure=20
difference)&nbsp;to home's volume to estimate the air change rate that a =
house=20
leaks under "normal" conditions.&nbsp; This can only be roughly =
estimated and it=20
erroneously implies a specific air change rate as a constant.&nbsp; The =
air=20
change rate&nbsp;is not constant and varies widely over time because =
natural=20
ventilation is driven by temperature difference and pressure =
difference.&nbsp;=20
</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">I=20
admit culpability in training many VT builders to look at and gauge =
their=20
performance via the ACHNat results they achieved on their Home Energy =
Rating=20
certificates.&nbsp; However, it would be far better if we looked at our=20
buildings using air changes per hour at 50 pascals pressure difference=20
(ACH50).&nbsp; This eliminates the estimate that has to be made as to =
what's=20
"normal" operation and significantly improves the accuracy of this=20
measurement.&nbsp; To determine ACH50 the following formula is used:=20
</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'">CFM<SUB>50</SUB>=20
x 60 (minutes/hour) / house volume (cu. ft.) =3D ACH<SUB>50</SUB> (Air =
Changes per=20
Hour at 50 Pascals).<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; =
</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">The=20
CFM50 and the house volume are outputs on the new Index Home Energy =
Rating=20
certificates.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Target =
ACH50 results=20
should be &lt;=3D 5 ACH50.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; =
</SPAN>Better yet=20
would be to eliminate the house volume and compare our leakage against =
the=20
amount of exterior surface area but we are not able to present that in =
our=20
certificates.</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">On=20
the last roughly 3,600 homes we have blower door tested (all =
participants in=20
Efficiency Vermont programs), 73% are at or below .35 ACHNat.&nbsp; For =
that=20
same sample, 69% are at or below 5 ACH50.</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">How=20
long do want our houses to last?&nbsp; I wouldn't sneeze at a 23 year =
payback if=20
we're looking at an economic life of 100+ years for the =
house.</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>Robert wrote: Open-cell sprayed Icynene has almost the =
same=20
embodied energy liability as the fiberglass, but it would result in a =
less=20
energy-efficient house.<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New =
Roman'">Icynene=20
brand open-cell foam has a very similar R-value per inch of thickness as =

fiberglass; however, the improved air tightness seen in most Icynene =
insulated=20
homes results in greater heating efficiency not less.&nbsp; We do =
generally see=20
spray-in-place insulated homes testing&nbsp;tighter than fiberglass batt =

insulated homes and usually as tight as or tighter than cellulose =
insulated=20
homes.</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>Robert wrote: A similar house with 2x8 framing 24 oc =
(instead of=20
2x6 16 oc for the others), which uses no more total wood, and made very =
tight=20
with the air-tight-drywall system (0.25 ACH, which is adequate in a =
non-toxic=20
breathable house), would have 41% of the insulation embodied energy of =
the=20
fiberglass (less than 5% of the urethane) and use 39% less heating=20
energy.<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">My=20
comments here are that we can also build with 2"x 6" 24" oc and get =
better=20
performance.&nbsp; If we are to thicken the wall more we&nbsp;farther =
with a=20
minimum&nbsp;R-10 exterior insulation wrap to eliminate thermal =
bridging, lower=20
wetting potential, and enable drying to the inside by diffusion as we =
can now=20
legitimately eliminate the 1.0 perm vapor retarder.&nbsp; On top of that =
we can=20
achieve a whole wall R-value in the R-24 range (with fiberglass batts,=20
cellulose, or Icynene full cavity insulation, though wall performance =
will vary=20
based on the air sealing&nbsp;properties of the insulation, its =
installation=20
quality, and the effectiveness of the interior and exterior air =
barriers).&nbsp;=20
Houses don't breath.&nbsp; They should be built tight and ventilated =
with=20
equipment appropriate to&nbsp;maintain a consistent and appropriate air =
exchange=20
(when occupied) to control moisture levels, provide adequate fresh air, =
and=20
dilute indoor air contaminants of all sorts.</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">I=20
don't recommend spray-in-place foams as 1st choice for new construction =
because=20
we generally have sufficient&nbsp;building assembly thickness available =
and=20
cellulose is a preferred material for a multitude of reasons.&nbsp; =
However,=20
this is a right tool for right job issue.&nbsp; Spray-in-place foam does =
a great=20
job in insulating rim-band assemblies.&nbsp; It can be very useful when =
a sloped=20
ceiling constructed with scissors trusses exists that defies =
dense-packing with=20
cellulose.&nbsp; To my thinking spray-in-place foams are often the best =
tool=20
with existing homes where wall thicknesses are small and thickening them =
is not=20
feasible.&nbsp; I rebuilt much of my old farmhouse from the outside and=20
closed-cell foam was the only material that would effectively provide me =
with an=20
R-19.5 insulation, an air barrier, and a vapor barrier in a 3" =
cavity.&nbsp; It=20
is also the only reasonable solution for insulating and air sealing the =
old=20
field stone foundation.</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: =
normal"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT =
face=3DArial size=3D2>Jeff=20
Gephart</FONT></o:p></P></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Vermont ENERGY STAR =
Homes<BR>&nbsp; A=20
service of Efficiency Vermont &amp; Vermont Gas Systems</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>LEED for =
Homes<BR>&nbsp; A U.S. Green=20
Building Council program</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>800-893-1997<BR>802-767-3861=20
fax</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A [log in to unmask]
  href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Robert Riversong</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
  href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 12, 2008 =
11:04=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [VGBNTALK] damp=20
  cellulose</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
      <TD vAlign=3Dtop>
        <DIV>I believe that a plastic vapor barrier is an invitation to =
problems=20
        in almost any thermal envelope. It was promulgated by code when =
most=20
        houses were insulated with fiberglass and there was little =
attention to=20
        (even recognition of) the need for air-tightness.</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>In addition to preventing a thermal assembly from breathing =

        (diffusion drying to the inside), it also prevents a wonderfully =

        hygroscopic material like cellulose from performing as a =
moisture buffer=20
        to stabilize indoor RH, and likely creates a static charge which =
draws=20
        negative ions out of the living environment.</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>Now that it's been proven that, with reasonable indoor RH=20
        levels,&nbsp;diffusion contributes as little as 1% of the total =
moisture=20
        load in a thermal envelope during the heating season, and that =
stopping=20
        air movement is the key to preventing indoor-generated moisture =
problems=20
        in the structure, the air-tight drywall approach solves all the =
problems=20
        without creating more.</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>Unfortunately, particularly for the sustainable building =
community,=20
        sprayed foam is being touted as a solution to moisture problems, =
when it=20
        (much like plastic VBs) creates its own set of negative =
consequences,=20
        since closed-cell foam has no moisture storage (buffering) =
ablity and=20
        open-cell foam can trap moisture and cause wood rot and mold. =
This, of=20
        course, in addition to the non-renewable resource depletion, =
embodied=20
        energy and carbon contribution issues.</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>I have calculated that, compared to a 2000 SF reasonably=20
        well-sealed code-standard fiberglass-insulated house (0.5 ACH), =
a=20
        urethane sprayed house (with insulated gable walls and roof =
assembly=20
        rather than ceiling), even accounting for an increase in =
air-tightness=20
        (min. 0.35 ACH), will have an additional embodied energy cost =
that would=20
        require 23 years of operation to pay back.</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>The same fiberglass-insulated house with 1" of exterior XPS =

        and&nbsp;0.35 ACH would have an additional embodied energy =
payback of=20
        less than 1 year, in large part because it results in much =
greater=20
        energy savings than the typical sprayed urethane, mostly by =
eliminating=20
        thermal bridging.</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>Open-cell sprayed Icynene has almost the same embodied =
energy=20
        liability as the fiberglass, but it would result in a less=20
        energy-efficient house.</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>A similar house with 2x8 framing 24 oc (instead of 2x6 16 =
oc for=20
        the others), which uses no more total wood, and made very tight =
with the=20
        air-tight-drywall system (0.25 ACH, which is adequate in a =
non-toxic=20
        breathable house), would have 41% of the insulation embodied =
energy of=20
        the fiberglass (less than 5% of the urethane) and use 39% less =
heating=20
        energy.&nbsp;<BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 12/12/08, Tim Yandow=20
        <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
        <BLOCKQUOTE=20
        style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><PRE>I have found that using a vapor barrier =
with wet spray is
an invitation to disaster though. The walls need to breathe.
Tim Yandow

</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_007A_01C95C6A.845F59E0--
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Dec 2008 17:36:59 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Richard Faesy <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Richard Faesy <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: damp cellulose
Comments: To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0

An unvented space heater like a salamander dumps all of it's products of co=
mbustion into the space in which it is located.  This results in approximat=
ely 1 gallon of water vapor produced for every gallon of propane or kerosen=
e burned, assuming complete combustion (see http://www.propanesafety.com). =
 (If out of tune, CO is also dumped into the space).  This moisture ends up=
 somewhere in the building structure, like the insulation, or condenses out=
 when in contact with cold surfaces, like windows or plastic sheeting.  The=
 best approach for temporary space heat is to use something like a condensi=
ng gas furnace without attached ductwork and vent the flue gasses to outsid=
e.

Richard Faesy
Vermont Energy Investment Corp.
14 School Street
Bristol, Vermont  05443
P: 802-453-5100 x19
F: 802-453-5001
C: 802-355-9153


-----Original Message-----
From: VGBN Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tim Yando=
w
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 8:24 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [VGBNTALK] damp cellulose

Can someone explain to me how a Salamander can exacerbate moisture issues
during dry out? Is this a problem with dense pack as well? What would be a
better way to provide heat for drywall and painting after insulation
installation than space heaters?
Tim Yandow


>            The borates seemed to work fine in the cellulose - there was n=
o
> mold in the it. Moisture had condensed on the back of the
> Typar. Too much moisture in the application, extra moisture
> introduced by space heaters, interior walls left open too long
> meaning to help it dry, winter conditions promoting
> condensation, Typar creating issues? Any or all are options,
> but no one seems to be able to pinpoint one cause or whether it
> was a combination of all. NuWool was the brand and I understand
> it is the good stuff. The installation installer has since sold
> his business and vanished. The builder was one of the best in
> the business. Walls were left open for several months (now one
> reputable local installer is saying to close the walls in
> within a week). Salamanders were used because no one said not
> to. Probably a combination of a number of things except poor
> construction. Lots of people chipped in to help fix the
> problem, but it still cost the builder. Fortunately the
> homeowner was understanding, but until it is established
> exactly why it happened it is an experiment I don't intend to
> repeat.
>
>  Bill
>
>  Robert Riversong wrote:                                  --- On Thu,
> 12/11/08, William C Badger AIA  wrote:                    Interesting
> material. Has anyone in the group tried it and does anyone locally
> install it? We tried damp applied cellulose in a new house a couple of
> years ago with disastrous results. Black mold grew on the outside of the
> plywood sheathing and the back side of the Typar house wrap. The siding
> had to be stripped off and things dried out. A series of unusual
> circumstances that created a perfect storm?
> The mold on your plywood sheathing may have been encouraged by poor
> installation practice or too quick a close-in of the walls, but likely
> had other contributing factors.                   Kiln-dried lumber is
> milled at 19% moisture content by weight and it takes a new house a full
> year to completely dry to a stable level. Modern cellulose installation
> techniques require very little added water, and the walls should always
> be left open from 1 to 3 days following application.
> Running salamander-type temporary construction heaters only puts more
> moisture into the indoor environment. Cellulose has been successfully
> installed in northern climates without a vapor barrier (as long as there
> is good air sealing), and applying a plastic vapor barrier and closing in
> the wall before dry-out will almost certainly create a mold problem.
>              The brand of cellulose, also, makes a big difference. Only
> those, like National Fiber, who use EPA-certified fungicides can
> guarantee no mold problems.                   If wall plate penetrations
> in the top and bottom plates are not properly sealed, this could create a
> significant source of moisture in the wall cavities.                   My
> guess is that you had a "perfect storm" caused perhaps by poor quality
> materials, poor installation technique, and inappropriate construction
> practices. Don't blame the cellulose - there is no better insulation on
> the market.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:51:30 -0800
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: combustion moisture
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--- On Fri, 12/12/08, Richard Faesy <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
An unvented space heater like a salamander dumps all of it's products of
combustion into the space in which it is located.  This results in approximately
1 gallon of water vapor produced for every gallon of propane or kerosene burned,
assuming complete combustion 
Years ago, I was working on some modular condominiums being erected at Mt. Snow. Each unit had a large propane construction heater in the basement. I had to go up through the attic hatch for some reason in one of the units and - to my surprise - it was snowing in the attic!
--0-853882086-1229122290=:84860
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>--- On <B>Fri, 12/12/08, Richard Faesy <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><PRE>An unvented space heater like a salamander dumps all of it's products of
combustion into the space in which it is located.  This results in approximately
1 gallon of water vapor produced for every gallon of propane or kerosene burned,
assuming complete combustion </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>Years ago, I was working on some modular condominiums being erected at Mt. Snow. Each unit had a large propane construction heater in the basement. I had to go up through the attic hatch for some reason in one of the units and - to my surprise - it was snowing in the attic!</DIV></td></tr></table>
--0-853882086-1229122290=:84860--
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:26:54 -0800
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: breathability
In-Reply-To:  <DE0394E070D4453E9901F28BFCD05BBE@jeff60bd199b59>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--- On Fri, 12/12/08, Jeff Gephart <[log in to unmask]> wrote:





Houses don't breath.=A0 They should be built tight and ventilated with equi=
pment appropriate to=A0maintain a consistent and appropriate air exchange (=
when occupied) to control moisture levels, provide adequate fresh air, and =
dilute indoor air contaminants of all sorts.
=A0
I'll have to disagree with Jeff on this, though the disagreement might be b=
ased on the ambiguous meaning of "breathe".
=A0
A tightly-built house will not "breathe" air sufficiently without mechanica=
l ventilation, but it can (and I would say should) "breathe" moisture, just=
 like our skin and our clothing.
=A0
The typical family of four will put approximately 2.5 gallons of moisture p=
er day into the indoor environment through the normal requirements of livin=
g (cooking, bathing, washing, breathing, plants).
=A0
A 2000 SF 2-storey house, with a thermal envelope (walls and ceiling) that =
are relatively permeable to moisture diffusion (5 perms avg) will diffuse a=
pproximately 1.25 gallons of water per day at 70=B0F/40%RH indoor and 20=B0=
F/75%RH outdoor. This will eliminate half of the daily moisture production,=
 and a modest air exchange rate will easily eliminate the remainder.
=A0
In addition, a building with high moisture-storage capacity materials (gene=
rally natural materials) will buffer the daily and seasonal variations in R=
H (just as thermal mass will buffer temperature swings). A wood-frame house=
 with wood sheathing can safely store 50 gallons of water. Fill those walls=
 and ceiling=A0with cellulose and it can store as much as 200 gallons of mo=
isture reversibly, but only if the thermal envelope is not vapor=A0sealed t=
o the inside.
=A0
Proponents of natural building (e.g. straw-bale, cob, plaster) understand t=
he value of moisture breathability, storage and buffering. The rest of us w=
ould do well to rediscover it.
=A0
- Robert
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>--- On <B>Fri, 12/12/08, Jeff Gephart <I=
>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid">
<DIV id=3Dyiv2063213265>
<STYLE></STYLE>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; LINE-HEIGHT: normal"><SP=
AN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial', 'sans-serif=
'">Houses don't breath.&nbsp; They should be built tight and ventilated wit=
h equipment appropriate to&nbsp;maintain a consistent and appropriate air e=
xchange (when occupied) to control moisture levels, provide adequate fresh =
air, and dilute indoor air contaminants of all sorts.</SPAN></DIV></FONT></=
DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I'll have to disagree with Jeff on this, though the disagreement might=
 be based on the ambiguous meaning of "breathe".</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>A tightly-built house will not "breathe" air sufficiently without mech=
anical ventilation, but it can (and I would say should) "breathe" moisture,=
 just like our skin and our clothing.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The typical family of four will put approximately 2.5 gallons of moist=
ure per day into the indoor environment through the normal requirements of =
living (cooking, bathing, washing, breathing, plants).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>A 2000 SF 2-storey house, with a thermal envelope (walls and ceiling) =
that are relatively permeable to moisture diffusion (5 perms avg) will diff=
use approximately 1.25 gallons of water per day at 70=B0F/40%RH indoor and =
20=B0F/75%RH outdoor. This will eliminate half of the daily moisture produc=
tion, and a modest air exchange rate will easily eliminate the remainder.</=
DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In addition, a building with high moisture-storage capacity materials =
(generally natural materials) will buffer the daily and seasonal variations=
 in RH (just as thermal mass will buffer temperature swings). A wood-frame =
house with wood sheathing can safely store 50 gallons of water. Fill those =
walls and ceiling&nbsp;with cellulose and it can store as much as 200 gallo=
ns of moisture reversibly, but only if the thermal envelope is not vapor&nb=
sp;sealed to the inside.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Proponents of natural building (e.g. straw-bale, cob, plaster) underst=
and the value of moisture breathability, storage and buffering. The rest of=
 us would do well to rediscover it.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>- Robert<FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></DIV></FONT></td>=
</tr></table>
--0-454165305-1229124414=:38163--
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Dec 2008 22:12:56 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: breathability
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3311964778_844031"

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3311964778_844031
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Well said Robert,
  The =B3breathing wall=B2 concept is a bit of a misnomer, but the idea behind
it as you  point out is real.
   Natural building methods rely on this concept in a way that does not nee=
d
plastic barriers(vapor barriers).  And in fact can only work without them. =
I
think over time we will all being using less poly sheeting.
    Building biologists have this idea that buildings can be thought of mor=
e
as extentions of our bodies or skin rather than machines.  And that the
solution to bad indoor air is healthy, nontoxic materials rather than
mechanical ventilation.

Ben=20

On 12/12/08 6:26 PM, "Robert Riversong" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Jeff Gephart <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> Houses don't breath.  They should be built tight and ventilated with
>> equipment appropriate to maintain a consistent and appropriate air excha=
nge
>> (when occupied) to control moisture levels, provide adequate fresh air, =
and
>> dilute indoor air contaminants of all sorts.
> =20
> I'll have to disagree with Jeff on this, though the disagreement might be
> based on the ambiguous meaning of "breathe".
> =20
> A tightly-built house will not "breathe" air sufficiently without mechani=
cal
> ventilation, but it can (and I would say should) "breathe" moisture, just=
 like
> our skin and our clothing.
> =20
> The typical family of four will put approximately 2.5 gallons of moisture=
 per
> day into the indoor environment through the normal requirements of living
> (cooking, bathing, washing, breathing, plants).
> =20
> A 2000 SF 2-storey house, with a thermal envelope (walls and ceiling) tha=
t are
> relatively permeable to moisture diffusion (5 perms avg) will diffuse
> approximately 1.25 gallons of water per day at 70=B0F/40%RH indoor and
> 20=B0F/75%RH outdoor. This will eliminate half of the daily moisture produc=
tion,
> and a modest air exchange rate will easily eliminate the remainder.
> =20
> In addition, a building with high moisture-storage capacity materials
> (generally natural materials) will buffer the daily and seasonal variatio=
ns in
> RH (just as thermal mass will buffer temperature swings). A wood-frame ho=
use
> with wood sheathing can safely store 50 gallons of water. Fill those wall=
s and
> ceiling with cellulose and it can store as much as 200 gallons of moistur=
e
> reversibly, but only if the thermal envelope is not vapor sealed to the
> inside.
> =20
> Proponents of natural building (e.g. straw-bale, cob, plaster) understand=
 the
> value of moisture breathability, storage and buffering. The rest of us wo=
uld
> do well to rediscover it.
> =20
> - Robert
>=20


Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
Benjamin Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and Nature
802.454.1167




--B_3311964778_844031
Content-type: text/html;
	charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: breathability</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'>Well =
said Robert,<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;The &#8220;breathing wall&#8221; concept is a bit of a misnomer=
, but the idea behind it as you &nbsp;point out is real.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Natural building methods rely on this concept in a way th=
at does not need plastic barriers(vapor barriers). &nbsp;And in fact can onl=
y work without them. I think over time we will all being using less poly she=
eting. &nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Building biologists have this idea that buildings c=
an be thought of more as extentions of our bodies or skin rather than machin=
es. &nbsp;And that the solution to bad indoor air is healthy, nontoxic mater=
ials rather than mechanical ventilation.<BR>
<BR>
Ben <BR>
<BR>
On 12/12/08 6:26 PM, &quot;Robert Riversong&quot; &lt;housewright@PONDS-EDG=
E.NET&gt; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYL=
E=3D'font-size:12.0px'>--- On <B>Fri, 12/12/08, Jeff Gephart <I>&lt;vtwise@tog=
ether.net&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><FONT COLO=
R=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:13.0px'>Houses don't breat=
h. &nbsp;They should be built tight and ventilated with equipment appropriat=
e to maintain a consistent and appropriate air exchange (when occupied) to c=
ontrol moisture levels, provide adequate fresh air, and dilute indoor air co=
ntaminants of all sorts.<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Ar=
ial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
I'll have to disagree with Jeff on this, though the disagreement might be b=
ased on the ambiguous meaning of &quot;breathe&quot;.<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
A tightly-built house will not &quot;breathe&quot; air sufficiently without=
 mechanical ventilation, but it can (and I would say should) &quot;breathe&q=
uot; moisture, just like our skin and our clothing.<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
The typical family of four will put approximately 2.5 gallons of moisture p=
er day into the indoor environment through the normal requirements of living=
 (cooking, bathing, washing, breathing, plants).<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
A 2000 SF 2-storey house, with a thermal envelope (walls and ceiling) that =
are relatively permeable to moisture diffusion (5 perms avg) will diffuse ap=
proximately 1.25 gallons of water per day at 70&deg;F/40%RH indoor and 20&de=
g;F/75%RH outdoor. This will eliminate half of the daily moisture production=
, and a modest air exchange rate will easily eliminate the remainder.<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
In addition, a building with high moisture-storage capacity materials (gene=
rally natural materials) will buffer the daily and seasonal variations in RH=
 (just as thermal mass will buffer temperature swings). A wood-frame house w=
ith wood sheathing can safely store 50 gallons of water. Fill those walls an=
d ceiling with cellulose and it can store as much as 200 gallons of moisture=
 reversibly, but only if the thermal envelope is not vapor sealed to the ins=
ide.<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
Proponents of natural building (e.g. straw-bale, cob, plaster) understand t=
he value of moisture breathability, storage and buffering. The rest of us wo=
uld do well to rediscover it.<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
- Robert<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><FONT FACE=3D"Hoefler Text, Times New Roman"><SP=
AN STYLE=3D'font-size:14.0px'><I>Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve=
 neither.<BR>
</I>Benjamin Franklin<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0px'>__________________________________________________________<B=
R>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><SPAN =
STYLE=3D'font-size:14.0px'>Ben Graham<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:14.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Hoefler Text, Time=
s New Roman">www.<B>naturaldesignbuild</B>.us <BR>
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Light"><B>Integrating Culture and Na=
ture</B></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Hoefler Text, Times New Roman">802.454.1167<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0px'><BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--B_3311964778_844031--
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:38:43 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              William C Badger AIA <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         William C Badger AIA <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: breathability
Comments: To: Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Walls are a sandwich of materials that all have to work together, but I
have not heard anything said about exterior paint. In new construction
clapboard siding should be back primed and the idea of providing a
venting plane behind the siding is promising, but when renovating old
buildings those are usually not options. The standard rule in
preservation was/is to not insulate the exterior walls if there is no
interior vapor barrier. Insulate the attic floor and tighten up the
building, but spraying in loose cellulose was an invitation to loosing
the paint off the outside. I think a lot of vinyl siding was sold to
fix paint problems caused by blown in insulation. Now we have the next
generation of insulation materials and breathing walls sound like an
interesting concept. Vapor barriers and interior surfaces are being
discussed, but what about the exterior? Are we going to be condensing
the wall's breath somewhere it will create problems?<br>
<br>
Bill<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Ben Graham wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:[log in to unmask]"
 type="cite">
  <title>Re: breathability</title>
  <font face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="font-size: 12px;">Well
said Robert,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;The &#8220;breathing wall&#8221; concept is a bit of a misnomer, but the idea
behind it as you &nbsp;point out is real.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Natural building methods rely on this concept in a way that does not
need plastic barriers(vapor barriers). &nbsp;And in fact can only work
without them. I think over time we will all being using less poly
sheeting. &nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Building biologists have this idea that buildings can be thought of
more as extentions of our bodies or skin rather than machines. &nbsp;And
that the solution to bad indoor air is healthy, nontoxic materials
rather than mechanical ventilation.<br>
  <br>
Ben <br>
  <br>
On 12/12/08 6:26 PM, "Robert Riversong"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</a> wrote:<br>
  <br>
  </span></font>
  <blockquote><font face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span
 style="font-size: 12px;">--- On <b>Fri, 12/12/08, Jeff Gephart <i><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</a></i></b>
wrote:<br>
    </span></font>
    <blockquote><font face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><font
 color="#0000ff"><font size="4"><span style="font-size: 13px;">Houses
don't breath. &nbsp;They should be built tight and ventilated with equipment
appropriate to maintain a consistent and appropriate air exchange (when
occupied) to control moisture levels, provide adequate fresh air, and
dilute indoor air contaminants of all sorts.<br>
      </span></font></font></font></blockquote>
    <font face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span
 style="font-size: 12px;"> <br>
I'll have to disagree with Jeff on this, though the disagreement might
be based on the ambiguous meaning of "breathe".<br>
&nbsp;<br>
A tightly-built house will not "breathe" air sufficiently without
mechanical ventilation, but it can (and I would say should) "breathe"
moisture, just like our skin and our clothing.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
The typical family of four will put approximately 2.5 gallons of
moisture per day into the indoor environment through the normal
requirements of living (cooking, bathing, washing, breathing, plants).<br>
&nbsp;<br>
A 2000 SF 2-storey house, with a thermal envelope (walls and ceiling)
that are relatively permeable to moisture diffusion (5 perms avg) will
diffuse approximately 1.25 gallons of water per day at 70&deg;F/40%RH
indoor and 20&deg;F/75%RH outdoor. This will eliminate half of the daily
moisture production, and a modest air exchange rate will easily
eliminate the remainder.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
In addition, a building with high moisture-storage capacity materials
(generally natural materials) will buffer the daily and seasonal
variations in RH (just as thermal mass will buffer temperature swings).
A wood-frame house with wood sheathing can safely store 50 gallons of
water. Fill those walls and ceiling with cellulose and it can store as
much as 200 gallons of moisture reversibly, but only if the thermal
envelope is not vapor sealed to the inside.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Proponents of natural building (e.g. straw-bale, cob, plaster)
understand the value of moisture breathability, storage and buffering.
The rest of us would do well to rediscover it.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
- Robert<br>
    <br>
    </span></font></blockquote>
  <font face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="font-size: 12px;"><br>
  <br>
  </span></font><font size="4"><font
 face="Hoefler Text, Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 14px;"><i>Those
who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.<br>
  </i>Benjamin Franklin<br>
  </span></font></font><font face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span
 style="font-size: 12px;">__________________________________________________________<br>
  <br>
  </span></font><font size="4"><font face="Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><span
 style="font-size: 14px;">Ben Graham<br>
  </span></font><span style="font-size: 14px;"><font
 face="Hoefler Text, Times New Roman">www.<b>naturaldesignbuild</b>.us <br>
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting<br>
  </font><font face="Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><br>
  </font><font face="Humana Serif ITC TT-Light"><b>Integrating Culture
and Nature</b></font><font face="Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"> <br>
  </font><font face="Hoefler Text, Times New Roman">802.454.1167<br>
  </font></span></font><font face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span
 style="font-size: 12px;"><br>
  <br>
  </span></font>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:17:45 -0800
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: breathability
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--- On Mon, 12/15/08, William C Badger AIA <[log in to unmask]
M> wrote:


Walls are a sandwich of materials that all have to work together, but I hav=
e not heard anything said about exterior paint. In new construction clapboa=
rd siding should be back primed and the idea of providing a venting plane b=
ehind the siding is promising,=20
=A0
Back-priming will significantly prolong the life of the exterior finish (an=
d probably the siding) because it reduces the permeability of the wood sidi=
ng on both flanks. But ideally, both back-priming and front-face finish are=
 breathable, unless a pressure-equalized and well-drained and ventilated ra=
inscreen=A0is used to eliminate pressure differentials across the siding.
=A0
I think that exterior paint is a bad idea, as it creates a surface film tha=
t is less permeable and will eventually fail and require scraping (or worse=
, high--pressure washing) before refinish. Solid color water-based stains h=
ave enough UV resistance to protect the wood, are breatheable, and don't ha=
ve a survace film which requires excessive maintenance.
=A0
...but when renovating old buildings those are usually not options. The sta=
ndard rule in preservation was/is to not insulate the exterior walls if the=
re is no interior vapor barrier. Insulate the attic floor and tighten up th=
e building, but spraying in loose cellulose was an invitation to loosing th=
e paint off the outside. I think a lot of vinyl siding was sold to fix pain=
t problems caused by blown in insulation.=20
=A0
Don't blame the insulation. In fact, cellulose insulation - because it is s=
o hygroscopic and can safetly store 30% of its weight in water reversibly -=
 is far less likely to contribute to in-wall moisture problems. While it's =
true that insulating a formerly open wall cavity (that could easily dry by =
convection and in which inside sheathing temperatures are close to room tem=
peratures) could lead to condensation and possible paint peeling problems, =
the source of the moisture is unlikely to be vapor diffusion from lack of v=
apor barrier.
=A0
A latex vapor barrier primer can be used on the interior (in addition to ca=
reful air sealing and caulking) to reduce the small amount of moiture contr=
ibuted by diffusion in a house with poor humidity control (unvented cooksto=
ves, unvented dryers, no bath exhaust fans, etc).
=A0
Diffusion contributes as little as 1% of the thermal envelope moisture load=
, while air transport contributes up to 99%. In an old house, the moisture =
source could be a wet basement or crawlspace, unsealed utility penetrations=
 in the wall plates (or balloon framing), roof leaks, ice dams, plumbing le=
aks or saturated walls next to showers without surround.
=A0
Now we have the next generation of insulation materials and breathing walls=
 sound like an interesting concept. Vapor barriers and interior surfaces ar=
e being discussed, but what about the exterior? Are we going to be condensi=
ng the wall's breath somewhere it will create problems?

A rule of thumb that has held me in good stead for 30 years is to keep the =
exterior skin of a wall at least 5 times as vapor permeable as the interior=
 skin. On an old masonry-clad building, this shouldn't be a problem (as lon=
g as proper air-gap and weep-hole detailing was done), and masonry has a hi=
gh tolerance and storage capacity for moisture.=20
=A0
However, multiple layers of oil-based paints, particularly with lead or zin=
c oxide, will so effectively seal the exterior that only peeling will relie=
ve outwardly-driven moisture. In such a case, complete paint removal and re=
finishing would be sensible.
--0-1070388835-1229365065=:11951
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV id=yiv1985117584><BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 12/15/08, William C Badger AIA <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">
<DIV>Walls are a sandwich of materials that all have to work together, but I have not heard anything said about exterior paint. In new construction clapboard siding should be back primed and the idea of providing a venting plane behind the siding is promising, </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#007f40>Back-priming will significantly prolong the life of the exterior finish (and probably the siding) because it reduces the permeability of the wood siding on both flanks. But ideally, both back-priming and front-face finish are breathable, unless a pressure-equalized and well-drained and ventilated rainscreen&nbsp;is used to eliminate pressure differentials across the siding.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#007f40></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#007f40>I think that exterior paint is a bad idea, as it creates a surface film that is less permeable and will eventually fail and require scraping (or worse, high--pressure washing) before refinish. Solid color water-based stains have enough UV resistance to protect the wood, are breatheable, and don't have a survace film which requires excessive maintenance.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>...but when renovating old buildings those are usually not options. The standard rule in preservation was/is to not insulate the exterior walls if there is no interior vapor barrier. Insulate the attic floor and tighten up the building, but spraying in loose cellulose was an invitation to loosing the paint off the outside. I think a lot of vinyl siding was sold to fix paint problems caused by blown in insulation. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#007f40>Don't blame the insulation. In fact, cellulose insulation - because it is so hygroscopic and can safetly store 30% of its weight in water reversibly - is far less likely to contribute to in-wall moisture problems. While it's true that insulating a formerly open wall cavity (that could easily dry by convection and in which inside sheathing temperatures are close to room temperatures) could lead to condensation and possible paint peeling problems, the source of the moisture is unlikely to be vapor diffusion from lack of vapor barrier.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#007f40></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#007f40>A latex vapor barrier primer can be used on the interior (in addition to careful air sealing and caulking) to reduce the small amount of moiture contributed by diffusion in a house with poor humidity control (unvented cookstoves, unvented dryers, no bath exhaust fans, etc).</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#007f40></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#007f40>Diffusion contributes as little as 1% of the thermal envelope moisture load, while air transport contributes up to 99%. In an old house, the moisture source could be a wet basement or crawlspace, unsealed utility penetrations in the wall plates (or balloon framing), roof leaks, ice dams, plumbing leaks or saturated walls next to showers without surround.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Now we have the next generation of insulation materials and breathing walls sound like an interesting concept. Vapor barriers and interior surfaces are being discussed, but what about the exterior? Are we going to be condensing the wall's breath somewhere it will create problems?<BR><BR><STRONG><FONT color=#007f40>A rule of thumb that has held me in good stead for 30 years is to keep the exterior skin of a wall at least 5 times as vapor permeable as the interior skin. On an old masonry-clad building, this shouldn't be a problem (as long as proper air-gap and weep-hole detailing was done), and masonry has a high tolerance and storage capacity for moisture. </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#007f40></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#007f40>However, multiple layers of oil-based paints, particularly with lead or zinc oxide, will so effectively seal the exterior that only peeling will relieve outwardly-driven moisture. In such a case, complete paint removal and refinishing would be sensible.</FONT></STRONG></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></td></tr></table>
--0-1070388835-1229365065=:11951--
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 2008 14:36:25 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Brad Denny <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Brad Denny <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: damp cellulose
Comments: To: Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01C95EC2.8200D9D0"

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I am late tuning in to this interesting discussion.  How is "air-tight =
drywall" different from conventional drywall?
Brad Denny
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Robert Riversong=20
  To: [log in to unmask]
  Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 11:04 AM
  Subject: Re: damp cellulose


        I believe that a plastic vapor barrier is an invitation to =
problems in almost any thermal envelope. It was promulgated by code when =
most houses were insulated with fiberglass and there was little =
attention to (even recognition of) the need for air-tightness.

        In addition to preventing a thermal assembly from breathing =
(diffusion drying to the inside), it also prevents a wonderfully =
hygroscopic material like cellulose from performing as a moisture buffer =
to stabilize indoor RH, and likely creates a static charge which draws =
negative ions out of the living environment.

        Now that it's been proven that, with reasonable indoor RH =
levels, diffusion contributes as little as 1% of the total moisture load =
in a thermal envelope during the heating season, and that stopping air =
movement is the key to preventing indoor-generated moisture problems in =
the structure, the air-tight drywall approach solves all the problems =
without creating more.

        Unfortunately, particularly for the sustainable building =
community, sprayed foam is being touted as a solution to moisture =
problems, when it (much like plastic VBs) creates its own set of =
negative consequences, since closed-cell foam has no moisture storage =
(buffering) ablity and open-cell foam can trap moisture and cause wood =
rot and mold. This, of course, in addition to the non-renewable resource =
depletion, embodied energy and carbon contribution issues.

        I have calculated that, compared to a 2000 SF reasonably =
well-sealed code-standard fiberglass-insulated house (0.5 ACH), a =
urethane sprayed house (with insulated gable walls and roof assembly =
rather than ceiling), even accounting for an increase in air-tightness =
(min. 0.35 ACH), will have an additional embodied energy cost that would =
require 23 years of operation to pay back.

        The same fiberglass-insulated house with 1" of exterior XPS and =
0.35 ACH would have an additional embodied energy payback of less than 1 =
year, in large part because it results in much greater energy savings =
than the typical sprayed urethane, mostly by eliminating thermal =
bridging.

        Open-cell sprayed Icynene has almost the same embodied energy =
liability as the fiberglass, but it would result in a less =
energy-efficient house.

        A similar house with 2x8 framing 24 oc (instead of 2x6 16 oc for =
the others), which uses no more total wood, and made very tight with the =
air-tight-drywall system (0.25 ACH, which is adequate in a non-toxic =
breathable house), would have 41% of the insulation embodied energy of =
the fiberglass (less than 5% of the urethane) and use 39% less heating =
energy.=20

        --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Tim Yandow <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

I have found that using a vapor barrier with wet spray is
an invitation to disaster though. The walls need to breathe.
Tim Yandow

=20

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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16762" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am late tuning in to this interesting =

discussion.&nbsp; How is "air-tight drywall" different from conventional =

drywall?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Brad Denny</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A [log in to unmask]
  href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Robert Riversong</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
  href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 12, 2008 =
11:04=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: damp =
cellulose</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
      <TD vAlign=3Dtop>
        <DIV>I believe that a plastic vapor barrier is an invitation to =
problems=20
        in almost any thermal envelope. It was promulgated by code when =
most=20
        houses were insulated with fiberglass and there was little =
attention to=20
        (even recognition of) the need for air-tightness.</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>In addition to preventing a thermal assembly from breathing =

        (diffusion drying to the inside), it also prevents a wonderfully =

        hygroscopic material like cellulose from performing as a =
moisture buffer=20
        to stabilize indoor RH, and likely creates a static charge which =
draws=20
        negative ions out of the living environment.</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>Now that it's been proven that, with reasonable indoor RH=20
        levels,&nbsp;diffusion contributes as little as 1% of the total =
moisture=20
        load in a thermal envelope during the heating season, and that =
stopping=20
        air movement is the key to preventing indoor-generated moisture =
problems=20
        in the structure, the air-tight drywall approach solves all the =
problems=20
        without creating more.</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>Unfortunately, particularly for the sustainable building =
community,=20
        sprayed foam is being touted as a solution to moisture problems, =
when it=20
        (much like plastic VBs) creates its own set of negative =
consequences,=20
        since closed-cell foam has no moisture storage (buffering) =
ablity and=20
        open-cell foam can trap moisture and cause wood rot and mold. =
This, of=20
        course, in addition to the non-renewable resource depletion, =
embodied=20
        energy and carbon contribution issues.</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>I have calculated that, compared to a 2000 SF reasonably=20
        well-sealed code-standard fiberglass-insulated house (0.5 ACH), =
a=20
        urethane sprayed house (with insulated gable walls and roof =
assembly=20
        rather than ceiling), even accounting for an increase in =
air-tightness=20
        (min. 0.35 ACH), will have an additional embodied energy cost =
that would=20
        require 23 years of operation to pay back.</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>The same fiberglass-insulated house with 1" of exterior XPS =

        and&nbsp;0.35 ACH would have an additional embodied energy =
payback of=20
        less than 1 year, in large part because it results in much =
greater=20
        energy savings than the typical sprayed urethane, mostly by =
eliminating=20
        thermal bridging.</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>Open-cell sprayed Icynene has almost the same embodied =
energy=20
        liability as the fiberglass, but it would result in a less=20
        energy-efficient house.</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>A similar house with 2x8 framing 24 oc (instead of 2x6 16 =
oc for=20
        the others), which uses no more total wood, and made very tight =
with the=20
        air-tight-drywall system (0.25 ACH, which is adequate in a =
non-toxic=20
        breathable house), would have 41% of the insulation embodied =
energy of=20
        the fiberglass (less than 5% of the urethane) and use 39% less =
heating=20
        energy.&nbsp;<BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 12/12/08, Tim Yandow=20
        <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
        <BLOCKQUOTE=20
        style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><PRE>I have found that using a vapor barrier =
with wet spray is
an invitation to disaster though. The walls need to breathe.
Tim Yandow

</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C95EC2.8200D9D0--
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 2008 15:08:42 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Jeff Gephart <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Jeff Gephart <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: damp cellulose
Comments: To: Brad Denny <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Brad,
It is essentially gluing the drywall to the building's exterior frame =
and sealing all penetrations.  At corners we only attach to one side of =
the frame so framing lumber shrinkage doesn't crack the drywall in the =
corners.  As a backer for the non-mechanically fastened side of the =
corner drywall clips are often used (Simpson Strong-Tie # DS or USP =
Lumber Connectors # DC1).  If you review the two pdf's at the links =
below written by Joe Lstiburek you will get a pretty good idea about how =
the airtight drywall approach works.

Air Barriers - =
www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0403-air-barriers/?topic=3D/=
doctypes/researchreport
Drywall, Wood & Truss Uplift - =
www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0107-drywall-wood-and-truss-=
uplift/

Kind regards,
Jeff Gephart

Vermont ENERGY STAR Homes
  A service of Efficiency Vermont & Vermont Gas Systems

LEED for Homes
  A U.S. Green Building Council program

800-893-1997
802-767-3861 fax
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Brad Denny=20
  To: [log in to unmask]
  Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 2:36 PM
  Subject: Re: [VGBNTALK] damp cellulose


  I am late tuning in to this interesting discussion.  How is "air-tight =
drywall" different from conventional drywall?
  Brad Denny
    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Robert Riversong=20
    To: [log in to unmask]
    Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 11:04 AM
    Subject: Re: damp cellulose


          I believe that a plastic vapor barrier is an invitation to =
problems in almost any thermal envelope. It was promulgated by code when =
most houses were insulated with fiberglass and there was little =
attention to (even recognition of) the need for air-tightness.

          In addition to preventing a thermal assembly from breathing =
(diffusion drying to the inside), it also prevents a wonderfully =
hygroscopic material like cellulose from performing as a moisture buffer =
to stabilize indoor RH, and likely creates a static charge which draws =
negative ions out of the living environment.

          Now that it's been proven that, with reasonable indoor RH =
levels, diffusion contributes as little as 1% of the total moisture load =
in a thermal envelope during the heating season, and that stopping air =
movement is the key to preventing indoor-generated moisture problems in =
the structure, the air-tight drywall approach solves all the problems =
without creating more.

          Unfortunately, particularly for the sustainable building =
community, sprayed foam is being touted as a solution to moisture =
problems, when it (much like plastic VBs) creates its own set of =
negative consequences, since closed-cell foam has no moisture storage =
(buffering) ablity and open-cell foam can trap moisture and cause wood =
rot and mold. This, of course, in addition to the non-renewable resource =
depletion, embodied energy and carbon contribution issues.

          I have calculated that, compared to a 2000 SF reasonably =
well-sealed code-standard fiberglass-insulated house (0.5 ACH), a =
urethane sprayed house (with insulated gable walls and roof assembly =
rather than ceiling), even accounting for an increase in air-tightness =
(min. 0.35 ACH), will have an additional embodied energy cost that would =
require 23 years of operation to pay back.

          The same fiberglass-insulated house with 1" of exterior XPS =
and 0.35 ACH would have an additional embodied energy payback of less =
than 1 year, in large part because it results in much greater energy =
savings than the typical sprayed urethane, mostly by eliminating thermal =
bridging.

          Open-cell sprayed Icynene has almost the same embodied energy =
liability as the fiberglass, but it would result in a less =
energy-efficient house.

          A similar house with 2x8 framing 24 oc (instead of 2x6 16 oc =
for the others), which uses no more total wood, and made very tight with =
the air-tight-drywall system (0.25 ACH, which is adequate in a non-toxic =
breathable house), would have 41% of the insulation embodied energy of =
the fiberglass (less than 5% of the urethane) and use 39% less heating =
energy.=20

          --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Tim Yandow <[log in to unmask]> =
wrote:

I have found that using a vapor barrier with wet spray is
an invitation to disaster though. The walls need to breathe.
Tim Yandow

=20

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Brad,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It is essentially gluing the drywall to =
the=20
building's exterior frame and sealing all penetrations.&nbsp; At corners =
we only=20
attach to one side of the frame so framing lumber shrinkage doesn't =
crack the=20
drywall in the corners.&nbsp; As a backer for the non-mechanically =
fastened side=20
of the corner drywall clips are often used (<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times =
New Roman'">Simpson=20
Strong-Tie # DS </SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times =
New Roman'">or</SPAN><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;</FONT><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times =
New Roman'">USP=20
Lumber Connectors # DC1).</SPAN>&nbsp; If you review the two pdf's at =
the links=20
below written by Joe Lstiburek you will get a pretty good idea about how =
the=20
airtight drywall approach works.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Air Barriers - <A=20
href=3D"http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0403-air-barr=
iers/?topic=3D/doctypes/researchreport">www.buildingscience.com/documents=
/reports/rr-0403-air-barriers/?topic=3D/doctypes/researchreport</A></FONT=
></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Drywall, Wood &amp; Truss Uplift - <A=20
href=3D"http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0107-drywall-=
wood-and-truss-uplift/">www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0107=
-drywall-wood-and-truss-uplift/</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kind regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jeff Gephart</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Vermont ENERGY STAR Homes<BR>&nbsp; A service of Efficiency Vermont =
&amp;=20
Vermont Gas Systems</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>LEED for Homes<BR>&nbsp; A U.S. Green Building Council =
program</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>800-893-1997<BR>802-767-3861 fax</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A [log in to unmask]
  href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Brad Denny</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
  href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 15, 2008 =
2:36=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [VGBNTALK] damp=20
  cellulose</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am late tuning in to this =
interesting=20
  discussion.&nbsp; How is "air-tight drywall" different from =
conventional=20
  drywall?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Brad Denny</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A [log in to unmask]
    href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Robert Riversong</A> =
</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
    href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 12, =
2008 11:04=20
    AM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: damp =
cellulose</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
      <TBODY>
      <TR>
        <TD vAlign=3Dtop>
          <DIV>I believe that a plastic vapor barrier is an invitation =
to=20
          problems in almost any thermal envelope. It was promulgated by =
code=20
          when most houses were insulated with fiberglass and there was =
little=20
          attention to (even recognition of) the need for =
air-tightness.</DIV>
          <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV>In addition to preventing a thermal assembly from =
breathing=20
          (diffusion drying to the inside), it also prevents a =
wonderfully=20
          hygroscopic material like cellulose from performing as a =
moisture=20
          buffer to stabilize indoor RH, and likely creates a static =
charge=20
          which draws negative ions out of the living environment.</DIV>
          <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV>Now that it's been proven that, with reasonable indoor RH =

          levels,&nbsp;diffusion contributes as little as 1% of the =
total=20
          moisture load in a thermal envelope during the heating season, =
and=20
          that stopping air movement is the key to preventing =
indoor-generated=20
          moisture problems in the structure, the air-tight drywall =
approach=20
          solves all the problems without creating more.</DIV>
          <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV>Unfortunately, particularly for the sustainable building=20
          community, sprayed foam is being touted as a solution to =
moisture=20
          problems, when it (much like plastic VBs) creates its own set =
of=20
          negative consequences, since closed-cell foam has no moisture =
storage=20
          (buffering) ablity and open-cell foam can trap moisture and =
cause wood=20
          rot and mold. This, of course, in addition to the =
non-renewable=20
          resource depletion, embodied energy and carbon contribution=20
          issues.</DIV>
          <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV>I have calculated that, compared to a 2000 SF reasonably=20
          well-sealed code-standard fiberglass-insulated house (0.5 =
ACH), a=20
          urethane sprayed house (with insulated gable walls and roof =
assembly=20
          rather than ceiling), even accounting for an increase in =
air-tightness=20
          (min. 0.35 ACH), will have an additional embodied energy cost =
that=20
          would require 23 years of operation to pay back.</DIV>
          <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV>The same fiberglass-insulated house with 1" of exterior =
XPS=20
          and&nbsp;0.35 ACH would have an additional embodied energy =
payback of=20
          less than 1 year, in large part because it results in much =
greater=20
          energy savings than the typical sprayed urethane, mostly by=20
          eliminating thermal bridging.</DIV>
          <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV>Open-cell sprayed Icynene has almost the same embodied =
energy=20
          liability as the fiberglass, but it would result in a less=20
          energy-efficient house.</DIV>
          <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV>A similar house with 2x8 framing 24 oc (instead of 2x6 16 =
oc for=20
          the others), which uses no more total wood, and made very =
tight with=20
          the air-tight-drywall system (0.25 ACH, which is adequate in a =

          non-toxic breathable house), would have 41% of the insulation =
embodied=20
          energy of the fiberglass (less than 5% of the urethane) and =
use 39%=20
          less heating energy.&nbsp;<BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 12/12/08, Tim =
Yandow=20
          <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
          <BLOCKQUOTE=20
          style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><PRE>I have found that using a vapor barrier =
with wet spray is
an invitation to disaster though. The walls need to breathe.
Tim Yandow

</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></=
BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C95EC7.04C71AB0--
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:30:24 -0800
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: ADA
Comments: To: Brad Denny <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <6644CBE4B5764C018CE583D3DDE8C543@Beautiful>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--0-138861960-1229373024=:14525
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The Air-Tight Drywall Approach uses the drywall as a membrane to span betwe=
en sealed framing elements to create a continuous air-seal at the interior =
of the thermal envelope.
=A0
It requires careful sealing between foundation and sill and at every framin=
g "joint" (rim joist to sill, subfloor to rim joist, bottom plate to subflo=
or, etc) either with EPDM gaskets (http://www.conservationtechnology.com/bu=
ilding_gaskets.html) or acoustical (non-hardening) caulk (http://ecx.images=
-amazon.com/images/I/61RPB65WF3L._SL500_AA280) and sealing all electical=A0=
outlets with either gasketed boxes or polypans (http://www.energyfederation=
.org/consumer/default.php/cPath/21_1272_62).
=A0
The drywall is then sealed to the framing and polypans with acoustical seal=
ant and taped at the corners to complete the air-barrier membrane.
=A0
This, in addition to sealing all utility penetrations through the wall plat=
es and sealing around doors and windows (low-expansion foam works well for =
this), creates a virtually air-tight thermal envelope. Then mechanical air =
exchange is necessary to maintain indoor air quality and to exhause excess =
humidity.

--- On Mon, 12/15/08, Brad Denny <[log in to unmask]> wrote:





I am late tuning in to this interesting discussion.=A0 How is "air-tight dr=
ywall" different from conventional drywall?
Brad Denny
--0-138861960-1229373024=:14525
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>The Air-Tight Drywall Approach uses the drywall as a membrane to span between <U>sealed</U> framing elements to create a continuous air-seal at the interior of the thermal envelope.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It requires careful sealing between foundation and sill and at every framing "joint" (rim joist to sill, subfloor to rim joist, bottom plate to subfloor, etc) either with EPDM gaskets (<A href="http://www.conservationtechnology.com/building_gaskets.html">http://www.conservationtechnology.com/building_gaskets.html</A>) or acoustical (non-hardening) caulk (<A href="http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61RPB65WF3L._SL500_AA280">http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61RPB65WF3L._SL500_AA280</A>) and sealing all electical&nbsp;outlets with either gasketed boxes or polypans (<A href="http://www.energyfederation.org/consumer/default.php/cPath/21_1272_62">http://www.energyfederation.org/consumer/default.php/cPath/21_1272_62</A>).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The drywall is then sealed to the framing and polypans with acoustical sealant and taped at the corners to complete the air-barrier membrane.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This, in addition to sealing all utility penetrations through the wall plates and sealing around doors and windows (low-expansion foam works well for this), creates a virtually air-tight thermal envelope. Then mechanical air exchange is necessary to maintain indoor air quality and to exhause excess humidity.<BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 12/15/08, Brad Denny <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">
<DIV id=yiv1401130234>
<STYLE></STYLE>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I am late tuning in to this interesting discussion.&nbsp; How is "air-tight drywall" different from conventional drywall?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Brad Denny</FONT></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table>
--0-138861960-1229373024=:14525--
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:11:07 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Brad Denny <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Brad Denny <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: ADA
Comments: To: Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C95ECF.BCF67740"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C95ECF.BCF67740
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks for this quick response.
Brad Denny
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Robert Riversong=20
  To: [log in to unmask]
  Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 3:30 PM
  Subject: Re: ADA


        The Air-Tight Drywall Approach uses the drywall as a membrane to =
span between sealed framing elements to create a continuous air-seal at =
the interior of the thermal envelope.

        It requires careful sealing between foundation and sill and at =
every framing "joint" (rim joist to sill, subfloor to rim joist, bottom =
plate to subfloor, etc) either with EPDM gaskets =
(http://www.conservationtechnology.com/building_gaskets.html) or =
acoustical (non-hardening) caulk =
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61RPB65WF3L._SL500_AA280) and =
sealing all electical outlets with either gasketed boxes or polypans =
(http://www.energyfederation.org/consumer/default.php/cPath/21_1272_62).

        The drywall is then sealed to the framing and polypans with =
acoustical sealant and taped at the corners to complete the air-barrier =
membrane.

        This, in addition to sealing all utility penetrations through =
the wall plates and sealing around doors and windows (low-expansion foam =
works well for this), creates a virtually air-tight thermal envelope. =
Then mechanical air exchange is necessary to maintain indoor air quality =
and to exhause excess humidity.

        --- On Mon, 12/15/08, Brad Denny <[log in to unmask]> =
wrote:

          I am late tuning in to this interesting discussion.  How is =
"air-tight drywall" different from conventional drywall?
          Brad Denny=20

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C95ECF.BCF67740
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16762" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for this quick =
response.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Brad Denny</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A [log in to unmask]
  href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Robert Riversong</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
  href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 15, 2008 =
3:30=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: ADA</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
    <TBODY>
    <TR>
      <TD vAlign=3Dtop>
        <DIV>The Air-Tight Drywall Approach uses the drywall as a =
membrane to=20
        span between <U>sealed</U> framing elements to create a =
continuous=20
        air-seal at the interior of the thermal envelope.</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>It requires careful sealing between foundation and sill and =
at=20
        every framing "joint" (rim joist to sill, subfloor to rim joist, =
bottom=20
        plate to subfloor, etc) either with EPDM gaskets (<A=20
        =
href=3D"http://www.conservationtechnology.com/building_gaskets.html">http=
://www.conservationtechnology.com/building_gaskets.html</A>)=20
        or acoustical (non-hardening) caulk (<A=20
        =
href=3D"http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61RPB65WF3L._SL500_AA280">h=
ttp://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61RPB65WF3L._SL500_AA280</A>)=20
        and sealing all electical&nbsp;outlets with either gasketed =
boxes or=20
        polypans (<A=20
        =
href=3D"http://www.energyfederation.org/consumer/default.php/cPath/21_127=
2_62">http://www.energyfederation.org/consumer/default.php/cPath/21_1272_=
62</A>).</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>The drywall is then sealed to the framing and polypans with =

        acoustical sealant and taped at the corners to complete the =
air-barrier=20
        membrane.</DIV>
        <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>This, in addition to sealing all utility penetrations =
through the=20
        wall plates and sealing around doors and windows (low-expansion =
foam=20
        works well for this), creates a virtually air-tight thermal =
envelope.=20
        Then mechanical air exchange is necessary to maintain indoor air =
quality=20
        and to exhause excess humidity.<BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 12/15/08, =
Brad=20
        Denny <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B> =
wrote:<BR></DIV>
        <BLOCKQUOTE=20
        style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">
          <DIV id=3Dyiv1401130234>
          <STYLE></STYLE>

          <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am late tuning in to this =
interesting=20
          discussion.&nbsp; How is "air-tight drywall" different from=20
          conventional drywall?</FONT></DIV>
          <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Brad=20
      =
Denny</FONT></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></BLOCKQUO=
TE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C95ECF.BCF67740--
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:19:46 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Brad Denny <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Brad Denny <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: damp cellulose
Comments: To: Jeff Gephart <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01C95ED0.F2676280"

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------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C95ED0.F2676280
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jeff,
    Thanks for this quick response.  I built a new house four years ago =
with a continuous PVB on the main living floor (walls, not ceiling), =
R-19 fibreglass insulation in the walls and R-50 in the attic, 1/2" =
plywood sheathing, housewrap and 1" shiplapped pine siding finished with =
a solid, latex stain.  I could have done a better job sealing outlets, =
but the house is pretty tight and there is no sign of a moisture problem =
affecting either the stain or the interior paint.  Should I be worried?
Brad=20
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Jeff Gephart=20
  To: [log in to unmask]
  Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 3:08 PM
  Subject: Re: damp cellulose


  Brad,
  It is essentially gluing the drywall to the building's exterior frame =
and sealing all penetrations.  At corners we only attach to one side of =
the frame so framing lumber shrinkage doesn't crack the drywall in the =
corners.  As a backer for the non-mechanically fastened side of the =
corner drywall clips are often used (Simpson Strong-Tie # DS or USP =
Lumber Connectors # DC1).  If you review the two pdf's at the links =
below written by Joe Lstiburek you will get a pretty good idea about how =
the airtight drywall approach works.

  Air Barriers - =
www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0403-air-barriers/?topic=3D/=
doctypes/researchreport
  Drywall, Wood & Truss Uplift - =
www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0107-drywall-wood-and-truss-=
uplift/

  Kind regards,
  Jeff Gephart

  Vermont ENERGY STAR Homes
    A service of Efficiency Vermont & Vermont Gas Systems

  LEED for Homes
    A U.S. Green Building Council program

  800-893-1997
  802-767-3861 fax
    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Brad Denny=20
    To: [log in to unmask]
    Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 2:36 PM
    Subject: Re: [VGBNTALK] damp cellulose


    I am late tuning in to this interesting discussion.  How is =
"air-tight drywall" different from conventional drywall?
    Brad Denny
      ----- Original Message -----=20
      From: Robert Riversong=20
      To: [log in to unmask]
      Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 11:04 AM
      Subject: Re: damp cellulose


            I believe that a plastic vapor barrier is an invitation to =
problems in almost any thermal envelope. It was promulgated by code when =
most houses were insulated with fiberglass and there was little =
attention to (even recognition of) the need for air-tightness.

            In addition to preventing a thermal assembly from breathing =
(diffusion drying to the inside), it also prevents a wonderfully =
hygroscopic material like cellulose from performing as a moisture buffer =
to stabilize indoor RH, and likely creates a static charge which draws =
negative ions out of the living environment.

            Now that it's been proven that, with reasonable indoor RH =
levels, diffusion contributes as little as 1% of the total moisture load =
in a thermal envelope during the heating season, and that stopping air =
movement is the key to preventing indoor-generated moisture problems in =
the structure, the air-tight drywall approach solves all the problems =
without creating more.

            Unfortunately, particularly for the sustainable building =
community, sprayed foam is being touted as a solution to moisture =
problems, when it (much like plastic VBs) creates its own set of =
negative consequences, since closed-cell foam has no moisture storage =
(buffering) ablity and open-cell foam can trap moisture and cause wood =
rot and mold. This, of course, in addition to the non-renewable resource =
depletion, embodied energy and carbon contribution issues.

            I have calculated that, compared to a 2000 SF reasonably =
well-sealed code-standard fiberglass-insulated house (0.5 ACH), a =
urethane sprayed house (with insulated gable walls and roof assembly =
rather than ceiling), even accounting for an increase in air-tightness =
(min. 0.35 ACH), will have an additional embodied energy cost that would =
require 23 years of operation to pay back.

            The same fiberglass-insulated house with 1" of exterior XPS =
and 0.35 ACH would have an additional embodied energy payback of less =
than 1 year, in large part because it results in much greater energy =
savings than the typical sprayed urethane, mostly by eliminating thermal =
bridging.

            Open-cell sprayed Icynene has almost the same embodied =
energy liability as the fiberglass, but it would result in a less =
energy-efficient house.

            A similar house with 2x8 framing 24 oc (instead of 2x6 16 oc =
for the others), which uses no more total wood, and made very tight with =
the air-tight-drywall system (0.25 ACH, which is adequate in a non-toxic =
breathable house), would have 41% of the insulation embodied energy of =
the fiberglass (less than 5% of the urethane) and use 39% less heating =
energy.=20

            --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Tim Yandow <[log in to unmask]> =
wrote:

I have found that using a vapor barrier with wet spray is
an invitation to disaster though. The walls need to breathe.
Tim Yandow

=20

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16762" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jeff,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks for this =
quick=20
response.&nbsp; I built a new house four years ago with a continuous PVB =
on the=20
main living floor (walls, not ceiling), R-19 fibreglass insulation in =
the walls=20
and R-50 in the attic, 1/2" plywood sheathing, housewrap and 1" =
shiplapped pine=20
siding finished with a solid, latex stain.&nbsp; I could have done a =
better job=20
sealing outlets, but the house is pretty tight and there is no sign of a =

moisture problem affecting either the stain or the interior paint.&nbsp; =
Should=20
I be worried?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Brad </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A [log in to unmask] =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Jeff=20
  Gephart</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
  href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 15, 2008 =
3:08=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: damp =
cellulose</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Brad,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It is essentially gluing the drywall =
to the=20
  building's exterior frame and sealing all penetrations.&nbsp; At =
corners we=20
  only attach to one side of the frame so framing lumber shrinkage =
doesn't crack=20
  the drywall in the corners.&nbsp; As a backer for the non-mechanically =

  fastened side of the corner drywall clips are often used (<SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; mso-bidi-font-family: =
'Times New Roman'">Simpson=20
  Strong-Tie # DS </SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; mso-bidi-font-family: =
'Times New Roman'">or</SPAN><FONT=20
  face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;</FONT><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; mso-bidi-font-family: =
'Times New Roman'">USP=20
  Lumber Connectors # DC1).</SPAN>&nbsp; If you review the two pdf's at =
the=20
  links below written by Joe Lstiburek you will get a pretty good idea =
about how=20
  the airtight drywall approach works.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Air Barriers - <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0403-air-barr=
iers/?topic=3D/doctypes/researchreport">www.buildingscience.com/documents=
/reports/rr-0403-air-barriers/?topic=3D/doctypes/researchreport</A></FONT=
></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Drywall, Wood &amp; Truss Uplift - <A =

  =
href=3D"http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0107-drywall-=
wood-and-truss-uplift/">www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0107=
-drywall-wood-and-truss-uplift/</A></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kind regards,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jeff Gephart</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Vermont ENERGY STAR Homes<BR>&nbsp; A service of Efficiency =
Vermont &amp;=20
  Vermont Gas Systems</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>LEED for Homes<BR>&nbsp; A U.S. Green Building Council =
program</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>800-893-1997<BR>802-767-3861 fax</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A [log in to unmask]
    href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Brad Denny</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
    href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 15, =
2008 2:36=20
    PM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [VGBNTALK] damp=20
    cellulose</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am late tuning in to this =
interesting=20
    discussion.&nbsp; How is "air-tight drywall" different from =
conventional=20
    drywall?</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Brad Denny</FONT></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
      <DIV=20
      style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
      <A [log in to unmask]
      href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Robert Riversong</A> =
</DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
      href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
</DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 12, =
2008 11:04=20
      AM</DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: damp =
cellulose</DIV>
      <DIV><BR></DIV>
      <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
        <TBODY>
        <TR>
          <TD vAlign=3Dtop>
            <DIV>I believe that a plastic vapor barrier is an invitation =
to=20
            problems in almost any thermal envelope. It was promulgated =
by code=20
            when most houses were insulated with fiberglass and there =
was little=20
            attention to (even recognition of) the need for =
air-tightness.</DIV>
            <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV>In addition to preventing a thermal assembly from =
breathing=20
            (diffusion drying to the inside), it also prevents a =
wonderfully=20
            hygroscopic material like cellulose from performing as a =
moisture=20
            buffer to stabilize indoor RH, and likely creates a static =
charge=20
            which draws negative ions out of the living =
environment.</DIV>
            <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV>Now that it's been proven that, with reasonable indoor =
RH=20
            levels,&nbsp;diffusion contributes as little as 1% of the =
total=20
            moisture load in a thermal envelope during the heating =
season, and=20
            that stopping air movement is the key to preventing =
indoor-generated=20
            moisture problems in the structure, the air-tight drywall =
approach=20
            solves all the problems without creating more.</DIV>
            <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV>Unfortunately, particularly for the sustainable =
building=20
            community, sprayed foam is being touted as a solution to =
moisture=20
            problems, when it (much like plastic VBs) creates its own =
set of=20
            negative consequences, since closed-cell foam has no =
moisture=20
            storage (buffering) ablity and open-cell foam can trap =
moisture and=20
            cause wood rot and mold. This, of course, in addition to the =

            non-renewable resource depletion, embodied energy and carbon =

            contribution issues.</DIV>
            <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV>I have calculated that, compared to a 2000 SF =
reasonably=20
            well-sealed code-standard fiberglass-insulated house (0.5 =
ACH), a=20
            urethane sprayed house (with insulated gable walls and roof =
assembly=20
            rather than ceiling), even accounting for an increase in=20
            air-tightness (min. 0.35 ACH), will have an additional =
embodied=20
            energy cost that would require 23 years of operation to pay=20
            back.</DIV>
            <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV>The same fiberglass-insulated house with 1" of exterior =
XPS=20
            and&nbsp;0.35 ACH would have an additional embodied energy =
payback=20
            of less than 1 year, in large part because it results in =
much=20
            greater energy savings than the typical sprayed urethane, =
mostly by=20
            eliminating thermal bridging.</DIV>
            <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV>Open-cell sprayed Icynene has almost the same embodied =
energy=20
            liability as the fiberglass, but it would result in a less=20
            energy-efficient house.</DIV>
            <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
            <DIV>A similar house with 2x8 framing 24 oc (instead of 2x6 =
16 oc=20
            for the others), which uses no more total wood, and made =
very tight=20
            with the air-tight-drywall system (0.25 ACH, which is =
adequate in a=20
            non-toxic breathable house), would have 41% of the =
insulation=20
            embodied energy of the fiberglass (less than 5% of the =
urethane) and=20
            use 39% less heating energy.&nbsp;<BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, =
12/12/08,=20
            Tim Yandow <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B>=20
wrote:<BR></DIV>
            <BLOCKQUOTE=20
            style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><PRE>I have found that using a vapor barrier =
with wet spray is
an invitation to disaster though. The walls need to breathe.
Tim Yandow

</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></=
BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C95ED0.F2676280--
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:32:05 -0800
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: damp cellulose
In-Reply-To:  <4646EAA8DA094407BD756773C690E08A@Beautiful>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1148297408-1229376725=:82101"

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If you don't have a well-ventilated attic, by which I mean continous soffit=
 vents and ridge vent with wind baffle, then I would advise checking the ro=
of sheathing in winter for condensation, particularly if there is an attic =
hatch with likely air exfiltration. Since fiberglass insulation, even kraft=
-faced,=A0won't stop air movement, the ceiling is also a very important sur=
face to air seal (which is the most important function of the VB).

--- On Mon, 12/15/08, Brad Denny <[log in to unmask]> wrote:



I built a new house four years ago with a continuous PVB on the main living=
 floor (walls, not ceiling), R-19 fibreglass insulation in the walls and R-=
50 in the attic, 1/2" plywood sheathing, housewrap and 1" shiplapped pine s=
iding finished with a solid, latex stain.=A0 I could have done a better job=
 sealing outlets, but the house is pretty tight and there is no sign of a m=
oisture problem affecting either the stain or the interior paint.=A0 Should=
 I be worried?
Brad 
--0-1148297408-1229376725=:82101
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;">If you don't have a well-ventilated attic, by which I mean continous soffit vents and ridge vent with wind baffle, then I would advise checking the roof sheathing in winter for condensation, particularly if there is an attic hatch with likely air exfiltration. Since fiberglass insulation, even kraft-faced,&nbsp;won't stop air movement, the ceiling is also a very important surface to air seal (which is the most important function of the VB).<BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 12/15/08, Brad Denny <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">
<DIV id=yiv331474087>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I built a new house four years ago with a continuous PVB on the main living floor (walls, not ceiling), R-19 fibreglass insulation in the walls and R-50 in the attic, 1/2" plywood sheathing, housewrap and 1" shiplapped pine siding finished with a solid, latex stain.&nbsp; I could have done a better job sealing outlets, but the house is pretty tight and there is no sign of a moisture problem affecting either the stain or the interior paint.&nbsp; Should I be worried?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Brad </FONT></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table>
--0-1148297408-1229376725=:82101--
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 2008 16:55:34 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Jeff Gephart <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Jeff Gephart <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: damp cellulose
Comments: To: Brad Denny <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00E1_01C95ED5.F2AF0090"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00E1_01C95ED5.F2AF0090
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Brad,

You built as 85% of all others have so while you have constructed a wall =
assemby that once wetted will have trouble drying out you're in good =
company.  Robert's advice to check the attic ceiling for air leaks and =
seal them if they exist is good.  You should also make sure that your =
ventilation system (assuming you installed one) is operating =
appropriately.  An automated mechanical ventilation system should be =
able to keep your winter RH around 30 to 35%.  By ensuring that you =
maintain the lower RH you will also reduce wetting potential in your =
walls by limiting the amount of water vapor available.

Kind regards,
Jeff

Vermont ENERGY STAR Homes
  A service of Efficiency Vermont & Vermont Gas Systems

LEED for Homes
  A U.S. Green Building Council program

800-893-1997
802-767-3861 fax
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Brad Denny=20
  To: [log in to unmask]
  Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 4:19 PM
  Subject: Re: [VGBNTALK] damp cellulose


  Jeff,
      Thanks for this quick response.  I built a new house four years =
ago with a continuous PVB on the main living floor (walls, not ceiling), =
R-19 fibreglass insulation in the walls and R-50 in the attic, 1/2" =
plywood sheathing, housewrap and 1" shiplapped pine siding finished with =
a solid, latex stain.  I could have done a better job sealing outlets, =
but the house is pretty tight and there is no sign of a moisture problem =
affecting either the stain or the interior paint.  Should I be worried?
  Brad=20
    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Jeff Gephart=20
    To: [log in to unmask]
    Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 3:08 PM
    Subject: Re: damp cellulose


    Brad,
    It is essentially gluing the drywall to the building's exterior =
frame and sealing all penetrations.  At corners we only attach to one =
side of the frame so framing lumber shrinkage doesn't crack the drywall =
in the corners.  As a backer for the non-mechanically fastened side of =
the corner drywall clips are often used (Simpson Strong-Tie # DS or USP =
Lumber Connectors # DC1).  If you review the two pdf's at the links =
below written by Joe Lstiburek you will get a pretty good idea about how =
the airtight drywall approach works.

    Air Barriers - =
www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0403-air-barriers/?topic=3D/=
doctypes/researchreport
    Drywall, Wood & Truss Uplift - =
www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0107-drywall-wood-and-truss-=
uplift/

    Kind regards,
    Jeff Gephart

    Vermont ENERGY STAR Homes
      A service of Efficiency Vermont & Vermont Gas Systems

    LEED for Homes
      A U.S. Green Building Council program

    800-893-1997
    802-767-3861 fax
      ----- Original Message -----=20
      From: Brad Denny=20
      To: [log in to unmask]
      Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 2:36 PM
      Subject: Re: [VGBNTALK] damp cellulose


      I am late tuning in to this interesting discussion.  How is =
"air-tight drywall" different from conventional drywall?
      Brad Denny
        ----- Original Message -----=20
        From: Robert Riversong=20
        To: [log in to unmask]
        Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 11:04 AM
        Subject: Re: damp cellulose


              I believe that a plastic vapor barrier is an invitation to =
problems in almost any thermal envelope. It was promulgated by code when =
most houses were insulated with fiberglass and there was little =
attention to (even recognition of) the need for air-tightness.

              In addition to preventing a thermal assembly from =
breathing (diffusion drying to the inside), it also prevents a =
wonderfully hygroscopic material like cellulose from performing as a =
moisture buffer to stabilize indoor RH, and likely creates a static =
charge which draws negative ions out of the living environment.

              Now that it's been proven that, with reasonable indoor RH =
levels, diffusion contributes as little as 1% of the total moisture load =
in a thermal envelope during the heating season, and that stopping air =
movement is the key to preventing indoor-generated moisture problems in =
the structure, the air-tight drywall approach solves all the problems =
without creating more.

              Unfortunately, particularly for the sustainable building =
community, sprayed foam is being touted as a solution to moisture =
problems, when it (much like plastic VBs) creates its own set of =
negative consequences, since closed-cell foam has no moisture storage =
(buffering) ablity and open-cell foam can trap moisture and cause wood =
rot and mold. This, of course, in addition to the non-renewable resource =
depletion, embodied energy and carbon contribution issues.

              I have calculated that, compared to a 2000 SF reasonably =
well-sealed code-standard fiberglass-insulated house (0.5 ACH), a =
urethane sprayed house (with insulated gable walls and roof assembly =
rather than ceiling), even accounting for an increase in air-tightness =
(min. 0.35 ACH), will have an additional embodied energy cost that would =
require 23 years of operation to pay back.

              The same fiberglass-insulated house with 1" of exterior =
XPS and 0.35 ACH would have an additional embodied energy payback of =
less than 1 year, in large part because it results in much greater =
energy savings than the typical sprayed urethane, mostly by eliminating =
thermal bridging.

              Open-cell sprayed Icynene has almost the same embodied =
energy liability as the fiberglass, but it would result in a less =
energy-efficient house.

              A similar house with 2x8 framing 24 oc (instead of 2x6 16 =
oc for the others), which uses no more total wood, and made very tight =
with the air-tight-drywall system (0.25 ACH, which is adequate in a =
non-toxic breathable house), would have 41% of the insulation embodied =
energy of the fiberglass (less than 5% of the urethane) and use 39% less =
heating energy.=20

              --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Tim Yandow <[log in to unmask]> =
wrote:

I have found that using a vapor barrier with wet spray is
an invitation to disaster though. The walls need to breathe.
Tim Yandow

=20

------=_NextPart_000_00E1_01C95ED5.F2AF0090
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16762" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Brad,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>You built as 85% of all others have so =
while you=20
have constructed a wall assemby that once wetted will have trouble =
drying out=20
you're in good company.&nbsp; Robert's advice to check the attic ceiling =
for air=20
leaks and seal them if they exist is good.&nbsp; You should also make =
sure that=20
your ventilation system (assuming you installed one) is operating=20
appropriately.&nbsp; An automated mechanical ventilation system should =
be able=20
to keep your winter RH around 30 to 35%.&nbsp; By ensuring that you =
maintain the=20
lower RH you will also reduce wetting potential in your walls by =
limiting the=20
amount of water vapor available.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kind regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jeff</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Vermont ENERGY STAR Homes<BR>&nbsp; A service of Efficiency Vermont =
&amp;=20
Vermont Gas Systems</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>LEED for Homes<BR>&nbsp; A U.S. Green Building Council =
program</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>800-893-1997<BR>802-767-3861 fax</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A [log in to unmask]
  href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Brad Denny</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
  href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 15, 2008 =
4:19=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [VGBNTALK] damp=20
  cellulose</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jeff,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks for this =
quick=20
  response.&nbsp; I built a new house four years ago with a continuous =
PVB on=20
  the main living floor (walls, not ceiling), R-19 fibreglass insulation =
in the=20
  walls and R-50 in the attic, 1/2" plywood sheathing, housewrap and 1"=20
  shiplapped pine siding finished with a solid, latex stain.&nbsp; I =
could have=20
  done a better job sealing outlets, but the house is pretty tight and =
there is=20
  no sign of a moisture problem affecting either the stain or the =
interior=20
  paint.&nbsp; Should I be worried?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Brad </FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A [log in to unmask] =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Jeff=20
    Gephart</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
    href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 15, =
2008 3:08=20
    PM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: damp =
cellulose</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Brad,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It is essentially gluing the =
drywall to the=20
    building's exterior frame and sealing all penetrations.&nbsp; At =
corners we=20
    only attach to one side of the frame so framing lumber shrinkage =
doesn't=20
    crack the drywall in the corners.&nbsp; As a backer for the =
non-mechanically=20
    fastened side of the corner drywall clips are often used (<SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; mso-bidi-font-family: =
'Times New Roman'">Simpson=20
    Strong-Tie # DS </SPAN><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; mso-bidi-font-family: =
'Times New Roman'">or</SPAN><FONT=20
    face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp;</FONT><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; mso-bidi-font-family: =
'Times New Roman'">USP=20
    Lumber Connectors # DC1).</SPAN>&nbsp; If you review the two pdf's =
at the=20
    links below written by Joe Lstiburek you will get a pretty good idea =
about=20
    how the airtight drywall approach works.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Air Barriers - <A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0403-air-barr=
iers/?topic=3D/doctypes/researchreport">www.buildingscience.com/documents=
/reports/rr-0403-air-barriers/?topic=3D/doctypes/researchreport</A></FONT=
></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Drywall, Wood &amp; Truss Uplift - =
<A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0107-drywall-=
wood-and-truss-uplift/">www.buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0107=
-drywall-wood-and-truss-uplift/</A></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kind regards,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jeff Gephart</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Vermont ENERGY STAR Homes<BR>&nbsp; A service of Efficiency =
Vermont=20
    &amp; Vermont Gas Systems</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>LEED for Homes<BR>&nbsp; A U.S. Green Building Council =
program</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>800-893-1997<BR>802-767-3861 fax</DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
    style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
      <DIV=20
      style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
      <A [log in to unmask]
      href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Brad Denny</A> </DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
      href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
</DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 15, =
2008 2:36=20
      PM</DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [VGBNTALK] =
damp=20
      cellulose</DIV>
      <DIV><BR></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am late tuning in to this =
interesting=20
      discussion.&nbsp; How is "air-tight drywall" different from =
conventional=20
      drywall?</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Brad Denny</FONT></DIV>
      <BLOCKQUOTE=20
      style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
        <DIV=20
        style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
        <A [log in to unmask]
        href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Robert Riversong</A> =
</DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
        href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> =
</DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December =
12, 2008=20
        11:04 AM</DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: damp =
cellulose</DIV>
        <DIV><BR></DIV>
        <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
          <TBODY>
          <TR>
            <TD vAlign=3Dtop>
              <DIV>I believe that a plastic vapor barrier is an =
invitation to=20
              problems in almost any thermal envelope. It was =
promulgated by=20
              code when most houses were insulated with fiberglass and =
there was=20
              little attention to (even recognition of) the need for=20
              air-tightness.</DIV>
              <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
              <DIV>In addition to preventing a thermal assembly from =
breathing=20
              (diffusion drying to the inside), it also prevents a =
wonderfully=20
              hygroscopic material like cellulose from performing as a =
moisture=20
              buffer to stabilize indoor RH, and likely creates a static =
charge=20
              which draws negative ions out of the living =
environment.</DIV>
              <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
              <DIV>Now that it's been proven that, with reasonable =
indoor RH=20
              levels,&nbsp;diffusion contributes as little as 1% of the =
total=20
              moisture load in a thermal envelope during the heating =
season, and=20
              that stopping air movement is the key to preventing=20
              indoor-generated moisture problems in the structure, the =
air-tight=20
              drywall approach solves all the problems without creating=20
              more.</DIV>
              <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
              <DIV>Unfortunately, particularly for the sustainable =
building=20
              community, sprayed foam is being touted as a solution to =
moisture=20
              problems, when it (much like plastic VBs) creates its own =
set of=20
              negative consequences, since closed-cell foam has no =
moisture=20
              storage (buffering) ablity and open-cell foam can trap =
moisture=20
              and cause wood rot and mold. This, of course, in addition =
to the=20
              non-renewable resource depletion, embodied energy and =
carbon=20
              contribution issues.</DIV>
              <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
              <DIV>I have calculated that, compared to a 2000 SF =
reasonably=20
              well-sealed code-standard fiberglass-insulated house (0.5 =
ACH), a=20
              urethane sprayed house (with insulated gable walls and =
roof=20
              assembly rather than ceiling), even accounting for an =
increase in=20
              air-tightness (min. 0.35 ACH), will have an additional =
embodied=20
              energy cost that would require 23 years of operation to =
pay=20
              back.</DIV>
              <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
              <DIV>The same fiberglass-insulated house with 1" of =
exterior XPS=20
              and&nbsp;0.35 ACH would have an additional embodied energy =
payback=20
              of less than 1 year, in large part because it results in =
much=20
              greater energy savings than the typical sprayed urethane, =
mostly=20
              by eliminating thermal bridging.</DIV>
              <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
              <DIV>Open-cell sprayed Icynene has almost the same =
embodied energy=20
              liability as the fiberglass, but it would result in a less =

              energy-efficient house.</DIV>
              <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
              <DIV>A similar house with 2x8 framing 24 oc (instead of =
2x6 16 oc=20
              for the others), which uses no more total wood, and made =
very=20
              tight with the air-tight-drywall system (0.25 ACH, which =
is=20
              adequate in a non-toxic breathable house), would have 41% =
of the=20
              insulation embodied energy of the fiberglass (less than 5% =
of the=20
              urethane) and use 39% less heating =
energy.&nbsp;<BR><BR>--- On=20
              <B>Fri, 12/12/08, Tim Yandow=20
              <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
              <BLOCKQUOTE=20
              style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><PRE>I have found that using a vapor barrier =
with wet spray is
an invitation to disaster though. The walls need to breathe.
Tim Yandow

</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></=
BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00E1_01C95ED5.F2AF0090--
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 2008 20:32:08 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Murphy's CELL-TECH <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Murphy's CELL-TECH <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
Comments: To: Iver Magoon <[log in to unmask]>,
          [log in to unmask], [log in to unmask], Jonathan Miller
          <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0047_01C95EF4.33604C70"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C95EF4.33604C70
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Iver Magoon=20
  To: Murphy's CELL-TECH=20
  Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 5:17 PM
  Subject: Re: [VGBNTALK] not natural building products?


  HI JOHN , LAST SPRING WE DID A DEMO WALL AND CARRIED IT AROUND ON BACK =
ROADS . IN NEW HAMPSHIRE AND VERMONT FOR ABOUT 2 WEEKS AND AROUND 300 =
MILES . AND WHEN BE BROUGHT IT BACK INTO THE SHOP TO OPEN WALL WE COULD =
NOT SLIDE A CREDIT CARD BETWEEN INSULATION AND TOP PLATE . SO I SAY IT =
WILL NOT SETTLE IN NORMAL TRANSPORTATION . THANKS IVER
    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Murphy's CELL-TECH=20
    To: Iver Magoon=20
    Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 10:49 PM
    Subject: Fw: [VGBNTALK] not natural building products?


    Iver Magoon,

    Does "Preferred Building Systems"  have any input or experience that =
would speak to the question of settling or not, of the cellulose used in =
their homes.  Does it happen during transportation as the writer below =
alludes to? =20

    I don't expect it to be a problem.  But I thought you or someone at =
PBS might want to add words of concerning transporting the cellulose =
insulated modular.

    Jonathan Miller made me aware of this conversation by others.  All =
communications are included below.

    Sincerely,
    John



    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Jonathan Miller, AIA=20
    To: John Unger Murphy=20
    Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:55 PM
    Subject: Fwd: [VGBNTALK] not natural building products?


    Hello John:=20
    Perhaps you want to get into the [log in to unmask] cellulose =
discussion below?


    Here's hoping you are doing well !


    Happy Holidays!
    Jonathan


    Jonathan Miller, FCSI, SCIP, AIA, NCARB
    [log in to unmask]
    802.349.9992




    Begin forwarded message:


      From: "Tom \"Doc\" Brudzinski" <[log in to unmask]>
      Date: December 11, 2008 1:47:59 PM EST
      To: [log in to unmask]
      Subject: Re: [VGBNTALK] not natural building products?
      Reply-To: VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>, "Tom \"Doc\" =
Brudzinski" <[log in to unmask]>


      I do work with a modular manufacturer and have contacts with =
others. They have all stayed away from cellulose because of settlement =
during transportation. Does your group feel the dense-pack eliminates =
the risk of settlement by eliminating the space for settlement to =
occur??




      Chad Lacasse wrote:=20
        Embodied energy is the energy consumed in producing products. =
Mineral insulation comes from furnaces that gulp natural gas to melt =
sand, slag, or rock. Foam plastics are petrochemicals. They are =
literally made out of energy! Cellulose insulation is made by processing =
recycled wood fibers through electrically driven mills that consume =
relatively little energy when they are operating, and which can be shut =
down completely with the flip of a switch at the end of the shift -- or =
even for lunch and coffee breaks. Fiber glass, rock wool, and plastic =
insulation may have from 50 to over 200 times more embodied energy than =
cellulose.

        Preferred Building Systems, our modular home factory installs =
dense-pack cellulose at a 3.8 per inch R value and provides tremendous =
air sealing along with the additional air sealing we install. The =
cellulose is 85% post consumer recycled newspapers with a fungicide and =
fire retarder.





------------------------------------------------------------------------
        From: VGBN Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf =
Of Suzy Hodgson
        Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:03 PM
        To: [log in to unmask]
        Subject: Re: not natural building products?


        cellulose insulation made with recycled paper is a good green =
option with performance - high R value  and low ghg emissions=20

        On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong wrote:


                Icynene vs straw is a good example of the difficulty in =
making appropriate choices of "green" materials.

                While I don't think that spray foams should be used in =
new construction, stuffing straw into existing walls for a =
retrofit/upgrade is not a sensible option and with a limited wall cavity =
Icynene may be the best alternative for renovation. Even for new =
construction, straw bales - with their low R-value per inch =
(=E2=89=881.45, about the same as lumber) may not be the best choice.

                Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting =
installation by-products, Icynene has only a little more embodied energy =
per cubic foot than fiberglass (not that I would recommend fiberglass =
for anything), typically less installed embodied energy (since framing =
bays are not generally completely filled) and better efficiency payback. =


                Best use of remaining fossil energy and petrochemicals? =
Not so simple to discern.

                --- On Thu, 12/11/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey =
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

                  Point taken.  I admittedly was thinking of products =
like Icynene vs. straw, but it seems fossil fuels really are part of our =
entire world.

                  On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote:=20
                          --- On Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey =
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
                             Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture =
and transport the majority of green building products (not natural =
building products such as straw bales)...=20

                          I'm afraid that fossil fuels are used for the =
production of most straw and since some of it is coming from Canada, =
there's also transportation costs. "Natural" building materials are not =
necessarily immune from the environmental costs of other materials. =20


              =20







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Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="utf-8"
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=EF=BB=BF<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.5694" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY=20
style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word; webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
webkit-line-break: after-white-space"=20
bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A [log in to unmask] =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Iver=20
  Magoon</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
  href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Murphy's CELL-TECH</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 14, 2008 =
5:17=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [VGBNTALK] not =
natural=20
  building products?</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>HI JOHN , LAST SPRING WE DID A DEMO =
WALL AND=20
  CARRIED IT AROUND ON BACK ROADS . IN NEW HAMPSHIRE AND VERMONT FOR =
ABOUT 2=20
  WEEKS AND AROUND 300 MILES . AND WHEN BE BROUGHT IT BACK INTO THE SHOP =
TO OPEN=20
  WALL WE COULD NOT SLIDE A CREDIT CARD BETWEEN INSULATION AND TOP PLATE =
. SO I=20
  SAY IT WILL NOT SETTLE IN NORMAL TRANSPORTATION . THANKS =
IVER</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A [log in to unmask]
    href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Murphy's CELL-TECH</A> =
</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
    href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Iver Magoon</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 12, =
2008 10:49=20
    PM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Fw: [VGBNTALK] not =
natural=20
    building products?</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV>Iver Magoon,</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Does&nbsp;"Preferred Building Systems"&nbsp; have any input or=20
    experience that would speak to the question of settling or not, of =
the=20
    cellulose used in their homes.&nbsp; Does it happen during =
transportation as=20
    the writer below alludes to?&nbsp; </DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>I don't expect it to be a problem.&nbsp; But I thought you or =
someone=20
    at PBS might want to add words of&nbsp;concerning&nbsp;transporting =
the=20
    cellulose insulated modular.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Jonathan Miller made me aware of this conversation by =
others.&nbsp; All=20
    communications are included below.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Sincerely,</DIV>
    <DIV>John</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
    <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> =
<A=20
    [log in to unmask]
    href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Jonathan Miller, AIA</A> =
</DIV>
    <DIV><B>To:</B> <A [log in to unmask]
    href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">John Unger Murphy</A> =
</DIV>
    <DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:55 PM</DIV>
    <DIV><B>Subject:</B> Fwd: [VGBNTALK] not natural building=20
    products?</DIV></DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>Hello John:=20
    <DIV>Perhaps you want to get into the&nbsp;<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>=20
    cellulose&nbsp;discussion below?</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV>Here's hoping you are doing well !</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV>Happy Holidays!</DIV>
    <DIV>Jonathan</DIV>
    <DIV><BR>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span=20
    style=3D"WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: =
none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; =
LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; orphans: 2; widows: =
2; webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: =
none; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0"><SPAN=20
    class=3DApple-style-span=20
    style=3D"WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: =
none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; =
LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; orphans: 2; widows: =
2; webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: =
none; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px"><SPAN=20
    class=3DApple-style-span=20
    style=3D"WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: =
none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; =
LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; orphans: 2; widows: =
2; webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: =
none; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px"><SPAN=20
    class=3DApple-style-span=20
    style=3D"WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: 12px Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: =
none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; =
LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; orphans: 2; widows: =
2; webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: =
none; webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">
    <DIV>Jonathan Miller,<SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space>&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
    class=3DApple-style-span=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9px; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">FCSI, SCIP,=20
    AIA, NCARB</SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></DI=
V>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9px; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">802.349.9992</SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><BR=20
    =
class=3Dwebkit-block-placeholder></DIV></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>=

    <DIV><BR>
    <DIV>Begin forwarded message:</DIV><BR =
class=3DApple-interchange-newline>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
      <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT=20
      style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; COLOR: #000000" face=3DHelvetica =
color=3D#000000=20
      size=3D3><B>From: </B></FONT><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica"=20
      face=3DHelvetica size=3D3>"Tom \"Doc\" Brudzinski" &lt;<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>&gt;</FONT></DIV=
>
      <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT=20
      style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; COLOR: #000000" face=3DHelvetica =
color=3D#000000=20
      size=3D3><B>Date: </B></FONT><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica"=20
      face=3DHelvetica size=3D3>December 11, 2008 1:47:59 PM =
EST</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT=20
      style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; COLOR: #000000" face=3DHelvetica =
color=3D#000000=20
      size=3D3><B>To: </B></FONT><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica" =
face=3DHelvetica=20
      size=3D3><A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A></FONT></D=
IV>
      <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT=20
      style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; COLOR: #000000" face=3DHelvetica =
color=3D#000000=20
      size=3D3><B>Subject: </B></FONT><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px =
Helvetica"=20
      face=3DHelvetica size=3D3><B>Re: [VGBNTALK] not natural building=20
      products?</B></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT=20
      style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; COLOR: #000000" face=3DHelvetica =
color=3D#000000=20
      size=3D3><B>Reply-To: </B></FONT><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px =
Helvetica"=20
      face=3DHelvetica size=3D3>VGBN Discussion &lt;<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>&gt;, =
"Tom=20
      \"Doc\" Brudzinski" &lt;<A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>&gt;</FONT></DIV=
>
      <DIV style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: 0px"><BR></DIV>I do work =
with a=20
      modular manufacturer and have contacts with others. They have all =
stayed=20
      away from cellulose because of settlement during transportation. =
Does your=20
      group feel the dense-pack eliminates the risk of settlement by =
eliminating=20
      the space for settlement to occur??<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Chad =
Lacasse wrote:=20

      <BLOCKQUOTE=20
      cite=3Dmid:[log in to unmask]
      type=3D"cite">
        <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Century =
Gothic">Embodied energy is=20
        the energy consumed in producing products. Mineral insulation =
comes from=20
        furnaces that gulp natural gas to melt sand, slag, or rock. Foam =

        plastics are petrochemicals. They are literally made out of =
energy!=20
        Cellulose insulation is made by processing recycled wood fibers =
through=20
        electrically driven mills that consume relatively little energy =
when=20
        they are operating, and which can be shut down completely with =
the flip=20
        of a switch at the end of the shift -- or even for lunch and =
coffee=20
        breaks. Fiber glass, rock wool, and plastic insulation may have =
from 50=20
        to over 200 times more embodied energy than =
cellulose.</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN =
class=3D316471018-11122008><FONT=20
        face=3D"Century Gothic">Preferred Building Systems, our modular =
home=20
        factory installs dense-pack cellulose at a 3.8 per inch R value =
and=20
        provides tremendous air sealing along with the additional air =
sealing we=20
        install. The cellulose is 85% post consumer recycled newspapers =
with a=20
        fungicide and fire retarder.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN=20
        class=3D316471018-11122008></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN=20
        class=3D316471018-11122008></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
        <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft>
        <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
        <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> VGBN Discussion [<A=20
        class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>]=20
        <B>On Behalf Of </B>Suzy Hodgson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, =
December 11,=20
        2008 1:03 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated=20
        =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><BR><B>Sub=
ject:</B>=20
        Re: not natural building products?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>cellulose =

        insulation made with recycled paper is a good green option with=20
        performance - high R value &nbsp;and low ghg emissions&nbsp;<BR>
        <DIV>
        <DIV>On 11 Dec 2008, at 12:55, Robert Riversong wrote:</DIV><BR=20
        class=3DApple-interchange-newline>
        <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
          <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
            <TBODY>
            <TR>
              <TD vAlign=3Dtop>
                <DIV>Icynene vs straw is a good example of the =
difficulty in=20
                making appropriate choices of "green" materials.</DIV>
                <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
                <DIV>While I don't think that spray foams should be used =
in new=20
                construction, stuffing straw into existing walls for a=20
                retrofit/upgrade is not a sensible option and with a =
limited=20
                wall cavity Icynene may be the best alternative for =
renovation.=20
                Even for new construction, straw bales - with their low =
R-value=20
                per inch (=E2=89=881.45, about the same as lumber) may =
not be the best=20
                choice.</DIV>
                <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
                <DIV>Besides having no global warming or ozone-depleting =

                installation by-products, Icynene has only a little more =

                embodied energy per cubic foot than fiberglass (not =
that&nbsp;I=20
                would recommend fiberglass for anything), typically less =

                installed embodied energy (since framing bays are not =
generally=20
                completely filled) and better efficiency payback. </DIV>
                <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
                <DIV>Best use of remaining fossil energy and =
petrochemicals? Not=20
                so simple to discern.<BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 12/11/08, =
Michelle=20
                Smith Mullarkey <I>&lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"=20
                moz-do-not-send=3D"true">[log in to unmask]</A>&gt;</I></B> =

                wrote:<BR></DIV>
                <BLOCKQUOTE=20
                style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">
                  <DIV id=3Dyiv1294920483>Point taken.&nbsp; I =
admittedly was=20
                  thinking of products like Icynene vs. straw, but it =
seems=20
                  fossil fuels really are part of our entire =
world.<BR><BR>On=20
                  12/10/2008 6:21 PM, Robert Riversong wrote:=20
                  <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
                    <TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
                      <TBODY>
                      <TR>
                        <TD=20
                        style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: inherit; font-size-adjust: =
inherit; font-stretch: inherit"=20
                        vAlign=3Dtop>
                          <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000bf><FONT =
color=3D#000000>--- On=20
                          <STRONG>Wed, 12/10/08, Michelle Smith =
Mullarkey <I><A=20
                          class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E=20
                          href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" =
target=3D_blank=20
                          rel=3Dnofollow=20
                          =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</A></I></STRONG>=20
                          wrote:</FONT></FONT></DIV>
                          <BLOCKQUOTE=20
                          style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">
                            <DIV id=3Dyiv16816363><FONT=20
                            color=3D#0000bf><STRONG><FONT=20
                            color=3D#000000>&nbsp;Fossil fuel is still =
used to=20
                            manufacture and transport the majority of =
green=20
                            building products (not <I>natural =
</I>building=20
                            products such as straw bales)...=20
                            </FONT></STRONG></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
                          <DIV><FONT=20
                          =
color=3D#0000bf><STRONG></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
                          <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000bf><STRONG>I'm afraid =
that=20
                          fossil fuels are used for the production of =
most straw=20
                          and since some of it is coming from Canada, =
there's=20
                          also transportation costs. "Natural" building=20
                          materials are not necessarily immune from the=20
                          environmental costs of other materials.=20
                          =
</STRONG></FONT></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV></=
BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>=
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>=


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Date:         Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:21:14 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              William C Badger AIA <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         William C Badger AIA <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: breathability
Comments: To: Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
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The theory for stand-alone new buildings is one thing, but if we are
trying to reuse and remodel in order to preserve the embodied energy of
our older buildings, we have to address the needs of those buildings as
well. Fortunately, the tear it down and build new and green mentality
seems to have lost credibility and it is becoming accepted that reusing
may be the greenest thing we can do. <br>
<br>
Stain may be fine for certain applications, but white stain does not
cut it on a 19th Century Greek Revival building. There are many
applications where paint is the only suitable coating and our wall
sandwich has to accept that.<br>
<br>
I have been on the scaffolding and seen soggy paper mache that was once
cellulose insulation pulled out of walls. Try telling the owners of a
late 18th Century library that all the books and shelves need to be
removed and the wood paneled walls painted with vapor barrier paint.
For that matter, any old house with an historic or just well finished
interior is not a candidate for an interior vapor barrier. I agree that
caulking and sealing are a priority. A number of years ago I was
admiring how much of the paint had pealed off an old building converted
into a restaurant. The plugs where insulation had been blown in were
obvious. I asked when the building was insulated and was told three
years before. When did the paint start to fall off? Six months later.
The interior was rough boards with plenty of gaps. Some insulation
salesman had sold the owners a bill of goods without mentioning or
understanding what the result would be. I can't remember if the whole
problem later got buried under vinyl or not.<br>
<br>
I would pose a typical problem building for group comments. A late 19th
Century structure with some timber frame and some stick built walls.
The bulk of the walls are uninsulated with clapboards nailed directly
to the studs (no sheathing). The interior walls are lath and plaster
with 1/2" Celetex over it and 1/4" plywood paneling over that. It has a
stone foundation and slate roof. The attic is vented and the attic
floor is insulated with a nominal 12" of fiberglass, but electricians
over the years have done their best to rearrange it. The paint tends to
hold fairly well, but is a mix of relatively new coatings and what
ancient bits have still hung on. Will dense pack cellulose exert enough
pressure to pop clapboards off (small cut nails are what was used)?
Will moisture transfer peal the paint? This is not unlike much of our
old building stock. The blown in insulation peddlers of years ago sold
many owners a solution that resulted in pealing paint and vinyl siding
ended up covering the problem. Can the new generation of materials
successfully address a building like this without such extensive and
expensive measures that it doesn't happen?<br>
<br>
Bill<br>
<br>
Robert Riversong wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:[log in to unmask]"
 type="cite">
  <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
    <tbody>
      <tr>
        <td
 style="font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;"
 valign="top">
        <div id="yiv1985117584"><br>
        <br>
--- On <b>Mon, 12/15/08, William C Badger AIA <i><a
 class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
 href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</a></i></b>
wrote:<br>
        <blockquote
 style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">
          <div>Walls are a sandwich of materials that all have to work
together, but I have not heard anything said about exterior paint. In
new construction clapboard siding should be back primed and the idea of
providing a venting plane behind the siding is promising, </div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div><strong><font color="#007f40">Back-priming will
significantly prolong the life of the exterior finish (and probably the
siding) because it reduces the permeability of the wood siding on both
flanks. But ideally, both back-priming and front-face finish are
breathable, unless a pressure-equalized and well-drained and ventilated
rainscreen&nbsp;is used to eliminate pressure differentials across the
siding.</font></strong></div>
          <div><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div>
          <div><strong><font color="#007f40">I think that exterior
paint is a bad idea, as it creates a surface film that is less
permeable and will eventually fail and require scraping (or worse,
high--pressure washing) before refinish. Solid color water-based stains
have enough UV resistance to protect the wood, are breatheable, and
don't have a survace film which requires excessive maintenance.</font></strong></div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>...but when renovating old buildings those are usually
not options. The standard rule in preservation was/is to not insulate
the exterior walls if there is no interior vapor barrier. Insulate the
attic floor and tighten up the building, but spraying in loose
cellulose was an invitation to loosing the paint off the outside. I
think a lot of vinyl siding was sold to fix paint problems caused by
blown in insulation. </div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div><strong><font color="#007f40">Don't blame the
insulation. In fact, cellulose insulation - because it is so
hygroscopic and can safetly store 30% of its weight in water reversibly
- is far less likely to contribute to in-wall moisture problems. While
it's true that insulating a formerly open wall cavity (that could
easily dry by convection and in which inside sheathing temperatures are
close to room temperatures) could lead to condensation and possible
paint peeling problems, the source of the moisture is unlikely to be
vapor diffusion from lack of vapor barrier.</font></strong></div>
          <div><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div>
          <div><strong><font color="#007f40">A latex vapor barrier
primer can be used on the interior (in addition to careful air sealing
and caulking) to reduce the small amount of moiture contributed by
diffusion in a house with poor humidity control (unvented cookstoves,
unvented dryers, no bath exhaust fans, etc).</font></strong></div>
          <div><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div>
          <div><strong><font color="#007f40">Diffusion contributes as
little as 1% of the thermal envelope moisture load, while air transport
contributes up to 99%. In an old house, the moisture source could be a
wet basement or crawlspace, unsealed utility penetrations in the wall
plates (or balloon framing), roof leaks, ice dams, plumbing leaks or
saturated walls next to showers without surround.</font></strong></div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div>Now we have the next generation of insulation materials
and breathing walls sound like an interesting concept. Vapor barriers
and interior surfaces are being discussed, but what about the exterior?
Are we going to be condensing the wall's breath somewhere it will
create problems?<br>
          <br>
          <strong><font color="#007f40">A rule of thumb that has held
me in good stead for 30 years is to keep the exterior skin of a wall at
least 5 times as vapor permeable as the interior skin. On an old
masonry-clad building, this shouldn't be a problem (as long as proper
air-gap and weep-hole detailing was done), and masonry has a high
tolerance and storage capacity for moisture. </font></strong></div>
          <div><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div>
          <div><strong><font color="#007f40">However, multiple layers
of oil-based paints, particularly with lead or zinc oxide, will so
effectively seal the exterior that only peeling will relieve
outwardly-driven moisture. In such a case, complete paint removal and
refinishing would be sensible.</font></strong></div>
        </blockquote>
        </div>
        </td>
      </tr>
    </tbody>
  </table>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Dec 2008 11:01:40 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: breathability
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
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   I don=B9t think that cellulose or stain finishes, regardless of historic
appropriateness, are necessarily the problem in past renovations.  I think =
a
more wholistic design could avoid pealing paint and would try to understand
different configurations considering installation method, density, air
barriers and durable finishes.
   The situation is delicate with the setting of the old paint with =B3no
insulation=B2 condition.  The old paint will fail in fairly short term, so
longer term solutions can be considering in tandem with renovating for more
energy efficiency.
   It seems like long term efficiency is higher priority than preserving
paint? =20
These are the balances we are looking at when renovating for energy
efficiency.  Long term vs. short term investments/comfort/direction/etc.
    As far as historic appropriateness.  I was talking with a historic
preservation timberframer recently who  said they thought that all of the
craftsfolk that originally built these structures were interested in the
best tools and methods of their time.  So its interesting to think about
this in terms of historic appropriateness and how this could affect the
design.  It brings up the idea of =B3living history=B2.  I like this idea.  We
begin to think about historic appropriateness in terms of more than just
visual characteristics and add structure, methods and process.  There are
probably more to add.

Ben


On 12/16/08 10:21 AM, "William C Badger AIA"
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> The theory for stand-alone new buildings is one thing, but if we are tryi=
ng to
> reuse and remodel in order to preserve the embodied energy of our older
> buildings, we have to address the needs of those buildings as well.
> Fortunately, the tear it down and build new and green mentality seems to =
have
> lost credibility and it is becoming accepted that reusing may be the gree=
nest
> thing we can do.=20
>=20
> Stain may be fine for certain applications, but white stain does not cut =
it on
> a 19th Century Greek Revival building. There are many applications where =
paint
> is the only suitable coating and our wall sandwich has to accept that.
>=20
> I have been on the scaffolding and seen soggy paper mache that was once
> cellulose insulation pulled out of walls. Try telling the owners of a lat=
e
> 18th Century library that all the books and shelves need to be removed an=
d the
> wood paneled walls painted with vapor barrier paint. For that matter, any=
 old
> house with an historic or just well finished interior is not a candidate =
for
> an interior vapor barrier. I agree that caulking and sealing are a priori=
ty. A
> number of years ago I was admiring how much of the paint had pealed off a=
n old
> building converted into a restaurant. The plugs where insulation had been
> blown in were obvious. I asked when the building was insulated and was to=
ld
> three years before. When did the paint start to fall off? Six months late=
r.
> The interior was rough boards with plenty of gaps. Some insulation salesm=
an
> had sold the owners a bill of goods without mentioning or understanding w=
hat
> the result would be. I can't remember if the whole problem later got buri=
ed
> under vinyl or not.
>=20
> I would pose a typical problem building for group comments. A late 19th
> Century structure with some timber frame and some stick built walls. The =
bulk
> of the walls are uninsulated with clapboards nailed directly to the studs=
 (no
> sheathing). The interior walls are lath and plaster with 1/2" Celetex ove=
r it
> and 1/4" plywood paneling over that. It has a stone foundation and slate =
roof.
> The attic is vented and the attic floor is insulated with a nominal 12" o=
f
> fiberglass, but electricians over the years have done their best to rearr=
ange
> it. The paint tends to hold fairly well, but is a mix of relatively new
> coatings and what ancient bits have still hung on. Will dense pack cellul=
ose
> exert enough pressure to pop clapboards off (small cut nails are what was
> used)? Will moisture transfer peal the paint? This is not unlike much of =
our
> old building stock. The blown in insulation peddlers of years ago sold ma=
ny
> owners a solution that resulted in pealing paint and vinyl siding ended u=
p
> covering the problem. Can the new generation of materials successfully ad=
dress
> a building like this without such extensive and expensive measures that i=
t
> doesn't happen?
>=20
> Bill
>=20
> Robert Riversong wrote:
>>   =20
>>  =20
>> =20
>> --- On Mon, 12/15/08, William C Badger AIA <wcbadger@BADGERANDASSOCIATES=
.COM>
>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> =20
>>>  Walls are a sandwich of materials that all have to work together, but =
I
>>> have not heard anything said about exterior paint. In new construction
>>> clapboard siding should be back primed and the idea of providing a vent=
ing
>>> plane behind the siding is promising,
>>>  =20
>>>  Back-priming will significantly prolong the life of the exterior finis=
h
>>> (and probably the siding) because it reduces the permeability of the wo=
od
>>> siding on both flanks. But ideally, both back-priming and front-face fi=
nish
>>> are breathable, unless a pressure-equalized and well-drained and ventil=
ated
>>> rainscreen is used to eliminate pressure differentials across the sidin=
g.
>>>  =20
>>>  I think that exterior paint is a bad idea, as it creates a surface fil=
m
>>> that is less permeable and will eventually fail and require scraping (o=
r
>>> worse, high--pressure washing) before refinish. Solid color water-based
>>> stains have enough UV resistance to protect the wood, are breatheable, =
and
>>> don't have a survace film which requires excessive maintenance.
>>>  =20
>>>  ...but when renovating old buildings those are usually not options. Th=
e
>>> standard rule in preservation was/is to not insulate the exterior walls=
 if
>>> there is no interior vapor barrier. Insulate the attic floor and tighte=
n up
>>> the building, but spraying in loose cellulose was an invitation to loos=
ing
>>> the paint off the outside. I think a lot of vinyl siding was sold to fi=
x
>>> paint problems caused by blown in insulation.
>>>  =20
>>>  Don't blame the insulation. In fact, cellulose insulation - because it=
 is
>>> so hygroscopic and can safetly store 30% of its weight in water reversi=
bly -
>>> is far less likely to contribute to in-wall moisture problems. While it=
's
>>> true that insulating a formerly open wall cavity (that could easily dry=
 by
>>> convection and in which inside sheathing temperatures are close to room
>>> temperatures) could lead to condensation and possible paint peeling
>>> problems, the source of the moisture is unlikely to be vapor diffusion =
from
>>> lack of vapor barrier.
>>>  =20
>>>  A latex vapor barrier primer can be used on the interior (in addition =
to
>>> careful air sealing and caulking) to reduce the small amount of moiture
>>> contributed by diffusion in a house with poor humidity control (unvente=
d
>>> cookstoves, unvented dryers, no bath exhaust fans, etc).
>>>  =20
>>>  Diffusion contributes as little as 1% of the thermal envelope moisture
>>> load, while air transport contributes up to 99%. In an old house, the
>>> moisture source could be a wet basement or crawlspace, unsealed utility
>>> penetrations in the wall plates (or balloon framing), roof leaks, ice d=
ams,
>>> plumbing leaks or saturated walls next to showers without surround.
>>>  =20
>>>  Now we have the next generation of insulation materials and breathing =
walls
>>> sound like an interesting concept. Vapor barriers and interior surfaces=
 are
>>> being discussed, but what about the exterior? Are we going to be conden=
sing
>>> the wall's breath somewhere it will create problems?
>>> =20
>>>  A rule of thumb that has held me in good stead for 30 years is to keep=
 the
>>> exterior skin of a wall at least 5 times as vapor permeable as the inte=
rior
>>> skin. On an old masonry-clad building, this shouldn't be a problem (as =
long
>>> as proper air-gap and weep-hole detailing was done), and masonry has a =
high
>>> tolerance and storage capacity for moisture.
>>>  =20
>>>  However, multiple layers of oil-based paints, particularly with lead o=
r
>>> zinc oxide, will so effectively seal the exterior that only peeling wil=
l
>>> relieve outwardly-driven moisture. In such a case, complete paint remov=
al
>>> and refinishing would be sensible.
>>> =20
>> =20
>>    =20
>=20


Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
Benjamin Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and Nature
802.454.1167




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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: breathability</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> &nbs=
p;&nbsp;I don&#8217;t think that cellulose or stain finishes, regardless of =
historic appropriateness, are necessarily the problem in past renovations. &=
nbsp;I think a more wholistic design could avoid pealing paint and would try=
 to understand different configurations considering installation method, den=
sity, air barriers and durable finishes.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The situation is delicate with the setting of the old pai=
nt with &#8220;no insulation&#8221; condition. &nbsp;The old paint will fail=
 in fairly short term, so longer term solutions can be considering in tandem=
 with renovating for more energy efficiency.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It seems like long term efficiency is higher priority tha=
n preserving paint? &nbsp;<BR>
These are the balances we are looking at when renovating for energy efficie=
ncy. &nbsp;Long term vs. short term investments/comfort/direction/etc.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;As far as historic appropriateness. &nbsp;I was tal=
king with a historic preservation timberframer recently who &nbsp;said they =
thought that all of the craftsfolk that originally built these structures we=
re interested in the best tools and methods of their time. &nbsp;So its inte=
resting to think about this in terms of historic appropriateness and how thi=
s could affect the design. &nbsp;It brings up the idea of &#8220;living hist=
ory&#8221;. &nbsp;I like this idea. &nbsp;We begin to think about historic a=
ppropriateness in terms of more than just visual characteristics and add str=
ucture, methods and process. &nbsp;There are probably more to add. <BR>
<BR>
Ben<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 12/16/08 10:21 AM, &quot;William C Badger AIA&quot; &lt;wcbadger@BADGERA=
NDASSOCIATES.COM&gt; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYL=
E=3D'font-size:12.0px'>The theory for stand-alone new buildings is one thing, =
but if we are trying to reuse and remodel in order to preserve the embodied =
energy of our older buildings, we have to address the needs of those buildin=
gs as well. Fortunately, the tear it down and build new and green mentality =
seems to have lost credibility and it is becoming accepted that reusing may =
be the greenest thing we can do. <BR>
<BR>
Stain may be fine for certain applications, but white stain does not cut it=
 on a 19th Century Greek Revival building. There are many applications where=
 paint is the only suitable coating and our wall sandwich has to accept that=
.<BR>
<BR>
I have been on the scaffolding and seen soggy paper mache that was once cel=
lulose insulation pulled out of walls. Try telling the owners of a late 18th=
 Century library that all the books and shelves need to be removed and the w=
ood paneled walls painted with vapor barrier paint. For that matter, any old=
 house with an historic or just well finished interior is not a candidate fo=
r an interior vapor barrier. I agree that caulking and sealing are a priorit=
y. A number of years ago I was admiring how much of the paint had pealed off=
 an old building converted into a restaurant. The plugs where insulation had=
 been blown in were obvious. I asked when the building was insulated and was=
 told three years before. When did the paint start to fall off? Six months l=
ater. The interior was rough boards with plenty of gaps. Some insulation sal=
esman had sold the owners a bill of goods without mentioning or understandin=
g what the result would be. I can't remember if the whole problem later got =
buried under vinyl or not.<BR>
<BR>
I would pose a typical problem building for group comments. A late 19th Cen=
tury structure with some timber frame and some stick built walls. The bulk o=
f the walls are uninsulated with clapboards nailed directly to the studs (no=
 sheathing). The interior walls are lath and plaster with 1/2&quot; Celetex =
over it and 1/4&quot; plywood paneling over that. It has a stone foundation =
and slate roof. The attic is vented and the attic floor is insulated with a =
nominal 12&quot; of fiberglass, but electricians over the years have done th=
eir best to rearrange it. The paint tends to hold fairly well, but is a mix =
of relatively new coatings and what ancient bits have still hung on. Will de=
nse pack cellulose exert enough pressure to pop clapboards off (small cut na=
ils are what was used)? Will moisture transfer peal the paint? This is not u=
nlike much of our old building stock. The blown in insulation peddlers of ye=
ars ago sold many owners a solution that resulted in pealing paint and vinyl=
 siding ended up covering the problem. Can the new generation of materials s=
uccessfully address a building like this without such extensive and expensiv=
e measures that it doesn't happen?<BR>
<BR>
Bill<BR>
<BR>
Robert Riversong wrote: <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYL=
E=3D'font-size:12.0px'> &nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
--- On <B>Mon, 12/15/08, William C Badger AIA <I>&lt;wcbadger@BADGERANDASSO=
CIATES.COM&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">&lt;mailto:=
[log in to unmask]&gt;</a> </I></B>wrote:<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYL=
E=3D'font-size:12.0px'> Walls are a sandwich of materials that all have to wor=
k together, but I have not heard anything said about exterior paint. In new =
construction clapboard siding should be back primed and the idea of providin=
g a venting plane behind the siding is promising, <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#007F40"><B>Back-priming will significantly prolong the =
life of the exterior finish (and probably the siding) because it reduces the=
 permeability of the wood siding on both flanks. But ideally, both back-prim=
ing and front-face finish are breathable, unless a pressure-equalized and we=
ll-drained and ventilated rainscreen is used to eliminate pressure different=
ials across the siding.<BR>
</B></FONT> &nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#007F40"><B>I think that exterior paint is a bad idea, a=
s it creates a surface film that is less permeable and will eventually fail =
and require scraping (or worse, high--pressure washing) before refinish. Sol=
id color water-based stains have enough UV resistance to protect the wood, a=
re breatheable, and don't have a survace film which requires excessive maint=
enance.<BR>
</B></FONT> &nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;...but when renovating old buildings those are usually not options. T=
he standard rule in preservation was/is to not insulate the exterior walls i=
f there is no interior vapor barrier. Insulate the attic floor and tighten u=
p the building, but spraying in loose cellulose was an invitation to loosing=
 the paint off the outside. I think a lot of vinyl siding was sold to fix pa=
int problems caused by blown in insulation. <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#007F40"><B>Don't blame the insulation. In fact, cellulo=
se insulation - because it is so hygroscopic and can safetly store 30% of it=
s weight in water reversibly - is far less likely to contribute to in-wall m=
oisture problems. While it's true that insulating a formerly open wall cavit=
y (that could easily dry by convection and in which inside sheathing tempera=
tures are close to room temperatures) could lead to condensation and possibl=
e paint peeling problems, the source of the moisture is unlikely to be vapor=
 diffusion from lack of vapor barrier.<BR>
</B></FONT> &nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#007F40"><B>A latex vapor barrier primer can be used on =
the interior (in addition to careful air sealing and caulking) to reduce the=
 small amount of moiture contributed by diffusion in a house with poor humid=
ity control (unvented cookstoves, unvented dryers, no bath exhaust fans, etc=
).<BR>
</B></FONT> &nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#007F40"><B>Diffusion contributes as little as 1% of the=
 thermal envelope moisture load, while air transport contributes up to 99%. =
In an old house, the moisture source could be a wet basement or crawlspace, =
unsealed utility penetrations in the wall plates (or balloon framing), roof =
leaks, ice dams, plumbing leaks or saturated walls next to showers without s=
urround.<BR>
</B></FONT> &nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;Now we have the next generation of insulation materials and breathing=
 walls sound like an interesting concept. Vapor barriers and interior surfac=
es are being discussed, but what about the exterior? Are we going to be cond=
ensing the wall's breath somewhere it will create problems?<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#007F40"><B>A rule of thumb that has held me in good ste=
ad for 30 years is to keep the exterior skin of a wall at least 5 times as v=
apor permeable as the interior skin. On an old masonry-clad building, this s=
houldn't be a problem (as long as proper air-gap and weep-hole detailing was=
 done), and masonry has a high tolerance and storage capacity for moisture. =
<BR>
</B></FONT> &nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<FONT COLOR=3D"#007F40"><B>However, multiple layers of oil-based paints=
, particularly with lead or zinc oxide, will so effectively seal the exterio=
r that only peeling will relieve outwardly-driven moisture. In such a case, =
complete paint removal and refinishing would be sensible.<BR>
</B></FONT> <BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><FONT FACE=3D"Hoefler Text, Times New Roman"><SP=
AN STYLE=3D'font-size:14.0px'><I>Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve=
 neither.<BR>
</I>Benjamin Franklin<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0px'>__________________________________________________________<B=
R>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><SPAN =
STYLE=3D'font-size:14.0px'>Ben Graham<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:14.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Hoefler Text, Time=
s New Roman">www.<B>naturaldesignbuild</B>.us <BR>
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Light"><B>Integrating Culture and Na=
ture</B></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Hoefler Text, Times New Roman">802.454.1167<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0px'><BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT>
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--B_3312270102_5075458--
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:55:54 -0800
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: breathability
Comments: To: William C Badger AIA <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
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--- On Tue, 12/16/08, William C Badger AIA <[log in to unmask]
m> wrote:


Stain may be fine for certain applications, but white stain does not cut it=
 on a 19th Century Greek Revival building. There are many applications wher=
e paint is the only suitable coating and our wall sandwich has to accept th=
at.
=A0
Acrylic water-based primers and paints are relatively=A0vapor permeable, as=
 long as they don't have lead or zinc oxide pigments.=20

I have been on the scaffolding and seen soggy paper mache that was once cel=
lulose insulation pulled out of walls.=20
=A0
Without the forensic analysis that would determine the source of the moistu=
re, that anecdote indicates nothing.=20
=A0
Try telling the owners of a late 18th Century library that all the books an=
d shelves need to be removed and the wood paneled walls painted with vapor =
barrier paint. For that matter, any old house with an historic or just well=
 finished interior is not a candidate for an interior vapor barrier.=20
=A0
Many of the early cellulose retrofits had insufficient density to prevent t=
he air movement that is the primary vector of moisture in walls. If properl=
y dense-packed, and interior humidity levels are appropriately controlled (=
and there are no sources of bulk moisture, such as wet basements or crawl s=
paces or ice dam leakage), cellulose retrofits do not require a vapor retar=
der. In fact, one cellulose manufacturer - Applegate - will void their warr=
antee if a vapor retarder IS used.
=A0
More attention is being paid to the "flow-through" concept of moisture cont=
rol, allowing drying in both directions.=20
=A0

In 1979 a field study in Portland, Oregon (4,792 degree days) concluded the=
re is no risk of moisture damage in mild climates without a vapor barrier=
=20
=A0
A second major field study was done in Spokane, Washington (6,835 degree da=
ys) by George Tsongas, Ph.D. P.E. Professor of Mechanical Engineering at Po=
rtland State University. The exterior walls of 103 homes were opened, 79 wi=
th retrofitted insulation and 24 uninsulated as a control group. =93This st=
udy strongly concludes that the addition of wall insulation without a vapor=
 barrier does not cause moisture problems in existing homes in climates sim=
ilar to that of Spokane.=94 Bonneville Power Administration provided fundin=
g for this study.
=A0
A 2004 study released by building scientist Erkki Kokko of Finland, =94Hygr=
oscopic Cellulose Fiber Insulated Structures=94 found the use of permeable =
building materials resulted in improved indoor air quality. The absence of =
a vapor barrier, such as polyethylene film, allowed the wall to absorb and =
desorb relative humidity. This enables the interior relative humidity to re=
main more constant and comfortable to the occupants.
They also found a 30% reduction in the carbon dioxide levels.
=A0
The EEBA=92s Builder=92s Guide for Cold Climates states in Appendix III, =
=93Polyethylene on the inside of building assemblies in cold, mixed-humid, =
mixed-dry, hot-humid, and hot-dry climates is not generally a good
idea.=94 =93A classic flow-through wall assembly should have a permeable in=
terior surface and finish and permeable exterior sheathing and permeable bu=
ilding paper drainage plane.=94 This permits drying to both the interior an=
d exterior.
=A0
In a December 2001 presentation in Proceedings of Thermal Performance of Bu=
ilding Envelopes VIII, Asst. Prof. John Straube stated =93In many practical=
 situations, a low permeance vapour barrier will not improve hygrothermal p=
erformance, and may in fact increase the likelihood of damaging condensatio=
n or trap moisture in the system. In some cases, a low-permeance vapour bar=
rier may be called for, but in many practical
high performance enclosures, none is needed, and eliminating them will actu=
ally improve performance by encouraging drying and avoiding solar-driven di=
ffusion wetting.=20
=A0
I would pose a typical problem building for group comments. A late 19th Cen=
tury structure with some timber frame and some stick built walls. The bulk =
of the walls are uninsulated with clapboards nailed directly to the studs (=
no sheathing). The interior walls are lath and plaster with 1/2" Celetex ov=
er it and 1/4" plywood paneling over that. It has a stone foundation and sl=
ate roof. The attic is vented and the attic floor is insulated with a nomin=
al 12" of fiberglass, but electricians over the years have done their best =
to rearrange it. The paint tends to hold fairly well, but is a mix of relat=
ively new coatings and what ancient bits have still hung on. Will dense pac=
k cellulose exert enough pressure to pop clapboards off (small cut nails ar=
e what was used)? Will moisture transfer peal the paint?=20

As long as moisture sources are mitigated (stone basement?) and interior hu=
midity levels=A0are controlled with appropriate ventilation, this might be =
a good candidate for dense-pack cellulose. It's unlikely that the installat=
ion would pop the cladding nails, as aged wood has amazing holding power, u=
nless previous rusting has deteriorated the bond.
=A0
Ironically the potential problem in this case might be the presence of an i=
nterior vapor barrier - the Celotex, with its double foil facings.=A0=A0Sin=
ce the exterior cladding has no weather-resistant barrier (not even sheathi=
ng), there is a potential for wind-driven moisture penetration, particularl=
y if there is a high exposure level (no trees or other adjacent buildings a=
s protection).
=A0
This wall structure would have to do all its drying to the outside; but sin=
ce there should be little=A0moisture drive from the inside,=A0the outward d=
rying force may not be sufficient to lift the paint.=A0
=A0
But, if I were interested in preserving this building, I would consider rem=
oving (and either saving or replacing) the exterior cladding and installing=
 a weather-resistant barrier (probably 15# felt or grade D building paper).=
 Without such a secondary drainage plane, it's likely that you would be up =
on that scaffolding again removing soggy cellulose and rotted wood.
=A0
Removing the cladding would also allow=A0the cellulose to be blown in behin=
d InsulWeb netting for=A0a more complete=A0installation (around knee braces=
, etc), then covered=A0with WRB and siding.=A0
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><BR><BR>--- On <B>Tue, 12/16/08, William C Ba=
dger AIA <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid">
<DIV>Stain may be fine for certain applications, but white stain does not c=
ut it on a 19th Century Greek Revival building. There are many applications=
 where paint is the only suitable coating and our wall sandwich has to acce=
pt that.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#007f40>Acrylic water-based primers and paints a=
re relatively&nbsp;vapor permeable, as long as they don't have lead or zinc=
 oxide pigments. </FONT></STRONG><BR><BR>I have been on the scaffolding and=
 seen soggy paper mache that was once cellulose insulation pulled out of wa=
lls. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#007f40>Without the forensic analysis that would=
 determine the source of the moisture, that anecdote indicates nothing. </F=
ONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Try telling the owners of a late 18th Century library that all the boo=
ks and shelves need to be removed and the wood paneled walls painted with v=
apor barrier paint. For that matter, any old house with an historic or just=
 well finished interior is not a candidate for an interior vapor barrier. <=
/DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#007f40>Many of the early cellulose retrofits ha=
d insufficient density to prevent the air movement that is the primary vect=
or of moisture in walls. If properly dense-packed, and interior humidity le=
vels are appropriately controlled (and there are no sources of bulk moistur=
e, such as wet basements or crawl spaces or ice dam leakage), cellulose ret=
rofits do not require a vapor retarder. </FONT></STRONG><FONT color=3D#007f=
40><STRONG>In fact, one cellulose manufacturer - Applegate - will void thei=
r warrantee if a vapor retarder <U>IS</U> used.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#007f40></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#007f40>More attention is being paid to the "flo=
w-through" concept of moisture control, allowing drying in both directions.=
 </FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#007f40></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#007f40><FONT face=3DTimes-Roman>
<P align=3Dleft>In 1979 a field study in Portland, Oregon (4,792 degree day=
s) concluded there is no risk of moisture damage in mild climates without a=
 vapor barrier </DIV>
<P align=3Dleft>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P align=3Dleft>A second major field study was done in Spokane, Washington =
(6,835 degree days) by George Tsongas, Ph.D. P.E. Professor of Mechanical E=
ngineering at Portland State University. The exterior walls of 103 homes we=
re opened, 79 with retrofitted insulation and 24 uninsulated as a control g=
roup. =93</FONT><I><FONT face=3DTimes-Italic>This study strongly concludes =
that the addition of wall insulation without a vapor barrier does not cause=
 moisture problems in existing homes in climates similar to that of Spokane=
.=94 </I></FONT><FONT face=3DTimes-Roman>Bonneville Power Administration pr=
ovided funding for this study.</DIV>
<P align=3Dleft>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P align=3Dleft>A 2004 study released by building scientist Erkki Kokko of =
Finland, </FONT><I><FONT face=3DTimes-Italic>=94Hygroscopic Cellulose Fiber=
 Insulated Structures=94 </I></FONT><FONT face=3DTimes-Roman>found the use =
of permeable building materials resulted in improved indoor air quality. Th=
e absence of a vapor barrier, such as polyethylene film, allowed the wall t=
o absorb and desorb relative humidity. This enables the interior relative h=
umidity to remain more constant and comfortable to the occupants.</DIV>
<P align=3Dleft>They also found a 30% reduction in the carbon dioxide level=
s.</DIV>
<P align=3Dleft>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P align=3Dleft>The EEBA=92s Builder=92s Guide for Cold Climates states in =
Appendix III, </FONT><I><FONT face=3DTimes-Italic>=93Polyethylene on the in=
side of building assemblies in cold, mixed-humid, mixed-dry, hot-humid, and=
 hot-dry climates is not generally a good</DIV>
<P align=3Dleft>idea.=94 =93A classic flow-through wall assembly should hav=
e a permeable interior surface and finish and permeable exterior sheathing =
and permeable building paper drainage plane.=94 </I></FONT><FONT face=3DTim=
es-Roman>This permits drying to both the interior and exterior.</DIV>
<P align=3Dleft>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P align=3Dleft>In a December 2001 presentation in Proceedings of Thermal P=
erformance of Building Envelopes VIII, Asst. Prof. John Straube stated </FO=
NT><I><FONT face=3DTimes-Italic>=93In many practical situations, a low perm=
eance vapour barrier will not improve hygrothermal performance, and may in =
fact increase the likelihood of damaging condensation or trap moisture in t=
he system. In some cases, a low-permeance vapour barrier may be called for,=
 but in many practical</DIV>
<P align=3Dleft>high performance enclosures, none is needed, and eliminatin=
g them will actually improve performance by encouraging drying and avoiding=
 solar-driven diffusion wetting. </DIV>
<P align=3Dleft>&nbsp;</DIV></I></FONT></FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV>I would pose a typical problem building for group comments. A late 19t=
h Century structure with some timber frame and some stick built walls. The =
bulk of the walls are uninsulated with clapboards nailed directly to the st=
uds (no sheathing). The interior walls are lath and plaster with 1/2" Celet=
ex over it and 1/4" plywood paneling over that. It has a stone foundation a=
nd slate roof. The attic is vented and the attic floor is insulated with a =
nominal 12" of fiberglass, but electricians over the years have done their =
best to rearrange it. The paint tends to hold fairly well, but is a mix of =
relatively new coatings and what ancient bits have still hung on. Will dens=
e pack cellulose exert enough pressure to pop clapboards off (small cut nai=
ls are what was used)? Will moisture transfer peal the paint? <BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#007f40><STRONG>As long as moisture sources are mitigate=
d (stone basement?) and interior humidity levels&nbsp;are controlled with a=
ppropriate ventilation, this might be a good candidate for dense-pack cellu=
lose. It's unlikely that the installation would pop the cladding nails, as =
aged wood has amazing holding power, unless previous rusting has deteriorat=
ed the bond.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#007f40><STRONG></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#007f40><STRONG>Ironically the potential problem in this=
 case might be the presence of an interior vapor barrier - </STRONG></FONT>=
<FONT color=3D#007f40><STRONG>t</STRONG></FONT><FONT color=3D#007f40><STRON=
G>he Celotex, with its double foil facings.&nbsp;&nbsp;Since the exterior c=
ladding has no weather-resistant barrier (not even sheathing), there is a p=
otential for wind-driven moisture penetration, particularly if there is a h=
igh exposure level (no trees or other adjacent buildings as protection).</S=
TRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#007f40></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#007f40>This wall structure would have to do all=
 its drying to the outside; but since there should be little&nbsp;moisture =
drive from the inside,&nbsp;the outward drying force may not be sufficient =
to lift the paint.&nbsp;</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#007f40></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#007f40>But, if I were interested in preserving =
this building, I would consider removing (and either saving or replacing) t=
he exterior cladding and installing a weather-resistant barrier (probably 1=
5# felt or grade D building paper). Without such a secondary drainage plane=
, it's likely that you would be up on that scaffolding again removing soggy=
 cellulose and rotted wood.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#007f40></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#007f40>Removing the cladding would also allow&n=
bsp;the cellulose to be blown in behind InsulWeb netting for&nbsp;a more co=
mplete&nbsp;installation (around knee braces, etc), then covered&nbsp;with =
WRB and siding.&nbsp;</FONT></STRONG></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table>
--0-1311759708-1229446554=:69643--
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:06:37 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              William C Badger AIA <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         William C Badger AIA <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: breathability
Comments: To: Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
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One quick note. The Celotex is not foil faced foam insulation, but an
archaic material similar to Homasote. I think it is made of ground up
fibrous material of unknown origin.<br>
<br>
Bill<br>
<br>
Robert Riversong wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:[log in to unmask]"
 type="cite">
  <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
    <tbody>
      <tr>
        <td
 style="font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;"
 valign="top"><br>
        <br>
--- On <b>Tue, 12/16/08, William C Badger AIA <i><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</a></i></b>
wrote:<br>
        <blockquote
 style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">
          <div>Stain may be fine for certain applications, but white
stain does not cut it on a 19th Century Greek Revival building. There
are many applications where paint is the only suitable coating and our
wall sandwich has to accept that.</div>
          <div> </div>
          <div><strong><font color="#007f40">Acrylic water-based
primers and paints are relatively vapor permeable, as long as they
don't have lead or zinc oxide pigments. </font></strong><br>
          <br>
I have been on the scaffolding and seen soggy paper mache that was once
cellulose insulation pulled out of walls. </div>
          <div> </div>
          <div><strong><font color="#007f40">Without the forensic
analysis that would determine the source of the moisture, that anecdote
indicates nothing. </font></strong></div>
          <div> </div>
          <div>Try telling the owners of a late 18th Century library
that all the books and shelves need to be removed and the wood paneled
walls painted with vapor barrier paint. For that matter, any old house
with an historic or just well finished interior is not a candidate for
an interior vapor barrier. </div>
          <div> </div>
          <div><strong><font color="#007f40">Many of the early
cellulose retrofits had insufficient density to prevent the air
movement that is the primary vector of moisture in walls. If properly
dense-packed, and interior humidity levels are appropriately controlled
(and there are no sources of bulk moisture, such as wet basements or
crawl spaces or ice dam leakage), cellulose retrofits do not require a
vapor retarder. </font></strong><font color="#007f40"><strong>In fact,
one cellulose manufacturer - Applegate - will void their warrantee if a
vapor retarder <u>IS</u> used.</strong></font></div>
          <div><strong></strong> </div>
          <div><strong><font color="#007f40">More attention is being
paid to the "flow-through" concept of moisture control, allowing drying
in both directions. </font></strong></div>
          <div><strong></strong> </div>
          <div><strong><font color="#007f40"><font face="Times-Roman">
          </font></font></strong>
          <p align="left"><strong><font color="#007f40"><font
 face="Times-Roman">In 1979 a field study in Portland, Oregon (4,792
degree days) concluded there is no risk of moisture damage in mild
climates without a vapor barrier </font></font></strong></p>
          </div>
          <p align="left"><strong><font color="#007f40"><font
 face="Times-Roman"> 
          </font></font></strong></p>
          <p align="left"><strong><font color="#007f40"><font
 face="Times-Roman">A second major field study was done in Spokane,
Washington (6,835 degree days) by George Tsongas, Ph.D. P.E. Professor
of Mechanical Engineering at Portland State University. The exterior
walls of 103 homes were opened, 79 with retrofitted insulation and 24
uninsulated as a control group. “</font><i><font face="Times-Italic">This
study strongly concludes that the addition of wall insulation without a
vapor barrier does not cause moisture problems in existing homes in
climates similar to that of Spokane.” </font></i><font
 face="Times-Roman">Bonneville Power Administration provided funding
for this study.
          </font></font></strong></p>
          <p align="left"><strong><font color="#007f40"><font
 face="Times-Roman"> 
          </font></font></strong></p>
          <p align="left"><strong><font color="#007f40"><font
 face="Times-Roman">A 2004 study released by building scientist Erkki
Kokko of Finland, </font><i><font face="Times-Italic">”Hygroscopic
Cellulose Fiber Insulated Structures” </font></i><font
 face="Times-Roman">found the use of permeable building materials
resulted in improved indoor air quality. The absence of a vapor
barrier, such as polyethylene film, allowed the wall to absorb and
desorb relative humidity. This enables the interior relative humidity
to remain more constant and comfortable to the occupants.
          </font></font></strong></p>
          <p align="left"><strong><font color="#007f40"><font
 face="Times-Roman">They also found a 30% reduction in the carbon
dioxide levels.
          </font></font></strong></p>
          <p align="left"><strong><font color="#007f40"><font
 face="Times-Roman"> 
          </font></font></strong></p>
          <p align="left"><strong><font color="#007f40"><font
 face="Times-Roman">The EEBA’s Builder’s Guide for Cold Climates states
in Appendix III, </font><i><font face="Times-Italic">“Polyethylene on
the inside of building assemblies in cold, mixed-humid, mixed-dry,
hot-humid, and hot-dry climates is not generally a good
          </font></i></font></strong></p>
          <p align="left"><strong><font color="#007f40"><i><font
 face="Times-Italic">idea.” “A classic flow-through wall assembly
should have a permeable interior surface and finish and permeable
exterior sheathing and permeable building paper drainage plane.” </font></i><font
 face="Times-Roman">This permits drying to both the interior and
exterior.
          </font></font></strong></p>
          <p align="left"><strong><font color="#007f40"><font
 face="Times-Roman"> 
          </font></font></strong></p>
          <p align="left"><strong><font color="#007f40"><font
 face="Times-Roman">In a December 2001 presentation in Proceedings of
Thermal Performance of Building Envelopes VIII, Asst. Prof. John
Straube stated </font><i><font face="Times-Italic">“In many practical
situations, a low permeance vapour barrier will not improve
hygrothermal performance, and may in fact increase the likelihood of
damaging condensation or trap moisture in the system. In some cases, a
low-permeance vapour barrier may be called for, but in many practical
          </font></i></font></strong></p>
          <p align="left"><strong><font color="#007f40"><i><font
 face="Times-Italic">high performance enclosures, none is needed, and
eliminating them will actually improve performance by encouraging
drying and avoiding solar-driven diffusion wetting. </font></i></font></strong></p>
          <p align="left"><strong><font color="#007f40"><i><font
 face="Times-Italic"> </font></i></font></strong>
          </p>
          <div>I would pose a typical problem building for group
comments. A late 19th Century structure with some timber frame and some
stick built walls. The bulk of the walls are uninsulated with
clapboards nailed directly to the studs (no sheathing). The interior
walls are lath and plaster with 1/2" Celetex over it and 1/4" plywood
paneling over that. It has a stone foundation and slate roof. The attic
is vented and the attic floor is insulated with a nominal 12" of
fiberglass, but electricians over the years have done their best to
rearrange it. The paint tends to hold fairly well, but is a mix of
relatively new coatings and what ancient bits have still hung on. Will
dense pack cellulose exert enough pressure to pop clapboards off (small
cut nails are what was used)? Will moisture transfer peal the paint? <br>
          </div>
          <div><font color="#007f40"><strong>As long as moisture
sources are mitigated (stone basement?) and interior humidity
levels are controlled with appropriate ventilation, this might be a
good candidate for dense-pack cellulose. It's unlikely that the
installation would pop the cladding nails, as aged wood has amazing
holding power, unless previous rusting has deteriorated the bond.</strong></font></div>
          <div><font color="#007f40"><strong></strong></font> </div>
          <div><font color="#007f40"><strong>Ironically the potential
problem in this case might be the presence of an interior vapor barrier
- </strong></font><font color="#007f40"><strong>t</strong></font><font
 color="#007f40"><strong>he Celotex, with its double foil
facings.  Since the exterior cladding has no weather-resistant barrier
(not even sheathing), there is a potential for wind-driven moisture
penetration, particularly if there is a high exposure level (no trees
or other adjacent buildings as protection).</strong></font></div>
          <div><strong></strong> </div>
          <div><strong><font color="#007f40">This wall structure would
have to do all its drying to the outside; but since there should be
little moisture drive from the inside, the outward drying force may not
be sufficient to lift the paint. </font></strong></div>
          <div><strong></strong> </div>
          <div><strong><font color="#007f40">But, if I were interested
in preserving this building, I would consider removing (and either
saving or replacing) the exterior cladding and installing a
weather-resistant barrier (probably 15# felt or grade D building
paper). Without such a secondary drainage plane, it's likely that you
would be up on that scaffolding again removing soggy cellulose and
rotted wood.</font></strong></div>
          <div><strong></strong> </div>
          <div><strong><font color="#007f40">Removing the cladding
would also allow the cellulose to be blown in behind InsulWeb netting
for a more complete installation (around knee braces, etc), then
covered with WRB and siding. </font></strong></div>
        </blockquote>
        </td>
      </tr>
    </tbody>
  </table>
</blockquote>
</body>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Dec 2008 12:59:37 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Interesting thoughts re: Arch. Design vs. "green building
              consulting".
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	[Sbse] Re: SBSE Digest, Vol 14, Issue 14
Date: 	Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:34:17 -0800
From: 	Sam Jensen Augustine <[log in to unmask]>
To: 	[log in to unmask]
References: 	<[log in to unmask]>



It's actually worse than you might think. I graduated with an MArch this 
past year and have a very strong undergraduate science and lab 
background which I built upon in Grad school. Many firms I approached 
for work flat out told me and many of my friends with similar technical 
backgrounds "you should work for an engineering firm we aren't 
interested in those skills." Most of the firms that were interested in 
me planned for me to act as in house LEED consultant or technical 
consultant. I would not mind doing that but, I am interested in 
designing, that's why I left hard science and decided to go into 
Architecture. I don't think they are mutually exclusive, but many people 
from both the technical and "High Design" sides think they are.

I think that is the first place to start in education is showing 
fabulously designed, technically savy (not clever) buildings. While 
teaching a graduate section of Oregon's Environmental Controls class (as 
a grad teaching fellow) a regular question was "won't the consultants 
just end up measuring and doing all of this". The best answer I have 
found was "Do you want to let them make the decisions for your design?" 
In the end that is what this is about.  If we have technically 
competent/literate (not necessarily linear algebra or differential 
equations) architects they will interact competently and make informed 
design decisions. Architects and designers can push the consultants in 
the direction they want their dsign to go and also modify design goals 
based on understanding not ignorant default. (I do believe that it is 
everyone's design). This mutual respect needs to be cultivated.



--------------050801030904070800020309
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<br>
<br>
-------- Original Message --------
<table class="moz-email-headers-table" border="0" cellpadding="0"
 cellspacing="0">
  <tbody>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">Subject: </th>
      <td>[Sbse] Re: SBSE Digest, Vol 14, Issue 14</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">Date: </th>
      <td>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:34:17 -0800</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">From: </th>
      <td>Sam Jensen Augustine <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</a></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">To: </th>
      <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" nowrap="nowrap" valign="baseline">References: </th>
      <td><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</a></td>
    </tr>
  </tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
It's actually worse than you might think. I graduated with an MArch
this past year and have a very strong undergraduate science and lab
background which I built upon in Grad school. Many firms I approached
for work flat out told me and many of my friends with similar technical
backgrounds "you should work for an engineering firm we aren't
interested in those skills." Most of the firms that were interested in
me planned for me to act as in house LEED consultant or technical
consultant. I would not mind doing that but, I am interested in
designing, that's why I left hard science and decided to go into
Architecture. I don't think they are mutually exclusive, but many
people from both the technical and "High Design" sides think they are. <br>
<br>
I think that is the first place to start in education is showing
fabulously designed, technically savy (not clever) buildings. While
teaching a graduate section of Oregon's Environmental Controls class
(as a grad teaching fellow) a regular question was "won't the
consultants just end up measuring and doing all of this". The best
answer I have found was "Do you want to let them make the decisions for
your design?" In the end that is what this is about.&nbsp; If we have
technically competent/literate (not necessarily linear algebra or
differential equations) architects they will interact competently and
make informed design decisions. Architects and designers can push the
consultants in the direction they want their dsign to go and also
modify design goals based on understanding not ignorant default. (I do
believe that it is everyone's design). This mutual respect needs to be
cultivated.<br>
<br>
<br>
</body>
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_______________________________________________
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--------------090804090102040000020803--
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:55:20 -0800
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Karen Frost <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Karen Frost <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Interesting thoughts re: Arch. Design vs. "green building
              consulting".
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In her lecture at UVM Terry Irwin spoke about the need for the design commu=
nity to be less specialized, and more collaborative across disciplines.

--- On Wed, 12/17/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Interesting thoughts re: Arch. Design vs. "green building consulti=
ng".
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wednesday, December 17, 2008, 12:59 PM








-------- Original Message --------

 =20
   =20
      Subject:=20
      [Sbse] Re: SBSE Digest, Vol 14, Issue 14
   =20
   =20
      Date:=20
      Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:34:17 -0800
   =20
   =20
      From:=20
      Sam Jensen Augustine <[log in to unmask]>
   =20
   =20
      To:=20
      [log in to unmask]
   =20
   =20
      References:=20
      <[log in to unmask]>
   =20
 =20





It's actually worse than you might think. I graduated with an MArch
this past year and have a very strong undergraduate science and lab
background which I built upon in Grad school. Many firms I approached
for work flat out told me and many of my friends with similar technical
backgrounds "you should work for an engineering firm we aren't
interested in those skills." Most of the firms that were interested in
me planned for me to act as in house LEED consultant or technical
consultant. I would not mind doing that but, I am interested in
designing, that's why I left hard science and decided to go into
Architecture. I don't think they are mutually exclusive, but many
people from both the technical and "High Design" sides think they are.=20



I think that is the first place to start in education is showing
fabulously designed, technically savy (not clever) buildings. While
teaching a graduate section of Oregon's Environmental Controls class
(as a grad teaching fellow) a regular question was "won't the
consultants just end up measuring and doing all of this". The best
answer I have found was "Do you want to let them make the decisions for
your design?" In the end that is what this is about.=A0 If we have
technically competent/literate (not necessarily linear algebra or
differential equations) architects they will interact competently and
make informed design decisions. Architects and designers can push the
consultants in the direction they want their dsign to go and also
modify design goals based on understanding not ignorant default. (I do
believe that it is everyone's design). This mutual respect needs to be
cultivated.





=20
_______________________________________________
SBSE mailing list
[log in to unmask]
https://www.lists.uidaho.edu/mailman/listinfo/sbse


--0-1593268300-1229540120=:6090
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;">In her lecture at UVM Terry Irwin spoke about the need for the design community to be less specialized, and more collaborative across disciplines.<br><br>--- On <b>Wed, 12/17/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <i>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</i></b> wrote:<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;">From: Michelle Smith Mullarkey &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;<br>Subject: Interesting thoughts re: Arch. Design vs. "green building consulting".<br>To: [log in to unmask]<br>Date: Wednesday, December 17, 2008, 12:59 PM<br><br><div id="yiv2053677326">


<br>
<br>
-------- Original Message --------
<table class="moz-email-headers-table" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">
  <tbody>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" valign="baseline" nowrap="nowrap">Subject: </th>
      <td>[Sbse] Re: SBSE Digest, Vol 14, Issue 14</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" valign="baseline" nowrap="nowrap">Date: </th>
      <td>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:34:17 -0800</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" valign="baseline" nowrap="nowrap">From: </th>
      <td>Sam Jensen Augustine <a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</a></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" valign="baseline" nowrap="nowrap">To: </th>
      <td><a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th align="right" valign="baseline" nowrap="nowrap">References: </th>
      <td><a rel="nofollow" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</a></td>
    </tr>
  </tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
It's actually worse than you might think. I graduated with an MArch
this past year and have a very strong undergraduate science and lab
background which I built upon in Grad school. Many firms I approached
for work flat out told me and many of my friends with similar technical
backgrounds "you should work for an engineering firm we aren't
interested in those skills." Most of the firms that were interested in
me planned for me to act as in house LEED consultant or technical
consultant. I would not mind doing that but, I am interested in
designing, that's why I left hard science and decided to go into
Architecture. I don't think they are mutually exclusive, but many
people from both the technical and "High Design" sides think they are. <br>
<br>
I think that is the first place to start in education is showing
fabulously designed, technically savy (not clever) buildings. While
teaching a graduate section of Oregon's Environmental Controls class
(as a grad teaching fellow) a regular question was "won't the
consultants just end up measuring and doing all of this". The best
answer I have found was "Do you want to let them make the decisions for
your design?" In the end that is what this is about.&nbsp; If we have
technically competent/literate (not necessarily linear algebra or
differential equations) architects they will interact competently and
make informed design decisions. Architects and designers can push the
consultants in the direction they want their dsign to go and also
modify design goals based on understanding not ignorant default. (I do
believe that it is everyone's design). This mutual respect needs to be
cultivated.<br>
<br>
<br>
 
</div><pre>_______________________________________________<br>SBSE mailing list<br>[log in to unmask]<br>https://www.lists.uidaho.edu/mailman/listinfo/sbse<br><br></pre></blockquote></td></tr></table>
--0-1593268300-1229540120=:6090--
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Dec 2008 13:11:24 -0800
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Interesting thoughts re: Arch. Design vs. "green building
              consulting".
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
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Architecture and building science are as "mutually exclusive" as design and=
 construction - you can't do either well without some knowledge (preferably=
 a lot of knowledge and first-hand experience) of the other.
=A0
This was the basis for the Yestermorrow Design/Build School (as well as som=
e funky notions about the ideal of design-as-you-build), and this is a larg=
e part of why I teach there. I teach building science, thermal engineering,=
 structural engineering and (new this winter, hopefully) moisture engineeri=
ng to homeowners, architects, designers, builders=A0and engineers.
=A0
To design or build a well-integrated, properly functioning, pleasantly liva=
ble, and durable structure one has to either bring all these disciplines to=
gether as a team (and hope that the
vibes work out) or have all those "tools" in one "toolbox".
--- On Wed, 12/17/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


-------- Original Message --------=20



Subject:=20
[Sbse] Re: SBSE Digest, Vol 14, Issue 14

Date:=20
Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:34:17 -0800

From:=20
Sam Jensen Augustine <[log in to unmask]>

To:=20
[log in to unmask]

References:=20
<[log in to unmask]>

It's actually worse than you might think. I graduated with an MArch this pa=
st year and have a very strong undergraduate science and lab background whi=
ch I built upon in Grad school. Many firms I approached for work flat out t=
old me and many of my friends with similar technical backgrounds "you shoul=
d work for an engineering firm we aren't interested in those skills." Most =
of the firms that were interested in me planned for me to act as in house L=
EED consultant or technical consultant. I would not mind doing that but, I =
am interested in designing, that's why I left hard science and decided to g=
o into Architecture. I don't think they are mutually exclusive, but many pe=
ople from both the technical and "High Design" sides think they are.=20

I think that is the first place to start in education is showing fabulously=
 designed, technically savy (not clever) buildings. While teaching a gradua=
te section of Oregon's Environmental Controls class (as a grad teaching fel=
low) a regular question was "won't the consultants just end up measuring an=
d doing all of this". The best answer I have found was "Do you want to let =
them make the decisions for your design?" In the end that is what this is a=
bout.=A0 If we have technically competent/literate (not necessarily linear =
algebra or differential equations) architects they will interact competentl=
y and make informed design decisions. Architects and designers can push the=
 consultants in the direction they want their dsign to go and also modify d=
esign goals based on understanding not ignorant default. (I do believe that=
 it is everyone's design). This mutual respect needs to be cultivated.


_______________________________________________
SBSE mailing list
[log in to unmask]
https://www.lists.uidaho.edu/mailman/listinfo/sbse


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<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>Architecture and building science are as "mutually exclusive" as design and construction - you can't do either well without some knowledge (preferably a lot of knowledge and first-hand experience) of the other.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This was the basis for the Yestermorrow Design/Build School (as well as some funky notions about the ideal of design-as-you-build), and this is a large part of why I teach there. I teach building science, thermal engineering, structural engineering and (new this winter, hopefully) moisture engineering to homeowners, architects, designers, builders&nbsp;and engineers.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>To design or build a well-integrated, properly functioning, pleasantly livable, and durable structure one has to either bring all these disciplines together as a team (and hope that the<BR>vibes work out) or have all those "tools" in one "toolbox".<BR>--- On <B>Wed, 12/17/08, Michelle Smith Mullarkey <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">
<DIV id=yiv456038979>-------- Original Message -------- 
<TABLE class=moz-email-headers-table cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TH vAlign=baseline noWrap align=right><FONT size=2>Subject: </FONT></TH>
<TD><FONT size=2>[Sbse] Re: SBSE Digest, Vol 14, Issue 14</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH vAlign=baseline noWrap align=right><FONT size=2>Date: </FONT></TH>
<TD><FONT size=2>Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:34:17 -0800</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH vAlign=baseline noWrap align=right><FONT size=2>From: </FONT></TH>
<TD><FONT size=2>Sam Jensen Augustine </FONT><A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=_blank rel=nofollow><FONT size=2>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</FONT></A></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH vAlign=baseline noWrap align=right><FONT size=2>To: </FONT></TH>
<TD><A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=_blank rel=nofollow><FONT size=2>[log in to unmask]</FONT></A></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TH vAlign=baseline noWrap align=right><FONT size=2>References: </FONT></TH>
<TD><A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=_blank rel=nofollow><FONT size=2>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</FONT></A></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR>It's actually worse than you might think. I graduated with an MArch this past year and have a very strong undergraduate science and lab background which I built upon in Grad school. Many firms I approached for work flat out told me and many of my friends with similar technical backgrounds "you should work for an engineering firm we aren't interested in those skills." Most of the firms that were interested in me planned for me to act as in house LEED consultant or technical consultant. I would not mind doing that but, I am interested in designing, that's why I left hard science and decided to go into Architecture. I don't think they are mutually exclusive, but many people from both the technical and "High Design"
 sides think they are. <BR><BR>I think that is the first place to start in education is showing fabulously designed, technically savy (not clever) buildings. While teaching a graduate section of Oregon's Environmental Controls class (as a grad teaching fellow) a regular question was "won't the consultants just end up measuring and doing all of this". The best answer I have found was "Do you want to let them make the decisions for your design?" In the end that is what this is about.&nbsp; If we have technically competent/literate (not necessarily linear algebra or differential equations) architects they will interact competently and make informed design decisions. Architects and designers can push the consultants in the direction they want their dsign to go and also modify design goals based on understanding not ignorant default. (I do believe that it is everyone's design). This mutual respect needs to be
 cultivated.<BR><BR><BR></DIV><PRE>_______________________________________________
SBSE mailing list
[log in to unmask]
https://www.lists.uidaho.edu/mailman/listinfo/sbse

</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 2008 19:27:27 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Tim Yandow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      isolated vapor barrier
Comments: To: Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>I am interested to know if anyone has an opinion about or experience with
the following situation:
I am currently constructing a 2000 sq ft double wall, dense pack cellulose
house. Due to a number of factors, an upstairs shower stall, 4' X 4' ended
up in an outside corner of the house (north west corner). I know this is
not a great spot for it, but there it is. The tiler would like me to place
a vapor barrier over the framing before the hardy backer and tile go on.
There is 12 inches of cellulose in the walls with a thermal break (2- 2x4
walls) behind the shower. This I presume is to keep moisture from the
shower away from the insulation. I am wondering if this is a good idea
given the porous nature of tile and hardy backer. Any input? Thanks.
Tim Yandow



I am not sure what makes the most sense here
>
> --- On Tue, 12/16/08, William C Badger AIA
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
> Stain may be fine for certain applications, but white stain does not cut
> it on a 19th Century Greek Revival building. There are many applications
> where paint is the only suitable coating and our wall sandwich has to
> accept that.
>  
> Acrylic water-based primers and paints are relatively vapor permeable, as
> long as they don't have lead or zinc oxide pigments.
>
> I have been on the scaffolding and seen soggy paper mache that was once
> cellulose insulation pulled out of walls.
>  
> Without the forensic analysis that would determine the source of the
> moisture, that anecdote indicates nothing.
>  
> Try telling the owners of a late 18th Century library that all the books
> and shelves need to be removed and the wood paneled walls painted with
> vapor barrier paint. For that matter, any old house with an historic or
> just well finished interior is not a candidate for an interior vapor
> barrier.
>  
> Many of the early cellulose retrofits had insufficient density to prevent
> the air movement that is the primary vector of moisture in walls. If
> properly dense-packed, and interior humidity levels are appropriately
> controlled (and there are no sources of bulk moisture, such as wet
> basements or crawl spaces or ice dam leakage), cellulose retrofits do not
> require a vapor retarder. In fact, one cellulose manufacturer - Applegate
> - will void their warrantee if a vapor retarder IS used.
>  
> More attention is being paid to the "flow-through" concept of moisture
> control, allowing drying in both directions.
>  
>
> In 1979 a field study in Portland, Oregon (4,792 degree days) concluded
> there is no risk of moisture damage in mild climates without a vapor
> barrier
>  
> A second major field study was done in Spokane, Washington (6,835 degree
> days) by George Tsongas, Ph.D. P.E. Professor of Mechanical Engineering at
> Portland State University. The exterior walls of 103 homes were opened, 79
> with retrofitted insulation and 24 uninsulated as a control group. “This
> study strongly concludes that the addition of wall insulation without a
> vapor barrier does not cause moisture problems in existing homes in
> climates similar to that of Spokane.” Bonneville Power Administration
> provided funding for this study.
>  
> A 2004 study released by building scientist Erkki Kokko of Finland,
> ”Hygroscopic Cellulose Fiber Insulated Structures” found the use of
> permeable building materials resulted in improved indoor air quality. The
> absence of a vapor barrier, such as polyethylene film, allowed the wall to
> absorb and desorb relative humidity. This enables the interior relative
> humidity to remain more constant and comfortable to the occupants.
> They also found a 30% reduction in the carbon dioxide levels.
>  
> The EEBA’s Builder’s Guide for Cold Climates states in Appendix III,
> “Polyethylene on the inside of building assemblies in cold, mixed-humid,
> mixed-dry, hot-humid, and hot-dry climates is not generally a good
> idea.” “A classic flow-through wall assembly should have a permeable
> interior surface and finish and permeable exterior sheathing and permeable
> building paper drainage plane.” This permits drying to both the interior
> and exterior.
>  
> In a December 2001 presentation in Proceedings of Thermal Performance of
> Building Envelopes VIII, Asst. Prof. John Straube stated “In many
> practical situations, a low permeance vapour barrier will not improve
> hygrothermal performance, and may in fact increase the likelihood of
> damaging condensation or trap moisture in the system. In some cases, a
> low-permeance vapour barrier may be called for, but in many practical
> high performance enclosures, none is needed, and eliminating them will
> actually improve performance by encouraging drying and avoiding
> solar-driven diffusion wetting.
>  
> I would pose a typical problem building for group comments. A late 19th
> Century structure with some timber frame and some stick built walls. The
> bulk of the walls are uninsulated with clapboards nailed directly to the
> studs (no sheathing). The interior walls are lath and plaster with 1/2"
> Celetex over it and 1/4" plywood paneling over that. It has a stone
> foundation and slate roof. The attic is vented and the attic floor is
> insulated with a nominal 12" of fiberglass, but electricians over the
> years have done their best to rearrange it. The paint tends to hold fairly
> well, but is a mix of relatively new coatings and what ancient bits have
> still hung on. Will dense pack cellulose exert enough pressure to pop
> clapboards off (small cut nails are what was used)? Will moisture transfer
> peal the paint?
>
> As long as moisture sources are mitigated (stone basement?) and interior
> humidity levels are controlled with appropriate ventilation, this might be
> a good candidate for dense-pack cellulose. It's unlikely that the
> installation would pop the cladding nails, as aged wood has amazing
> holding power, unless previous rusting has deteriorated the bond.
>  
> Ironically the potential problem in this case might be the presence of an
> interior vapor barrier - the Celotex, with its double foil facings.  Since
> the exterior cladding has no weather-resistant barrier (not even
> sheathing), there is a potential for wind-driven moisture penetration,
> particularly if there is a high exposure level (no trees or other adjacent
> buildings as protection).
>  
> This wall structure would have to do all its drying to the outside; but
> since there should be little moisture drive from the inside, the outward
> drying force may not be sufficient to lift the paint. 
>  
> But, if I were interested in preserving this building, I would consider
> removing (and either saving or replacing) the exterior cladding and
> installing a weather-resistant barrier (probably 15# felt or grade D
> building paper). Without such a secondary drainage plane, it's likely that
> you would be up on that scaffolding again removing soggy cellulose and
> rotted wood.
>  
> Removing the cladding would also allow the cellulose to be blown in behind
> InsulWeb netting for a more complete installation (around knee braces,
> etc), then covered with WRB and siding. 
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 2008 19:47:47 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              "Jonathan Miller, AIA" <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         "Jonathan Miller, AIA" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: isolated vapor barrier
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1)
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Hello Tim:
The situation does look as if you are asking to supersaturate the =20
cellulose insulation.
I would suggest you provide a contiguous ceiling, wall and floor =20
waterproof barrier under the tile.... or a fiberglas shower unit.... =20
combined with a pretty good exhaust fan.

I've always been nostalgic about the switched half-window 30x30 half-=20
window bathroom exhaust fan my wife and I had in our first apartment =20
in an Art Deco building. It really worked to suck out the vapor in a =20
short time.

Jonathan Miller, FCSI, AIA
JMMa Specs


On Dec 18, 2008, at 7:27 PM, Tim Yandow wrote:

>> I am interested to know if anyone has an opinion about or =20
>> experience with
> the following situation:
> I am currently constructing a 2000 sq ft double wall, dense pack =20
> cellulose
> house. Due to a number of factors, an upstairs shower stall, 4' X =20
> 4' ended
> up in an outside corner of the house (north west corner). I know =20
> this is
> not a great spot for it, but there it is. The tiler would like me =20
> to place
> a vapor barrier over the framing before the hardy backer and tile =20
> go on.
> There is 12 inches of cellulose in the walls with a thermal break =20
> (2- 2x4
> walls) behind the shower. This I presume is to keep moisture from the
> shower away from the insulation. I am wondering if this is a good idea
> given the porous nature of tile and hardy backer. Any input? Thanks.
> Tim Yandow
>
>
>
> I am not sure what makes the most sense here
>>
>> --- On Tue, 12/16/08, William C Badger AIA
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Stain may be fine for certain applications, but white stain does =20
>> not cut
>> it on a 19th Century Greek Revival building. There are many =20
>> applications
>> where paint is the only suitable coating and our wall sandwich has to
>> accept that.
>>
>> Acrylic water-based primers and paints are relatively vapor =20
>> permeable, as
>> long as they don't have lead or zinc oxide pigments.
>>
>> I have been on the scaffolding and seen soggy paper mache that was =20=

>> once
>> cellulose insulation pulled out of walls.
>>
>> Without the forensic analysis that would determine the source of the
>> moisture, that anecdote indicates nothing.
>>
>> Try telling the owners of a late 18th Century library that all the =20=

>> books
>> and shelves need to be removed and the wood paneled walls painted =20
>> with
>> vapor barrier paint. For that matter, any old house with an =20
>> historic or
>> just well finished interior is not a candidate for an interior vapor
>> barrier.
>>
>> Many of the early cellulose retrofits had insufficient density to =20
>> prevent
>> the air movement that is the primary vector of moisture in walls. If
>> properly dense-packed, and interior humidity levels are appropriately
>> controlled (and there are no sources of bulk moisture, such as wet
>> basements or crawl spaces or ice dam leakage), cellulose retrofits =20=

>> do not
>> require a vapor retarder. In fact, one cellulose manufacturer - =20
>> Applegate
>> - will void their warrantee if a vapor retarder IS used.
>>
>> More attention is being paid to the "flow-through" concept of =20
>> moisture
>> control, allowing drying in both directions.
>>
>>
>> In 1979 a field study in Portland, Oregon (4,792 degree days) =20
>> concluded
>> there is no risk of moisture damage in mild climates without a vapor
>> barrier
>>
>> A second major field study was done in Spokane, Washington (6,835 =20
>> degree
>> days) by George Tsongas, Ph.D. P.E. Professor of Mechanical =20
>> Engineering at
>> Portland State University. The exterior walls of 103 homes were =20
>> opened, 79
>> with retrofitted insulation and 24 uninsulated as a control group. =20=

>> =93This
>> study strongly concludes that the addition of wall insulation =20
>> without a
>> vapor barrier does not cause moisture problems in existing homes in
>> climates similar to that of Spokane.=94 Bonneville Power =
Administration
>> provided funding for this study.
>>
>> A 2004 study released by building scientist Erkki Kokko of Finland,
>> =94Hygroscopic Cellulose Fiber Insulated Structures=94 found the use =
of
>> permeable building materials resulted in improved indoor air =20
>> quality. The
>> absence of a vapor barrier, such as polyethylene film, allowed the =20=

>> wall to
>> absorb and desorb relative humidity. This enables the interior =20
>> relative
>> humidity to remain more constant and comfortable to the occupants.
>> They also found a 30% reduction in the carbon dioxide levels.
>>
>> The EEBA=92s Builder=92s Guide for Cold Climates states in Appendix =
III,
>> =93Polyethylene on the inside of building assemblies in cold, mixed-=20=

>> humid,
>> mixed-dry, hot-humid, and hot-dry climates is not generally a good
>> idea.=94 =93A classic flow-through wall assembly should have a =
permeable
>> interior surface and finish and permeable exterior sheathing and =20
>> permeable
>> building paper drainage plane.=94 This permits drying to both the =20
>> interior
>> and exterior.
>>
>> In a December 2001 presentation in Proceedings of Thermal =20
>> Performance of
>> Building Envelopes VIII, Asst. Prof. John Straube stated =93In many
>> practical situations, a low permeance vapour barrier will not improve
>> hygrothermal performance, and may in fact increase the likelihood of
>> damaging condensation or trap moisture in the system. In some =20
>> cases, a
>> low-permeance vapour barrier may be called for, but in many practical
>> high performance enclosures, none is needed, and eliminating them =20
>> will
>> actually improve performance by encouraging drying and avoiding
>> solar-driven diffusion wetting.
>>
>> I would pose a typical problem building for group comments. A late =20=

>> 19th
>> Century structure with some timber frame and some stick built =20
>> walls. The
>> bulk of the walls are uninsulated with clapboards nailed directly =20
>> to the
>> studs (no sheathing). The interior walls are lath and plaster with =20=

>> 1/2"
>> Celetex over it and 1/4" plywood paneling over that. It has a stone
>> foundation and slate roof. The attic is vented and the attic floor is
>> insulated with a nominal 12" of fiberglass, but electricians over the
>> years have done their best to rearrange it. The paint tends to =20
>> hold fairly
>> well, but is a mix of relatively new coatings and what ancient =20
>> bits have
>> still hung on. Will dense pack cellulose exert enough pressure to pop
>> clapboards off (small cut nails are what was used)? Will moisture =20
>> transfer
>> peal the paint?
>>
>> As long as moisture sources are mitigated (stone basement?) and =20
>> interior
>> humidity levels are controlled with appropriate ventilation, this =20
>> might be
>> a good candidate for dense-pack cellulose. It's unlikely that the
>> installation would pop the cladding nails, as aged wood has amazing
>> holding power, unless previous rusting has deteriorated the bond.
>>
>> Ironically the potential problem in this case might be the =20
>> presence of an
>> interior vapor barrier - the Celotex, with its double foil =20
>> facings.  Since
>> the exterior cladding has no weather-resistant barrier (not even
>> sheathing), there is a potential for wind-driven moisture =20
>> penetration,
>> particularly if there is a high exposure level (no trees or other =20
>> adjacent
>> buildings as protection).
>>
>> This wall structure would have to do all its drying to the =20
>> outside; but
>> since there should be little moisture drive from the inside, the =20
>> outward
>> drying force may not be sufficient to lift the paint.
>>
>> But, if I were interested in preserving this building, I would =20
>> consider
>> removing (and either saving or replacing) the exterior cladding and
>> installing a weather-resistant barrier (probably 15# felt or grade D
>> building paper). Without such a secondary drainage plane, it's =20
>> likely that
>> you would be up on that scaffolding again removing soggy cellulose =20=

>> and
>> rotted wood.
>>
>> Removing the cladding would also allow the cellulose to be blown =20
>> in behind
>> InsulWeb netting for a more complete installation (around knee =20
>> braces,
>> etc), then covered with WRB and siding.


--Apple-Mail-2-84880816
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=WINDOWS-1252

<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
Hello Tim:<div>The situation does look as if you are asking to =
supersaturate the cellulose insulation.</div><div>I would suggest you =
provide a contiguous ceiling, wall and floor <span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"text-decoration: =
underline;">waterproof</span> barrier under the tile.... or a fiberglas =
shower unit.... combined with a pretty good exhaust =
fan.</div><div><br></div><div>I've always been nostalgic about the =
switched half-window 30x30=A0half-window=A0bathroom exhaust fan my wife =
and I had in our first apartment in an Art Deco building. It really =
worked to suck out the vapor in a short time.</div><div><br><div> <span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div>Jonathan Miller,<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</span><span class=3D"Apple-style-span"=
 style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 9px; font-style: italic; =
">FCSI, AIA</span></div><div>JMMa Specs</div><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div></span></span></span></span></div=
><br><div><div>On Dec 18, 2008, at 7:27 PM, Tim Yandow wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I am interested to know if =
anyone has an opinion about or experience with</div> </blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">the following situation:</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">I am currently constructing a 2000 sq ft double =
wall, dense pack cellulose</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">house. Due to =
a number of factors, an upstairs shower stall, 4' X 4' ended</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">up in an outside corner of the house (north west =
corner). I know this is</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">not a great =
spot for it, but there it is. The tiler would like me to place</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">a vapor barrier over the framing before the hardy =
backer and tile go on.</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">There is 12 inches of =
cellulose in the walls with a thermal break (2- 2x4</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">walls) behind the shower. This I presume is to keep =
moisture from the</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">shower away from the insulation. =
I am wondering if this is a good idea</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">given =
the porous nature of tile and hardy backer. Any input? Thanks.</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">Tim Yandow</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: =
14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I am not =
sure what makes the most sense here</div> <blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">--- On =
Tue, 12/16/08, William C Badger AIA</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">wcbadger@badgerandassocia=
tes.com</a>> wrote:</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; =
"><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">Stain may be fine for certain applications, but =
white stain does not cut</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">it on a 19th =
Century Greek Revival building. There are many applications</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">where paint is the only suitable coating and our =
wall sandwich has to</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">accept that.</div><p =
style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px">=A0</p><div style=3D"margin-top:=
 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Acrylic =
water-based primers and paints are relatively=A0vapor permeable, =
as</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: =
0px; margin-left: 0px; ">long as they don't have lead or zinc oxide =
pigments.</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">I have been on the scaffolding and seen soggy paper =
mache that was once</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">cellulose insulation pulled =
out of walls.</div><p style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px =
0.0px">=A0</p><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Without the forensic analysis =
that would determine the source of the</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
">moisture, that anecdote indicates nothing.</div><p style=3D"margin: =
0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px">=A0</p><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Try telling =
the owners of a late 18th Century library that all the books</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">and shelves need to be removed and the wood paneled =
walls painted with</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">vapor barrier paint. For =
that matter, any old house with an historic or</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">just well finished interior is not a candidate for =
an interior vapor</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">barrier.</div><p style=3D"margin: =
0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px">=A0</p><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Many of the =
early cellulose retrofits had insufficient density to prevent</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">the air movement that is the primary vector of =
moisture in walls. If</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">properly dense-packed, and =
interior humidity levels are appropriately</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
">controlled (and there are no sources of bulk moisture, such as =
wet</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">basements or crawl spaces or ice =
dam leakage), cellulose retrofits do not</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">require =
a vapor retarder. In fact, one cellulose manufacturer - =
Applegate</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">- will void their warrantee if a =
vapor retarder IS used.</div><p style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px =
0.0px">=A0</p><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">More attention is being paid to =
the "flow-through" concept of moisture</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">control, =
allowing drying in both directions.</div><p style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px =
0.0px 0.0px">=A0</p><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">In 1979 a field study in Portland, Oregon (4,792 =
degree days) concluded</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">there is no risk of =
moisture damage in mild climates without a vapor</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">barrier</div><p style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px =
0.0px">=A0</p><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">A second major field study was =
done in Spokane, Washington (6,835 degree</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">days) by =
George Tsongas, Ph.D. P.E. Professor of Mechanical Engineering =
at</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: =
0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Portland State University. The exterior walls =
of 103 homes were opened, 79</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">with =
retrofitted insulation and 24 uninsulated as a control group. =
=93This</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">study strongly concludes that =
the addition of wall insulation without a</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">vapor =
barrier does not cause moisture problems in existing homes in</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">climates similar to that of Spokane.=94 Bonneville =
Power Administration</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">provided funding for this =
study.</div><p style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px">=A0</p><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">A 2004 study released by building scientist Erkki =
Kokko of Finland,</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">=94Hygroscopic Cellulose Fiber =
Insulated Structures=94 found the use of</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
">permeable building materials resulted in improved indoor air quality. =
The</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">absence of a vapor barrier, such =
as polyethylene film, allowed the wall to</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">absorb =
and desorb relative humidity. This enables the interior =
relative</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">humidity to remain more constant =
and comfortable to the occupants.</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">They also =
found a 30% reduction in the carbon dioxide levels.</div><p =
style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px">=A0</p><div style=3D"margin-top:=
 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">The =
EEBA=92s Builder=92s Guide for Cold Climates states in Appendix =
III,</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">=93Polyethylene on the inside of =
building assemblies in cold, mixed-humid,</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
">mixed-dry, hot-humid, and hot-dry climates is not generally a =
good</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">idea.=94 =93A classic =
flow-through wall assembly should have a permeable</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">interior surface and finish and permeable exterior =
sheathing and permeable</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">building =
paper drainage plane.=94 This permits drying to both the =
interior</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">and exterior.</div><p =
style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px">=A0</p><div style=3D"margin-top:=
 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">In a =
December 2001 presentation in Proceedings of Thermal Performance =
of</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: =
0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Building Envelopes VIII, Asst. Prof. John =
Straube stated =93In many</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">practical =
situations, a low permeance vapour barrier will not improve</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">hygrothermal performance, and may in fact increase =
the likelihood of</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">damaging condensation or trap =
moisture in the system. In some cases, a</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
">low-permeance vapour barrier may be called for, but in many =
practical</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">high performance enclosures, =
none is needed, and eliminating them will</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">actually =
improve performance by encouraging drying and avoiding</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">solar-driven diffusion wetting.</div><p =
style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px">=A0</p><div style=3D"margin-top:=
 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I would =
pose a typical problem building for group comments. A late =
19th</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Century structure with some =
timber frame and some stick built walls. The</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">bulk of the walls are uninsulated with clapboards =
nailed directly to the</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">studs (no sheathing). The =
interior walls are lath and plaster with 1/2"</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">Celetex over it and 1/4" plywood paneling over that. =
It has a stone</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">foundation and slate roof. The =
attic is vented and the attic floor is</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
">insulated with a nominal 12" of fiberglass, but electricians over =
the</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">years have done their best to =
rearrange it. The paint tends to hold fairly</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">well, but is a mix of relatively new coatings and =
what ancient bits have</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">still hung on. Will dense =
pack cellulose exert enough pressure to pop</div><div style=3D"margin-top:=
 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
">clapboards off (small cut nails are what was used)? Will moisture =
transfer</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">peal the paint?</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">As long =
as moisture sources are mitigated (stone basement?) and =
interior</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">humidity levels=A0are controlled =
with appropriate ventilation, this might be</div><div style=3D"margin-top:=
 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">a good =
candidate for dense-pack cellulose. It's unlikely that the</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">installation would pop the cladding nails, as aged =
wood has amazing</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">holding power, unless previous =
rusting has deteriorated the bond.</div><p style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px =
0.0px 0.0px">=A0</p><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Ironically the potential problem =
in this case might be the presence of an</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">interior =
vapor barrier - the Celotex, with its double foil =
facings.=A0=A0Since</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the exterior cladding has =
no weather-resistant barrier (not even</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
">sheathing), there is a potential for wind-driven moisture =
penetration,</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">particularly if there is a high =
exposure level (no trees or other adjacent</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
">buildings as protection).</div><p style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px =
0.0px">=A0</p><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">This wall structure would have =
to do all its drying to the outside; but</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">since =
there should be little=A0moisture drive from the inside,=A0the =
outward</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">drying force may not be =
sufficient to lift the paint.=A0</div><p style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px =
0.0px 0.0px">=A0</p><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">But, if I were interested in =
preserving this building, I would consider</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">removing =
(and either saving or replacing) the exterior cladding and</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">installing a weather-resistant barrier (probably 15# =
felt or grade D</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">building paper). Without such a =
secondary drainage plane, it's likely that</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">you =
would be up on that scaffolding again removing soggy cellulose =
and</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">rotted wood.</div><p =
style=3D"margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px">=A0</p><div style=3D"margin-top:=
 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
">Removing the cladding would also allow=A0the cellulose to be blown in =
behind</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">InsulWeb netting for=A0a more =
complete=A0installation (around knee braces,</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">etc), then covered=A0with WRB and siding.=A0</div> =
</blockquote></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-2-84880816--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 2008 22:44:06 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Erik Heikel <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Erik Heikel <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: isolated vapor barrier
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ask tile installer to use Laticrete 9235 (or similar) brush on =20
membrane over hardibacker to create continuous waterproofing under =20
tile.  After using a number of techniques, this seems to be the best =20
way to protect against water infiltration if a leak presents itself.  =20=

Make sure to spray foam all penetrations (knobs, shower head, etc.) =20
before applying the membrane.
Erik Heikel

On Dec 18, 2008, at 7:27 PM, Tim Yandow wrote:

>> I am interested to know if anyone has an opinion about or =20
>> experience with
> the following situation:
> I am currently constructing a 2000 sq ft double wall, dense pack =20
> cellulose
> house. Due to a number of factors, an upstairs shower stall, 4' X =20
> 4' ended
> up in an outside corner of the house (north west corner). I know =20
> this is
> not a great spot for it, but there it is. The tiler would like me =20
> to place
> a vapor barrier over the framing before the hardy backer and tile =20
> go on.
> There is 12 inches of cellulose in the walls with a thermal break =20
> (2- 2x4
> walls) behind the shower. This I presume is to keep moisture from the
> shower away from the insulation. I am wondering if this is a good idea
> given the porous nature of tile and hardy backer. Any input? Thanks.
> Tim Yandow
>
>
>
> I am not sure what makes the most sense here
>>
>> --- On Tue, 12/16/08, William C Badger AIA
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Stain may be fine for certain applications, but white stain does =20
>> not cut
>> it on a 19th Century Greek Revival building. There are many =20
>> applications
>> where paint is the only suitable coating and our wall sandwich has to
>> accept that.
>>
>> Acrylic water-based primers and paints are relatively vapor =20
>> permeable, as
>> long as they don't have lead or zinc oxide pigments.
>>
>> I have been on the scaffolding and seen soggy paper mache that was =20=

>> once
>> cellulose insulation pulled out of walls.
>>
>> Without the forensic analysis that would determine the source of the
>> moisture, that anecdote indicates nothing.
>>
>> Try telling the owners of a late 18th Century library that all the =20=

>> books
>> and shelves need to be removed and the wood paneled walls painted =20
>> with
>> vapor barrier paint. For that matter, any old house with an =20
>> historic or
>> just well finished interior is not a candidate for an interior vapor
>> barrier.
>>
>> Many of the early cellulose retrofits had insufficient density to =20
>> prevent
>> the air movement that is the primary vector of moisture in walls. If
>> properly dense-packed, and interior humidity levels are appropriately
>> controlled (and there are no sources of bulk moisture, such as wet
>> basements or crawl spaces or ice dam leakage), cellulose retrofits =20=

>> do not
>> require a vapor retarder. In fact, one cellulose manufacturer - =20
>> Applegate
>> - will void their warrantee if a vapor retarder IS used.
>>
>> More attention is being paid to the "flow-through" concept of =20
>> moisture
>> control, allowing drying in both directions.
>>
>>
>> In 1979 a field study in Portland, Oregon (4,792 degree days) =20
>> concluded
>> there is no risk of moisture damage in mild climates without a vapor
>> barrier
>>
>> A second major field study was done in Spokane, Washington (6,835 =20
>> degree
>> days) by George Tsongas, Ph.D. P.E. Professor of Mechanical =20
>> Engineering at
>> Portland State University. The exterior walls of 103 homes were =20
>> opened, 79
>> with retrofitted insulation and 24 uninsulated as a control group. =20=

>> =93This
>> study strongly concludes that the addition of wall insulation =20
>> without a
>> vapor barrier does not cause moisture problems in existing homes in
>> climates similar to that of Spokane.=94 Bonneville Power =
Administration
>> provided funding for this study.
>>
>> A 2004 study released by building scientist Erkki Kokko of Finland,
>> =94Hygroscopic Cellulose Fiber Insulated Structures=94 found the use =
of
>> permeable building materials resulted in improved indoor air =20
>> quality. The
>> absence of a vapor barrier, such as polyethylene film, allowed the =20=

>> wall to
>> absorb and desorb relative humidity. This enables the interior =20
>> relative
>> humidity to remain more constant and comfortable to the occupants.
>> They also found a 30% reduction in the carbon dioxide levels.
>>
>> The EEBA=92s Builder=92s Guide for Cold Climates states in Appendix =
III,
>> =93Polyethylene on the inside of building assemblies in cold, mixed-=20=

>> humid,
>> mixed-dry, hot-humid, and hot-dry climates is not generally a good
>> idea.=94 =93A classic flow-through wall assembly should have a =
permeable
>> interior surface and finish and permeable exterior sheathing and =20
>> permeable
>> building paper drainage plane.=94 This permits drying to both the =20
>> interior
>> and exterior.
>>
>> In a December 2001 presentation in Proceedings of Thermal =20
>> Performance of
>> Building Envelopes VIII, Asst. Prof. John Straube stated =93In many
>> practical situations, a low permeance vapour barrier will not improve
>> hygrothermal performance, and may in fact increase the likelihood of
>> damaging condensation or trap moisture in the system. In some =20
>> cases, a
>> low-permeance vapour barrier may be called for, but in many practical
>> high performance enclosures, none is needed, and eliminating them =20
>> will
>> actually improve performance by encouraging drying and avoiding
>> solar-driven diffusion wetting.
>>
>> I would pose a typical problem building for group comments. A late =20=

>> 19th
>> Century structure with some timber frame and some stick built =20
>> walls. The
>> bulk of the walls are uninsulated with clapboards nailed directly =20
>> to the
>> studs (no sheathing). The interior walls are lath and plaster with =20=

>> 1/2"
>> Celetex over it and 1/4" plywood paneling over that. It has a stone
>> foundation and slate roof. The attic is vented and the attic floor is
>> insulated with a nominal 12" of fiberglass, but electricians over the
>> years have done their best to rearrange it. The paint tends to =20
>> hold fairly
>> well, but is a mix of relatively new coatings and what ancient =20
>> bits have
>> still hung on. Will dense pack cellulose exert enough pressure to pop
>> clapboards off (small cut nails are what was used)? Will moisture =20
>> transfer
>> peal the paint?
>>
>> As long as moisture sources are mitigated (stone basement?) and =20
>> interior
>> humidity levels are controlled with appropriate ventilation, this =20
>> might be
>> a good candidate for dense-pack cellulose. It's unlikely that the
>> installation would pop the cladding nails, as aged wood has amazing
>> holding power, unless previous rusting has deteriorated the bond.
>>
>> Ironically the potential problem in this case might be the =20
>> presence of an
>> interior vapor barrier - the Celotex, with its double foil =20
>> facings.  Since
>> the exterior cladding has no weather-resistant barrier (not even
>> sheathing), there is a potential for wind-driven moisture =20
>> penetration,
>> particularly if there is a high exposure level (no trees or other =20
>> adjacent
>> buildings as protection).
>>
>> This wall structure would have to do all its drying to the =20
>> outside; but
>> since there should be little moisture drive from the inside, the =20
>> outward
>> drying force may not be sufficient to lift the paint.
>>
>> But, if I were interested in preserving this building, I would =20
>> consider
>> removing (and either saving or replacing) the exterior cladding and
>> installing a weather-resistant barrier (probably 15# felt or grade D
>> building paper). Without such a secondary drainage plane, it's =20
>> likely that
>> you would be up on that scaffolding again removing soggy cellulose =20=

>> and
>> rotted wood.
>>
>> Removing the cladding would also allow the cellulose to be blown =20
>> in behind
>> InsulWeb netting for a more complete installation (around knee =20
>> braces,
>> etc), then covered with WRB and siding.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 2008 20:02:43 -0800
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: isolated vapor barrier
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1782164734-1229659363=:19241"

--0-1782164734-1229659363=:19241
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A continuous=A0air barrier is more crucial, though in a high-humidty enviro=
nment like a shower a vapor barrier is wise as well. The 6 mil poly can ser=
ve both functions as long as there are no unsealed penetrations and the pol=
y is sealed at edges and seams.
=A0
Laticrete 9235 is a water barrier but not a vapor barrier (3 perms). You mi=
ght use it on the shower base (if that is tile), but I would use a vapor ba=
rrier on the walls and make sure there is a quiet, efficient exhaust fan op=
erated by a short-term=A0timer.
=A0
What kind of double wall system are you using? Can you share a cross-sectio=
n?
=A0
- Robert

--- On Thu, 12/18/08, Tim Yandow <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>I am interested to know if anyone has an opinion about or experience with
the following situation:
I am currently constructing a 2000 sq ft double wall, dense pack cellulose
house. Due to a number of factors, an upstairs shower stall, 4' X 4'
ended
up in an outside corner of the house (north west corner). I know this is
not a great spot for it, but there it is. The tiler would like me to place
a vapor barrier over the framing before the hardy backer and tile go on.
There is 12 inches of cellulose in the walls with a thermal break (2- 2x4
walls) behind the shower. This I presume is to keep moisture from the
shower away from the insulation. I am wondering if this is a good idea
given the porous nature of tile and hardy backer. Any input? Thanks.
Tim Yandow



I am not sure what makes the most sense here

--0-1782164734-1229659363=:19241
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>A continuous&nbsp;air barrier is more crucial, though in a high-humidty environment like a shower a vapor barrier is wise as well. The 6 mil poly can serve both functions as long as there are no unsealed penetrations and the poly is sealed at edges and seams.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Laticrete 9235 is a water barrier but not a vapor barrier (3 perms). You might use it on the shower base (if that is tile), but I would use a vapor barrier on the walls and make sure there is a quiet, efficient exhaust fan operated by a short-term&nbsp;timer.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>What kind of double wall system are you using? Can you share a cross-section?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>- Robert<BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 12/18/08, Tim Yandow <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><PRE>&gt;I am interested to know if anyone has an opinion about or experience with
the following situation:
I am currently constructing a 2000 sq ft double wall, dense pack cellulose
house. Due to a number of factors, an upstairs shower stall, 4' X 4'
ended
up in an outside corner of the house (north west corner). I know this is
not a great spot for it, but there it is. The tiler would like me to place
a vapor barrier over the framing before the hardy backer and tile go on.
There is 12 inches of cellulose in the walls with a thermal break (2- 2x4
walls) behind the shower. This I presume is to keep moisture from the
shower away from the insulation. I am wondering if this is a good idea
given the porous nature of tile and hardy backer. Any input? Thanks.
Tim Yandow



I am not sure what makes the most sense here
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table>
--0-1782164734-1229659363=:19241--
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Dec 2008 03:48:56 -0700
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Elba jimmie <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
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Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
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Currently in Practice:  Medical Doctors in the United States 

788,329 in total <> 17,099 emails

Medical Doctors in many different specialties

Can easily be sorted by 16 different fields

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{}{}{} Get These Fr EE with every order this week {}{}{}

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:02:03 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Tim Yandow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: double wall system
Comments: To: Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi Robert,
You might remember I spoke with you about using the modified Larsen Truss
for this house, but we went stick frame since the house is sided with
hardi plank instead of 4/4 shiplap. We ended up framing an exterior 2x4
wall 16 OC and an interior 2x2 (2x4 rips) 16 OC tied into the exterior
wall with two 1/2 ply gussets/spacers. This saved on materials. We used
2x12 top and bottom plates which we found allowed us to frame entire
sections of wall all at once and quite efficiently. We traded speed for
what we felt was a minor thermal break compromise by using 2x12. We
sheathed with 1/2 CDX pine covered with raindrop house wrap with taped
seams. Hardi plank siding (pre-painted) went on top of the sheathing.
Inside we used 5/8 sheet rock with caulked seams, then taped and painted
with AFM safecoat. The walls were filled with dense packed cellulose at 3
pcf prior to sheet rock installation using a heavier lanscape type fabric
stapled tight just to the inside of the studs to minimize bulging. That is
the basic cross section.
Tim Yandow

> A continuous air barrier is more crucial, though in a high-humidty
> environment like a shower a vapor barrier is wise as well. The 6 mil poly
> can serve both functions as long as there are no unsealed penetrations and
> the poly is sealed at edges and seams.
>  
> Laticrete 9235 is a water barrier but not a vapor barrier (3 perms). You
> might use it on the shower base (if that is tile), but I would use a vapor
> barrier on the walls and make sure there is a quiet, efficient exhaust fan
> operated by a short-term timer.
>  
> What kind of double wall system are you using? Can you share a
> cross-section?
>  
> - Robert
>
> --- On Thu, 12/18/08, Tim Yandow <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>>I am interested to know if anyone has an opinion about or experience with
> the following situation:
> I am currently constructing a 2000 sq ft double wall, dense pack cellulose
> house. Due to a number of factors, an upstairs shower stall, 4' X 4'
> ended
> up in an outside corner of the house (north west corner). I know this is
> not a great spot for it, but there it is. The tiler would like me to place
> a vapor barrier over the framing before the hardy backer and tile go on.
> There is 12 inches of cellulose in the walls with a thermal break (2- 2x4
> walls) behind the shower. This I presume is to keep moisture from the
> shower away from the insulation. I am wondering if this is a good idea
> given the porous nature of tile and hardy backer. Any input? Thanks.
> Tim Yandow
>
>
>
> I am not sure what makes the most sense here
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Dec 2008 17:43:18 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Will Eberle <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Will Eberle <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: not natural building products?
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="_f7ed2ed8-9e50-474d-a38b-026e07d5cc6e_"
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--_f7ed2ed8-9e50-474d-a38b-026e07d5cc6e_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi=2C I accidentally got on your mailing list and I didn't mean to.  Could =
you please remove me from it?  I get like thirty posts every day=2C that I =
don't want to read and it's hard to keep up with it all.  So if you could t=
ake me off the list=2C I'd appreciate it! thanks=2C
  Will Eberle

Date: Thu=2C 11 Dec 2008 10:46:10 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: not natural building products?
To: [log in to unmask]






 =20


Point taken.  I admittedly was thinking of products like Icynene vs.
straw=2C but it seems fossil fuels really are part of our entire world.



On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM=2C Robert Riversong wrote:

 =20
   =20
     =20
       =20
        --- On Wed=2C
12/10/08=2C Michelle Smith Mullarkey <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
       =20
           Fossil fuel is still used to manufacture and
transport the majority of green building products (not natural building
products such as straw bales)...=20
       =20
        =20
        I'm afraid that fossil fuels
are used for the production of most straw and since some of it is
coming from Canada=2C there's also transportation costs. "Natural"
building materials are not necessarily immune from the environmental
costs of other materials.=20
       =20
     =20
   =20
 =20



_________________________________________________________________
It=92s the same Hotmail=AE. If by =93same=94 you mean up to 70% faster.
http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad=
1_122008=

--_f7ed2ed8-9e50-474d-a38b-026e07d5cc6e_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<style>
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 10pt=3B
font-family:Verdana
}
</style>
</head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'>
Hi=2C I accidentally got on your mailing list and I didn't mean to.&nbsp=3B=
 Could you please remove me from it?&nbsp=3B I get like thirty posts every =
day=2C that I don't want to read and it's hard to keep up with it all.&nbsp=
=3B So if you could take me off the list=2C I'd appreciate it! thanks=2C<br=
>&nbsp=3B Will Eberle<br><br><hr id=3D"stopSpelling">Date: Thu=2C 11 Dec 20=
08 10:46:10 -0500<br>From: [log in to unmask]<br>Subject: Re: not natural buil=
ding products?<br>To: [log in to unmask]<br><br>




 =20


Point taken.&nbsp=3B I admittedly was thinking of products like Icynene vs.
straw=2C but it seems fossil fuels really are part of our entire world.<br>
<br>
On 12/10/2008 6:21 PM=2C Robert Riversong wrote:
<blockquote cite=3D"mid:10587_1228951308_mBANLmwa013663_865959.18905.qm@web=
1110.biz.mail.sk1.yahoo.com">
  <table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0">
    <tbody>
      <tr>
        <td style=3D"font-family: inherit=3B font-style: inherit=3B font-va=
riant: inherit=3B font-weight: inherit=3B font-size: inherit=3B line-height=
: inherit=3B" valign=3D"top">
        <div><font color=3D"#0000bf"><font color=3D"#000000">--- On <strong=
>Wed=2C
12/10/08=2C Michelle Smith Mullarkey <i><a class=3D"EC_moz-txt-link-rfc2396=
E">&[log in to unmask]&gt=3B</a></i></strong>
wrote:</font></font></div>
        <blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 5px=3B margin-left: 5px=3B">
          <div id=3D"EC_yiv16816363"><font color=3D"#0000bf"><strong><font =
color=3D"#000000">&nbsp=3BFossil fuel is still used to manufacture and
transport the majority of green building products (not <i>natural </i>build=
ing
products such as straw bales)... </font></strong></font></div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><font color=3D"#0000bf"><strong></strong></font>&nbsp=3B</div>
        <div><font color=3D"#0000bf"><strong>I'm afraid that fossil fuels
are used for the production of most straw and since some of it is
coming from Canada=2C there's also transportation costs. "Natural"
building materials are not necessarily immune from the environmental
costs of other materials. </strong></font></div>
        </td>
      </tr>
    </tbody>
  </table>
</blockquote>
<br><br /><hr />It=92s the same Hotmail=AE. If by =93same=94 you mean up to=
 70% faster. <a href=3D'http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TA=
GLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008' target=3D'_new'>Get your account now.</a>=
</body>
</html>=

--_f7ed2ed8-9e50-474d-a38b-026e07d5cc6e_--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:39:56 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Passive Houses
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

  I wanted to let people know about one of the most far reaching and
innovative energy efficiency movements in construction called the Passive
House Movement.  It started in Germany perhaps 12-15 years ago spurred on by
the Kyoto Protocol and the German Government.  Over 15,000 of these houses
have been built in Central Europe and the concept is spreading fast.  There
have been few cold climate models but there are many experiments underway.
The idea is similar to net zero but more innovative. You can find out more
details in the links below.

    You can read a report of the 3rd annual Passive House Conference in the
US just held in Duluth, MN here:
http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47457

    And you can visit the US passive house center here:
http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html

There is even a smaller movement of building designers working on combining
the Passive House concept with Natural Building.

    The passive house model is based on real use rather than designs and is
backed up with fuel use receipts.
    If anyone knows of anyone trying a Passive House in VT, please let me
know.

Cheers, 
Ben

Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
Benjamin Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and Nature
802.454.1167
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Dec 2008 19:17:15 -0800
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Passive Houses
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1180478978-1230520635=:1701"

--0-1180478978-1230520635=:1701
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ben, et al:
=A0
I just crunched some numbers and discovered that if I modified the superins=
ulated house I built last year by increasing the south glazing by 60sf (fro=
m 138sf to 198sf), using moderate solar heat gain triple glazed instead of =
double lowE=B2, and replaced the exhaust only, passive inlet ventilation sy=
stem with a 75% efficient HRV, then it would have met all the PassivHaus st=
andards.
=A0
Maybe next time.=20
=A0
- Robert
=A0


--- On Sun, 12/28/08, Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Passive Houses
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 4:39 PM

  I wanted to let people know about one of the most far reaching and
innovative energy efficiency movements in construction called the Passive
House Movement.  It started in Germany perhaps 12-15 years ago spurred on b=
y
the Kyoto Protocol and the German Government.  Over 15,000 of these houses
have been built in Central Europe and the concept is spreading fast.  There
have been few cold climate models but there are many experiments underway.
The idea is similar to net zero but more innovative. You can find out more
details in the links below.

    You can read a report of the 3rd annual Passive House Conference in the
US just held in Duluth, MN here:
http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47457

    And you can visit the US passive house center here:
http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html

There is even a smaller movement of building designers working on combining
the Passive House concept with Natural Building.

    The passive house model is based on real use rather than designs and is
backed up with fuel use receipts.
    If anyone knows of anyone trying a Passive House in VT, please let me
know.

Cheers,=20
Ben

Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
Benjamin Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and Nature
802.454.1167

--0-1180478978-1230520635=:1701
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>Ben, et al:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I just crunched some numbers and discovered that if I modified the sup=
erinsulated house I built last year by increasing the south glazing by 60sf=
 (from 138sf to 198sf), using moderate solar heat gain triple glazed instea=
d of double lowE=B2, and replaced the exhaust only, passive inlet ventilati=
on system with a 75% efficient HRV, then it would have met all the PassivHa=
us standards.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Maybe next time. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>- Robert</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>--- On <B>Sun, 12/28/08, Ben Graham <I>&lt;bfg@NATURALDESIGNBU=
ILD.US&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid">From: Ben Graham &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;<BR=
>Subject: Passive Houses<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Date: Sunday, Dece=
mber 28, 2008, 4:39 PM<BR><BR><PRE>  I wanted to let people know about one =
of the most far reaching and
innovative energy efficiency movements in construction called the Passive
House Movement.  It started in Germany perhaps 12-15 years ago spurred on b=
y
the Kyoto Protocol and the German Government.  Over 15,000 of these houses
have been built in Central Europe and the concept is spreading fast.  There
have been few cold climate models but there are many experiments underway.
The idea is similar to net zero but more innovative. You can find out more
details in the links below.

    You can read a report of the 3rd annual Passive House Conference in the
US just held in Duluth, MN here:
http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47457

    And you can visit the US passive house center here:
http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html

There is even a smaller movement of building designers working on combining
the Passive House concept with Natural Building.

    The passive house model is based on real use rather than designs and is
backed up with fuel use receipts.
    If anyone knows of anyone trying a Passive House in VT, please let me
know.

Cheers,=20
Ben

Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
Benjamin Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and Nature
802.454.1167
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table>
--0-1180478978-1230520635=:1701--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:25:20 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Passive Houses
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3313351522_5764092"

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3313351522_5764092
Content-type: text/plain;
	charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

That=B9s good to know Robert.

There=B9s another rub that make=B9s the Passive House concept different than
LEED and much better for it.  It uses actual energy usage and blower door
results.  Not just designs.
Which energy use standards were you using?  They haven=B9t published standard=
s
for our climate yet.  Probably the closest ones are the ones being develope=
d
for lapland and sweden.

Ben


On 12/28/08 10:17 PM, "Robert Riversong" <[log in to unmask]> wrote=
:

> Ben, et al:
> =20
> I just crunched some numbers and discovered that if I modified the
> superinsulated house I built last year by increasing the south glazing by=
 60sf
> (from 138sf to 198sf), using moderate solar heat gain triple glazed inste=
ad of
> double lowE=B2, and replaced the exhaust only, passive inlet ventilation sy=
stem
> with a 75% efficient HRV, then it would have met all the PassivHaus stand=
ards.
> =20
> Maybe next time.=20
> =20
> - Robert
> =20
>=20
>=20
> --- On Sun, 12/28/08, Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> From: Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Passive Houses
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 4:39 PM
>>=20
>>   I wanted to let people know about one of the most far reaching and
>> innovative energy efficiency movements in construction called the Passiv=
e
>> House Movement.  It started in Germany perhaps 12-15 years ago spurred o=
n by
>> the Kyoto Protocol and the German Government.  Over 15,000 of these hous=
es
>> have been built in Central Europe and the concept is spreading fast.  Th=
ere
>> have been few cold climate models but there are many experiments underwa=
y.
>> The idea is similar to net zero but more innovative. You can find out mo=
re
>> details in the links below.
>>=20
>>     You can read a report of the 3rd annual Passive House Conference in =
the
>> US just held in Duluth, MN here:
>> http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47457
>>=20
>>     And you can visit the US passive house center here:
>> http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html
>>=20
>> There is even a smaller movement of building designers working on combin=
ing
>> the Passive House concept with Natural Building.
>>=20
>>     The passive house model is based on real use rather than designs and=
 is
>> backed up with fuel use receipts.
>>     If anyone knows of anyone trying a Passive House in VT, please let m=
e
>> know.
>>=20
>> Cheers,=20
>> Ben
>>=20
>> Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
>> Benjamin Franklin
>> __________________________________________________________
>>=20
>> Ben Graham
>> www.naturaldesignbuild.us
>> Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting
>>=20
>> Integrating Culture and Nature
>> 802.454.1167
>=20


Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
Benjamin Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and Nature
802.454.1167




--B_3313351522_5764092
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	charset="ISO-8859-1"
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: Passive Houses</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'>That&=
#8217;s good to know Robert.<BR>
<BR>
There&#8217;s another rub that make&#8217;s the Passive House concept diffe=
rent than LEED and much better for it. &nbsp;It uses actual energy usage and=
 blower door results. &nbsp;Not just designs.<BR>
Which energy use standards were you using? &nbsp;They haven&#8217;t publish=
ed standards for our climate yet. &nbsp;Probably the closest ones are the on=
es being developed for lapland and sweden.<BR>
<BR>
Ben<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 12/28/08 10:17 PM, &quot;Robert Riversong&quot; &lt;housewright@PONDS-ED=
GE.NET&gt; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYL=
E=3D'font-size:12.0px'>Ben, et al:<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
I just crunched some numbers and discovered that if I modified the superins=
ulated house I built last year by increasing the south glazing by 60sf (from=
 138sf to 198sf), using moderate solar heat gain triple glazed instead of do=
uble lowE&#8221;, and replaced the exhaust only, passive inlet ventilation s=
ystem with a 75% efficient HRV, then it would have met all the PassivHaus st=
andards.<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
Maybe next time. <BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
- Robert<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
--- On <B>Sun, 12/28/08, Ben Graham <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I=
></B> wrote:<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYL=
E=3D'font-size:12.0px'>From: Ben Graham &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;<BR>
Subject: Passive Houses<BR>
To: [log in to unmask]<BR>
Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 4:39 PM<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;I wanted to let people know about one of the most far reaching =
and<BR>
innovative energy efficiency movements in construction called the Passive<B=
R>
House Movement. &nbsp;It started in Germany perhaps 12-15 years ago spurred=
 on by<BR>
the Kyoto Protocol and the German Government. &nbsp;Over 15,000 of these ho=
uses<BR>
have been built in Central Europe and the concept is spreading fast. &nbsp;=
There<BR>
have been few cold climate models but there are many experiments underway.<=
BR>
The idea is similar to net zero but more innovative. You can find out more<=
BR>
details in the links below.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;You can read a report of the 3rd annual Passive Hou=
se Conference in the<BR>
US just held in Duluth, MN here:<BR>
<a href=3D"http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47457">http://www.energybulleti=
n.net/node/47457</a><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;And you can visit the US passive house center here:=
<BR>
<a href=3D"http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html">http://www=
.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html</a><BR>
<BR>
There is even a smaller movement of building designers working on combining=
<BR>
the Passive House concept with Natural Building.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The passive house model is based on real use rather=
 than designs and is<BR>
backed up with fuel use receipts.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;If anyone knows of anyone trying a Passive House in=
 VT, please let me<BR>
know.<BR>
<BR>
Cheers, <BR>
Ben<BR>
<BR>
Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.<BR>
Benjamin Franklin<BR>
__________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
Ben Graham<BR>
www.naturaldesignbuild.us<BR>
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting<BR>
<BR>
Integrating Culture and Nature<BR>
802.454.1167<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><FONT FACE=3D"Hoefler Text, Times New Roman"><SP=
AN STYLE=3D'font-size:14.0px'><I>Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve=
 neither.<BR>
</I>Benjamin Franklin<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0px'>__________________________________________________________<B=
R>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><SPAN =
STYLE=3D'font-size:14.0px'>Ben Graham<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:14.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Hoefler Text, Time=
s New Roman">www.<B>naturaldesignbuild</B>.us <BR>
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Light"><B>Integrating Culture and Na=
ture</B></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Hoefler Text, Times New Roman">802.454.1167<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0px'><BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--B_3313351522_5764092--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Dec 2008 20:51:13 -0800
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Barry Rehfeld <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Barry Rehfeld <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Passive Houses
Comments: To: Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
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you might try dale doucette off route 100 south of wilmington. his house may
not be designed as such, but it's close. Has straw walls (about R-30 to
R-50), bank of southern-facing windows, few on the other 3 sides. heat
absorbing tile floors. doesn't use much power: off-grid 3 kw solar and wind
is all he has. (maybe propane for hot water and cooking. not sure).

On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

>  I wanted to let people know about one of the most far reaching and
> innovative energy efficiency movements in construction called the Passive
> House Movement.  It started in Germany perhaps 12-15 years ago spurred on
> by
> the Kyoto Protocol and the German Government.  Over 15,000 of these houses
> have been built in Central Europe and the concept is spreading fast.  There
> have been few cold climate models but there are many experiments underway.
> The idea is similar to net zero but more innovative. You can find out more
> details in the links below.
>
>    You can read a report of the 3rd annual Passive House Conference in the
> US just held in Duluth, MN here:
> http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47457
>
>    And you can visit the US passive house center here:
> http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html
>
> There is even a smaller movement of building designers working on combining
> the Passive House concept with Natural Building.
>
>    The passive house model is based on real use rather than designs and is
> backed up with fuel use receipts.
>    If anyone knows of anyone trying a Passive House in VT, please let me
> know.
>
> Cheers,
> Ben
>
> Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
> Benjamin Franklin
> __________________________________________________________
>
> Ben Graham
> www.naturaldesignbuild.us
> Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting
>
> Integrating Culture and Nature
> 802.454.1167
>

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you might try dale doucette off route 100 south of wilmington. his house may not be designed as such, but it&#39;s close. Has straw walls (about R-30 to R-50), bank of southern-facing windows, few on the other 3 sides. heat absorbing tile floors. doesn&#39;t use much power: off-grid 3 kw solar and wind is all he has. (maybe propane for hot water and cooking. not sure).<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Ben Graham <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">&nbsp;I wanted to let people know about one of the most far reaching and<br>innovative energy efficiency movements in construction called the Passive<br>
House Movement. &nbsp;It started in Germany perhaps 12-15 years ago spurred on by<br>the Kyoto Protocol and the German Government. &nbsp;Over 15,000 of these houses<br>have been built in Central Europe and the concept is spreading fast. &nbsp;There<br>
have been few cold climate models but there are many experiments underway.<br>The idea is similar to net zero but more innovative. You can find out more<br>details in the links below.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp;You can read a report of the 3rd annual Passive House Conference in the<br>
US just held in Duluth, MN here:<br><a href="http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47457" target="_blank">http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47457</a><br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp;And you can visit the US passive house center here:<br><a href="http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html" target="_blank">http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html</a><br>
<br>There is even a smaller movement of building designers working on combining<br>the Passive House concept with Natural Building.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp;The passive house model is based on real use rather than designs and is<br>backed up with fuel use receipts.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;If anyone knows of anyone trying a Passive House in VT, please let me<br>know.<br><br>Cheers,<br>Ben<br><br>Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.<br>Benjamin Franklin<br>__________________________________________________________<br>
<br>Ben Graham<br><a href="http://www.naturaldesignbuild.us/" target="_blank">www.naturaldesignbuild.us</a><br>Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting<br><br>Integrating Culture and Nature<br>802.454.1167<br>
</blockquote></div><br>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Dec 2008 20:55:50 -0800
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Passive Houses
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
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Ben,=20
=C2=A0
I was using the standards from the website you linked to.=20
=C2=A0
Performance Characteristics=20
=C2=A0

Airtight building shell =E2=89=A4 0.6 ACH @ 50 pascal pressure, measured by=
 blower-door test.
Annual heat requirement =E2=89=A4 15 kWh/m=C2=B2/year (0.048 therms/sf)
Primary Energy =E2=89=A4 120 kWh/m=C2=B2/year (0.38 therms/sf)
=C2=A0
In addition, the following are recommendations, varying with climate:

Window u-value =E2=89=A4 0.8 Watt/m=C2=B2/K =C2=A0(U-0.14)
Ventilation system with heat recovery with =E2=89=A5 75% efficiency with lo=
w electric consumption @ =C2=A00.45 Wh/m3
Thermal Bridge Free Construction =E2=89=A4 0.01 W/mK (=E2=89=A4 0.006 BTU-f=
t/hr-sf-=C2=B0F)
=C2=A0
And I was comparing them with both the Energy Star projected energy use num=
bers and my own spreadsheet, which has always closely matched actual consum=
ption.
=C2=A0
- Robert

--- On Sun, 12/28/08, Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Passive Houses
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 11:25 PM


That=E2=80=99s good to know Robert.

There=E2=80=99s another rub that make=E2=80=99s the Passive House concept d=
ifferent than LEED and much better for it. =C2=A0It uses actual energy usag=
e and blower door results. =C2=A0Not just designs.
Which energy use standards were you using? =C2=A0They haven=E2=80=99t publi=
shed standards for our climate yet. =C2=A0Probably the closest ones are the=
 ones being developed for lapland and sweden.

Ben


On 12/28/08 10:17 PM, "Robert Riversong" <[log in to unmask]> wrote=
:


Ben, et al:
=C2=A0
I just crunched some numbers and discovered that if I modified the superins=
ulated house I built last year by increasing the south glazing by 60sf (fro=
m 138sf to 198sf), using moderate solar heat gain triple glazed instead of =
double lowE=E2=80=9D, and replaced the exhaust only, passive inlet ventilat=
ion system with a 75% efficient HRV, then it would have met all the PassivH=
aus standards.
=C2=A0
Maybe next time.=20
=C2=A0
- Robert
=C2=A0


--- On Sun, 12/28/08, Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Passive Houses
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 4:39 PM

=C2=A0=C2=A0I wanted to let people know about one of the most far reaching =
and
innovative energy efficiency movements in construction called the Passive
House Movement. =C2=A0It started in Germany perhaps 12-15 years ago spurred=
 on by
the Kyoto Protocol and the German Government. =C2=A0Over 15,000 of these ho=
uses
have been built in Central Europe and the concept is spreading fast. =C2=A0=
There
have been few cold climate models but there are many experiments underway.
The idea is similar to net zero but more innovative. You can find out more
details in the links below.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0You can read a report of the 3rd annual Passive Hou=
se Conference in the
US just held in Duluth, MN here:
http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47457

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0And you can visit the US passive house center here:
http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html

There is even a smaller movement of building designers working on combining
the Passive House concept with Natural Building.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The passive house model is based on real use rather=
 than designs and is
backed up with fuel use receipts.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0If anyone knows of anyone trying a Passive House in=
 VT, please let me
know.

Cheers,=20
Ben

Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
Benjamin Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and Nature
802.454.1167



Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
Benjamin Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us=20
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and Nature=20
802.454.1167



--0-1039151322-1230526550=:71220
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>Ben, </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I was using the standards from the website you linked to. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<P class=3Dparagraphstyle3 style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><STRONG><FONT colo=
r=3D#007f40>Performance Characteristics <?xml:namespace prefix =3D o ns =3D=
 "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></FONT></STRONG></D=
IV>
<P class=3Dparagraphstyle1 style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT color=3D#007=
f40>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></DIV>
<UL style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 0in" type=3Dsquare>
<LI class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo=
1; tab-stops: list .5in"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT size=3D2><FO=
NT color=3D#007f40>Airtight building shell =A1=C2 0.6 ACH @ 50 pascal press=
ure, measured by blower-door test.<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></LI>
<LI class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo=
1; tab-stops: list .5in"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT size=3D2><FO=
NT color=3D#007f40>Annual heat requirement =A1=C2 15 kWh/m=A9=F7/year (0.04=
8 therms/sf)<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></LI>
<LI class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo=
1; tab-stops: list .5in"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT size=3D2><FO=
NT color=3D#007f40>Primary Energy =A1=C2 120 kWh/m=A9=F7/year (0.38 therms/=
sf)<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></LI></UL>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE=
: 11pt"><o:p><FONT color=3D#007f40 size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></SPAN></DIV=
>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE=
: 11pt"><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#007f40>In addition, the following are=
 recommendations, varying with climate:<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DI=
V>
<UL style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 0in" type=3Dsquare>
<LI class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo=
2; tab-stops: list .5in"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT size=3D2><FO=
NT color=3D#007f40>Window u-value =A1=C2 0.8 Watt/m=A9=F7/K &nbsp;(U-0.14)<=
o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></LI>
<LI class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo=
2; tab-stops: list .5in"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT size=3D2><FO=
NT color=3D#007f40>Ventilation system with heat recovery with =A1=C3 75% ef=
ficiency with low electric consumption @ &nbsp;0.45 Wh/m<SUP>3</SUP><o:p></=
o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></LI>
<LI class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l1 level1 lfo=
2; tab-stops: list .5in"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT size=3D2><FO=
NT color=3D#007f40>Thermal Bridge Free Construction =A1=C2 0.01 W/mK (=A1=
=C2 0.006 BTU-ft/hr-sf-=A1=C6F)<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></LI></UL>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>And I was comparing them with both the Energy Star projected energy us=
e numbers and my own spreadsheet, which has always closely matched actual c=
onsumption.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>- Robert<BR><BR>--- On <B>Sun, 12/28/08, Ben Graham <I>&lt;bfg@NATURAL=
DESIGNBUILD.US&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid">From: Ben Graham &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;<BR=
>Subject: Re: Passive Houses<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Date: Sunday, =
December 28, 2008, 11:25 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv1807077772><FONT face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN styl=
e=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12px">That=A1=AFs good to know Robert.<BR><BR>There=A1=AFs =
another rub that make=A1=AFs the Passive House concept different than LEED =
and much better for it. &nbsp;It uses actual energy usage and blower door r=
esults. &nbsp;Not just designs.<BR>Which energy use standards were you usin=
g? &nbsp;They haven=A1=AFt published standards for our climate yet. &nbsp;P=
robably the closest ones are the ones being developed for lapland and swede=
n.<BR><BR>Ben<BR><BR><BR>On 12/28/08 10:17 PM, "Robert Riversong" &lt;house=
[log in to unmask]&gt; wrote:<BR><BR></SPAN></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SI=
ZE: 12px">Ben, et al:<BR>&nbsp;<BR>I just crunched some numbers and discove=
red that if I modified the superinsulated house I built last year by increa=
sing the south glazing by 60sf (from 138sf to 198sf), using moderate solar =
heat gain triple glazed instead of double lowE=A1=B1, and replaced the exha=
ust only, passive inlet ventilation system with a 75% efficient HRV, then i=
t would have met all the PassivHaus standards.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Maybe next time=
. <BR>&nbsp;<BR>- Robert<BR>&nbsp;<BR><BR><BR>--- On <B>Sun, 12/28/08, Ben =
Graham <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></SPAN></FONT=
>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SI=
ZE: 12px">From: Ben Graham &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;<BR>Subject: Pa=
ssive Houses<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Date: Sunday, December 28, 200=
8, 4:39 PM<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;I wanted to let people know about one of the =
most far reaching and<BR>innovative energy efficiency movements in construc=
tion called the Passive<BR>House Movement. &nbsp;It started in Germany perh=
aps 12-15 years ago spurred on by<BR>the Kyoto Protocol and the German Gove=
rnment. &nbsp;Over 15,000 of these houses<BR>have been built in Central Eur=
ope and the concept is spreading fast. &nbsp;There<BR>have been few cold cl=
imate models but there are many experiments underway.<BR>The idea is simila=
r to net zero but more innovative. You can find out more<BR>details in the =
links below.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;You can read a report of the 3r=
d annual Passive House Conference in the<BR>US just held in Duluth, MN
 here:<BR><A href=3D"http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47457" target=3D_bl=
ank rel=3Dnofollow>http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47457</A><BR><BR>&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;And you can visit the US passive house center here:<BR>=
<A href=3D"http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html" target=
=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.=
html</A><BR><BR>There is even a smaller movement of building designers work=
ing on combining<BR>the Passive House concept with Natural Building.<BR><BR=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The passive house model is based on real use rathe=
r than designs and is<BR>backed up with fuel use receipts.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;If anyone knows of anyone trying a Passive House in VT, please l=
et me<BR>know.<BR><BR>Cheers, <BR>Ben<BR><BR>Those who give up freedom for =
safety, deserve neither.<BR>Benjamin Franklin<BR>__________________________=
________________________________<BR><BR>Ben
 Graham<BR>www.naturaldesignbuild.us<BR>Natural building/design services/wo=
rkshops/consulting<BR><BR>Integrating Culture and Nature<BR>802.454.1167<BR=
></SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR></SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3D"Verd=
ana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR></SPAN></FON=
T><FONT size=3D4><FONT face=3D"Hoefler Text, Times New Roman"><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14px"><I>Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neith=
er.<BR></I>Benjamin Franklin<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT face=3D"Verdana,=
 Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12px">________________________=
__________________________________<BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D4><FON=
T face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14px">Ben G=
raham<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14px"><FONT face=3D"Hoefle=
r Text, Times New Roman">www.<B>naturaldesignbuild</B>.us <BR>Natural build=
ing/design
 services/workshops/consulting<BR></FONT><FONT face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-=
Medium"><BR></FONT><FONT face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Light"><B>Integrating =
Culture and Nature</B></FONT><FONT face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"> <BR=
></FONT><FONT face=3D"Hoefler Text, Times New Roman">802.454.1167<BR></FONT=
></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN style=3D"FONT=
-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table>
--0-1039151322-1230526550=:71220--
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 2008 00:03:39 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Passive Houses
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
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Thanks Barry,
Ben


On 12/28/08 11:51 PM, "Barry Rehfeld" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> you might try dale doucette off route 100 south of wilmington. his house may
> not be designed as such, but it's close. Has straw walls (about R-30 to R-50),
> bank of southern-facing windows, few on the other 3 sides. heat absorbing tile
> floors. doesn't use much power: off-grid 3 kw solar and wind is all he has.
> (maybe propane for hot water and cooking. not sure).
> 
> On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>  I wanted to let people know about one of the most far reaching and
>> innovative energy efficiency movements in construction called the Passive
>> House Movement.  It started in Germany perhaps 12-15 years ago spurred on by
>> the Kyoto Protocol and the German Government.  Over 15,000 of these houses
>> have been built in Central Europe and the concept is spreading fast.  There
>> have been few cold climate models but there are many experiments underway.
>> The idea is similar to net zero but more innovative. You can find out more
>> details in the links below.
>> 
>>    You can read a report of the 3rd annual Passive House Conference in the
>> US just held in Duluth, MN here:
>> http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47457
>> 
>>    And you can visit the US passive house center here:
>> http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html
>> 
>> There is even a smaller movement of building designers working on combining
>> the Passive House concept with Natural Building.
>> 
>>    The passive house model is based on real use rather than designs and is
>> backed up with fuel use receipts.
>>    If anyone knows of anyone trying a Passive House in VT, please let me
>> know.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Ben
>> 
>> Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
>> Benjamin Franklin
>> __________________________________________________________
>> 
>> Ben Graham
>> www.naturaldesignbuild.us <http://www.naturaldesignbuild.us/>
>> Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting
>> 
>> Integrating Culture and Nature
>> 802.454.1167
>> 
> 


Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
Benjamin Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and Nature
802.454.1167




--B_3313353820_5900022
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	charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: Passive Houses</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'>Thank=
s Barry,<BR>
Ben<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 12/28/08 11:51 PM, &quot;Barry Rehfeld&quot; &lt;[log in to unmask]
&gt; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYL=
E=3D'font-size:12.0px'>you might try dale doucette off route 100 south of wilm=
ington. his house may not be designed as such, but it's close. Has straw wal=
ls (about R-30 to R-50), bank of southern-facing windows, few on the other 3=
 sides. heat absorbing tile floors. doesn't use much power: off-grid 3 kw so=
lar and wind is all he has. (maybe propane for hot water and cooking. not su=
re).<BR>
<BR>
On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Ben Graham &lt;[log in to unmask]&g=
t; wrote:<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYL=
E=3D'font-size:12.0px'> I wanted to let people know about one of the most far =
reaching and<BR>
innovative energy efficiency movements in construction called the Passive<B=
R>
House Movement. &nbsp;It started in Germany perhaps 12-15 years ago spurred=
 on by<BR>
the Kyoto Protocol and the German Government. &nbsp;Over 15,000 of these ho=
uses<BR>
have been built in Central Europe and the concept is spreading fast. &nbsp;=
There<BR>
have been few cold climate models but there are many experiments underway.<=
BR>
The idea is similar to net zero but more innovative. You can find out more<=
BR>
details in the links below.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;You can read a report of the 3rd annual Passive House Con=
ference in the<BR>
US just held in Duluth, MN here:<BR>
<a href=3D"http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47457">http://www.energybulleti=
n.net/node/47457</a><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;And you can visit the US passive house center here:<BR>
<a href=3D"http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html">http://www=
.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html</a><BR>
<BR>
There is even a smaller movement of building designers working on combining=
<BR>
the Passive House concept with Natural Building.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The passive house model is based on real use rather than =
designs and is<BR>
backed up with fuel use receipts.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;If anyone knows of anyone trying a Passive House in VT, p=
lease let me<BR>
know.<BR>
<BR>
Cheers,<BR>
Ben<BR>
<BR>
Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.<BR>
Benjamin Franklin<BR>
__________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
Ben Graham<BR>
www.naturaldesignbuild.us &lt;http://www.naturaldesignbuild.us/&gt; <BR>
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting<BR>
<BR>
Integrating Culture and Nature<BR>
802.454.1167<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><FONT FACE=3D"Hoefler Text, Times New Roman"><SP=
AN STYLE=3D'font-size:14.0px'><I>Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve=
 neither.<BR>
</I>Benjamin Franklin<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0px'>__________________________________________________________<B=
R>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><SPAN =
STYLE=3D'font-size:14.0px'>Ben Graham<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:14.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Hoefler Text, Time=
s New Roman">www.<B>naturaldesignbuild</B>.us <BR>
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Light"><B>Integrating Culture and Na=
ture</B></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Hoefler Text, Times New Roman">802.454.1167<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0px'><BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--B_3313353820_5900022--
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:08:30 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Jeff Gephart <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Jeff Gephart <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Passive Houses
Comments: To: Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0032_01C9699D.6620D720"

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Re: Passive HousesBen et al,

A Home Energy Rating (HER) is a projection of a building's energy use =
and comparison of that particular building, to itself, built to the =
International Energy Conservation Code energy-efficiency specifications. =
 For all homes receiving a Home Energy Rating, building tightness is =
determined by a blower door test at the completion of construction and =
the tested tightness is a component of the Home Energy Rating score =
calculation. =20

All homes in Vermont within LEED for Homes are certified using the =
Optimize Energy Performance path within the Energy & Atmosphere section =
of LEED for Homes.  This means that the LEED for Homes points earned for =
energy-efficiency are based on the home's Home Energy Rating score, =
which again includes air tightness results, not just design assumptions.

Results are more important than projections; however, it is my =
understanding that when evaluated, Vermont's Home Energy Rating =
projections have been demonstrated to be conservative and that =
consumption for heating, cooling, and water heating is more commonly =
slightly less than the Home Energy Rating projection.

In the U.S. I doubt we will see any shift toward awarding green building =
certification after a year's worth of actual energy use.  One of the =
primary reasons is that builders and developers want to provide buyers =
with certification at closing. =20

Discussions between multiple stakeholders have resulted in an agreement =
that all homes being certified as green homes in Vermont, whether by the =
USGBC's LEED for Homes, the NAHB's National Green Building Standards, or =
BSR's Vermont Builds Greener, will have a Home Energy Rating (and must =
at least achieve the ENERGY STAR Home energy-efficiency as a minimum =
level, a threshold less efficient than Passive Haus).  So, regardless of =
certifying entity, all homes will have a Home Energy Rating (and blower =
door test) based on inspections at completion.

Passive Haus criteria are on Efficiency Vermont's radar though it isn't =
clear if or how they might factor into future in-state programs or =
services.

FYI,
Jeff Gephart

Vermont ENERGY STAR Homes
  A service of Efficiency Vermont & Vermont Gas Systems

LEED for Homes
  A U.S. Green Building Council program

800-893-1997
802-767-3861 fax

Better Buildings By Design Conference
returns to Vermont February 11-12, 2009.
Sheraton Conference Center, Burlington.
www.efficiencyvermont.com/conference=20
877-248-9900
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Ben Graham=20
  To: [log in to unmask]
  Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 11:25 PM
  Subject: Re: [VGBNTALK] Passive Houses


  That's good to know Robert.

  There's another rub that make's the Passive House concept different =
than LEED and much better for it.  It uses actual energy usage and =
blower door results.  Not just designs.
  Which energy use standards were you using?  They haven't published =
standards for our climate yet.  Probably the closest ones are the ones =
being developed for lapland and sweden.

  Ben


  On 12/28/08 10:17 PM, "Robert Riversong" <[log in to unmask]> =
wrote:


    Ben, et al:
    =20
    I just crunched some numbers and discovered that if I modified the =
superinsulated house I built last year by increasing the south glazing =
by 60sf (from 138sf to 198sf), using moderate solar heat gain triple =
glazed instead of double lowE", and replaced the exhaust only, passive =
inlet ventilation system with a 75% efficient HRV, then it would have =
met all the PassivHaus standards.
    =20
    Maybe next time.=20
    =20
    - Robert
    =20


    --- On Sun, 12/28/08, Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

      From: Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
      Subject: Passive Houses
      To: [log in to unmask]
      Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 4:39 PM

        I wanted to let people know about one of the most far reaching =
and
      innovative energy efficiency movements in construction called the =
Passive
      House Movement.  It started in Germany perhaps 12-15 years ago =
spurred on by
      the Kyoto Protocol and the German Government.  Over 15,000 of =
these houses
      have been built in Central Europe and the concept is spreading =
fast.  There
      have been few cold climate models but there are many experiments =
underway.
      The idea is similar to net zero but more innovative. You can find =
out more
      details in the links below.

          You can read a report of the 3rd annual Passive House =
Conference in the
      US just held in Duluth, MN here:
      http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47457

          And you can visit the US passive house center here:
      http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html

      There is even a smaller movement of building designers working on =
combining
      the Passive House concept with Natural Building.

          The passive house model is based on real use rather than =
designs and is
      backed up with fuel use receipts.
          If anyone knows of anyone trying a Passive House in VT, please =
let me
      know.

      Cheers,=20
      Ben

      Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
      Benjamin Franklin
      __________________________________________________________

      Ben Graham
      www.naturaldesignbuild.us
      Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting

      Integrating Culture and Nature
      802.454.1167





  Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
  Benjamin Franklin
  __________________________________________________________

  Ben Graham
  www.naturaldesignbuild.us=20
  Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting

  Integrating Culture and Nature=20
  802.454.1167



------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C9699D.6620D720
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: Passive Houses</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16788" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ben et al,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A Home Energy Rating&nbsp;(HER) is a =
projection of=20
a building's energy use and comparison of that particular building, to =
itself,=20
built to the International Energy Conservation Code energy-efficiency=20
specifications.&nbsp;&nbsp;For all homes receiving a Home Energy Rating, =

building tightness is determined by a blower door test&nbsp;at the =
completion of=20
construction and&nbsp;the tested tightness is&nbsp;a&nbsp;component of=20
the&nbsp;Home Energy Rating score calculation.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>All =
homes in Vermont=20
within LEED for Homes are certified using the <EM>Optimize Energy=20
Performance</EM> path within the Energy &amp; Atmosphere section of LEED =
for=20
Homes.&nbsp; This means that the LEED for Homes points earned for=20
energy-efficiency are based on&nbsp;the home's&nbsp;Home Energy Rating =
score,=20
which again includes air tightness results, not just design=20
assumptions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Results are more important than =
projections;=20
however, it is my understanding that when evaluated, Vermont's Home =
Energy=20
Rating projections have been demonstrated to be conservative and that=20
consumption for heating, cooling, and water heating is more commonly =
slightly=20
less than the Home Energy Rating projection.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In the U.S.&nbsp;I doubt we will see =
any shift=20
toward awarding green building certification after a year's worth of =
actual=20
energy use.&nbsp; One of the primary reasons is that builders and =
developers=20
want to provide buyers with certification at closing.&nbsp; =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Discussions between multiple =
stakeholders have=20
resulted in an agreement that all homes being certified as green homes =
in=20
Vermont, whether by the USGBC's LEED for Homes, the NAHB's National =
Green=20
Building Standards,&nbsp;or BSR's Vermont Builds Greener, will have a =
Home=20
Energy Rating (and must at least achieve the ENERGY STAR Home=20
energy-efficiency&nbsp;as&nbsp;a minimum level, a threshold less =
efficient than=20
Passive Haus).&nbsp; So, regardless of certifying entity, all homes will =
have a=20
Home Energy Rating (and blower door test) based on inspections at=20
completion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Passive Haus criteria are on Efficiency =
Vermont's=20
radar though it isn't clear if or how they might factor into future =
in-state=20
programs or services.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>FYI,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jeff Gephart</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Vermont ENERGY STAR Homes<BR>&nbsp; A service of Efficiency Vermont =
&amp;=20
Vermont Gas Systems</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>LEED for Homes<BR>&nbsp; A U.S. Green Building Council =
program</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>800-893-1997<BR>802-767-3861 fax</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG>Better Buildings By Design Conference<BR>returns to Vermont =

February 11-12, 2009.</STRONG><BR>Sheraton Conference Center, =
Burlington.<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.efficiencyvermont.com/conference">www.efficiencyvermon=
t.com/conference</A>=20
<BR>877-248-9900</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A [log in to unmask] =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Ben=20
  Graham</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
[log in to unmask]
  href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 28, 2008 =
11:25=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [VGBNTALK] Passive =

  Houses</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12px">That=92s good to know =
Robert.<BR><BR>There=92s another rub=20
  that make=92s the Passive House concept different than LEED and much =
better for=20
  it. &nbsp;It uses actual energy usage and blower door results. =
&nbsp;Not just=20
  designs.<BR>Which energy use standards were you using? &nbsp;They =
haven=92t=20
  published standards for our climate yet. &nbsp;Probably the closest =
ones are=20
  the ones being developed for lapland and =
sweden.<BR><BR>Ben<BR><BR><BR>On=20
  12/28/08 10:17 PM, "Robert Riversong" =
&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;=20
  wrote:<BR><BR></SPAN></FONT>
  <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12px">Ben, et al:<BR>&nbsp;<BR>I just crunched =
some=20
    numbers and discovered that if I modified the superinsulated house I =
built=20
    last year by increasing the south glazing by 60sf (from 138sf to =
198sf),=20
    using moderate solar heat gain triple glazed instead of double =
lowE=94, and=20
    replaced the exhaust only, passive inlet ventilation system with a =
75%=20
    efficient HRV, then it would have met all the PassivHaus=20
    standards.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Maybe next time. <BR>&nbsp;<BR>-=20
    Robert<BR>&nbsp;<BR><BR><BR>--- On <B>Sun, 12/28/08, Ben Graham=20
    <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</I></B> =
wrote:<BR></SPAN></FONT>
    <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12px">From: Ben Graham=20
      &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;<BR>Subject: Passive =
Houses<BR>To:=20
      [log in to unmask]<BR>Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 4:39=20
      PM<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;I wanted to let people know about one of the =
most=20
      far reaching and<BR>innovative energy efficiency movements in =
construction=20
      called the Passive<BR>House Movement. &nbsp;It started in Germany =
perhaps=20
      12-15 years ago spurred on by<BR>the Kyoto Protocol and the German =

      Government. &nbsp;Over 15,000 of these houses<BR>have been built =
in=20
      Central Europe and the concept is spreading fast. =
&nbsp;There<BR>have been=20
      few cold climate models but there are many experiments =
underway.<BR>The=20
      idea is similar to net zero but more innovative. You can find out=20
      more<BR>details in the links =
below.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;You can=20
      read a report of the 3rd annual Passive House Conference in =
the<BR>US just=20
      held in Duluth, MN here:<BR><A=20
      =
href=3D"http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47457">http://www.energybullet=
in.net/node/47457</A><BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;And=20
      you can visit the US passive house center here:<BR><A=20
      =
href=3D"http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html">http://ww=
w.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html</A><BR><BR>There=20
      is even a smaller movement of building designers working on=20
      combining<BR>the Passive House concept with Natural=20
      Building.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The passive house model =
is based=20
      on real use rather than designs and is<BR>backed up with fuel use=20
      receipts.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;If anyone knows of anyone =
trying a=20
      Passive House in VT, please let me<BR>know.<BR><BR>Cheers,=20
      <BR>Ben<BR><BR>Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve=20
      neither.<BR>Benjamin=20
      =
Franklin<BR>__________________________________________________________<BR=
><BR>Ben=20
      Graham<BR>www.naturaldesignbuild.us<BR>Natural building/design=20
      services/workshops/consulting<BR><BR>Integrating Culture and=20
      Nature<BR>802.454.1167<BR></SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT=20
    face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR></SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT=20
  face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12px"><BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D4><FONT=20
  face=3D"Hoefler Text, Times New Roman"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
14px"><I>Those=20
  who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.<BR></I>Benjamin=20
  Franklin<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, =
Arial"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12px">__________________________________________________________<BR><BR><=
/SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
  size=3D4><FONT face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14px">Ben Graham<BR></SPAN></FONT><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14px"><FONT=20
  face=3D"Hoefler Text, Times New =
Roman">www.<B>naturaldesignbuild</B>.us=20
  <BR>Natural building/design =
services/workshops/consulting<BR></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><BR></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Light"><B>Integrating Culture and=20
  Nature</B></FONT><FONT face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"> =
<BR></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3D"Hoefler Text, Times New =
Roman">802.454.1167<BR></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12px"><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C9699D.6620D720--
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:28:51 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Passive Houses
Comments: To: [log in to unmask]
In-Reply-To:  <A3C5FDF2273F403E919F4A125207C24D@jeff60bd199b59>
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Thanks for that clarification Jeff,

I think LEED has been getting flack for the reason you describe below.
People seem more interested in certification than real results, otherwise i=
t
would change.  This is basic scientific process. While you can generally
rely on designs to some extent, there has been recent findings that show a
more rigorous analysis is needed to actually achieve it goals. I would take
this as a critique from people who are interested in the same outcome.

Ben


On 12/29/08 10:08 AM, "Jeff Gephart" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Ben et al,
> =20
> A Home Energy Rating (HER) is a projection of a building's energy use and
> comparison of that particular building, to itself, built to the Internati=
onal
> Energy Conservation Code energy-efficiency specifications.  For all homes
> receiving a Home Energy Rating, building tightness is determined by a blo=
wer
> door test at the completion of construction and the tested tightness is a
> component of the Home Energy Rating score calculation.
> =20
> All homes in Vermont within LEED for Homes are certified using the Optimi=
ze
> Energy Performance path within the Energy & Atmosphere section of LEED fo=
r
> Homes.  This means that the LEED for Homes points earned for energy-effic=
iency
> are based on the home's Home Energy Rating score, which again includes ai=
r
> tightness results, not just design assumptions.
> =20
> Results are more important than projections; however, it is my understand=
ing
> that when evaluated, Vermont's Home Energy Rating projections have been
> demonstrated to be conservative and that consumption for heating, cooling=
, and
> water heating is more commonly slightly less than the Home Energy Rating
> projection.
> =20
> In the U.S. I doubt we will see any shift toward awarding green building
> certification after a year's worth of actual energy use.  One of the prim=
ary
> reasons is that builders and developers want to provide buyers with
> certification at closing.
> =20
> Discussions between multiple stakeholders have resulted in an agreement t=
hat
> all homes being certified as green homes in Vermont, whether by the USGBC=
's
> LEED for Homes, the NAHB's National Green Building Standards, or BSR's Ve=
rmont
> Builds Greener, will have a Home Energy Rating (and must at least achieve=
 the
> ENERGY STAR Home energy-efficiency as a minimum level, a threshold less
> efficient than Passive Haus).  So, regardless of certifying entity, all h=
omes
> will have a Home Energy Rating (and blower door test) based on inspection=
s at
> completion.
> =20
> Passive Haus criteria are on Efficiency Vermont's radar though it isn't c=
lear
> if or how they might factor into future in-state programs or services.
> =20
> FYI,
> Jeff Gephart
> =20
> Vermont ENERGY STAR Homes
>   A service of Efficiency Vermont & Vermont Gas Systems
> =20
> LEED for Homes
>   A U.S. Green Building Council program
> =20
> 800-893-1997
> 802-767-3861 fax
> =20
> Better Buildings By Design Conference
> returns to Vermont February 11-12, 2009.
> Sheraton Conference Center, Burlington.
> www.efficiencyvermont.com/conference
> <http://www.efficiencyvermont.com/conference>
> 877-248-9900
>> =20
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> =20
>> From:  Ben  Graham <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>> =20
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> =20
>> Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 11:25  PM
>> =20
>> Subject: Re: [VGBNTALK] Passive  Houses
>> =20
>>=20
>> That=B9s good to know Robert.
>>=20
>> There=B9s another rub  that make=B9s the Passive House concept different tha=
n
>> LEED and much better for  it.  It uses actual energy usage and blower do=
or
>> results.  Not just  designs.
>> Which energy use standards were you using?  They haven=B9t  published stan=
dards
>> for our climate yet.  Probably the closest ones are  the ones being deve=
loped
>> for lapland and sweden.
>>=20
>> Ben
>>=20
>>=20
>> On  12/28/08 10:17 PM, "Robert Riversong" <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>=20
>> =20
>>> Ben, et al:
>>> =20
>>> I just crunched some  numbers and discovered that if I modified the
>>> superinsulated house I built  last year by increasing the south glazing=
 by
>>> 60sf (from 138sf to 198sf),  using moderate solar heat gain triple glaz=
ed
>>> instead of double lowE=B2, and  replaced the exhaust only, passive inlet
>>> ventilation system with a 75%  efficient HRV, then it would have met al=
l the
>>> PassivHaus  standards.
>>> =20
>>> Maybe next time.
>>> =20
>>> -  Robert
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> --- On Sun, 12/28/08, Ben Graham  <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>> =20
>>>> From: Ben Graham  <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> Subject: Passive Houses
>>>> To:  [log in to unmask]
>>>> Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 4:39  PM
>>>>=20
>>>>   I wanted to let people know about one of the most  far reaching and
>>>> innovative energy efficiency movements in construction  called the Pas=
sive
>>>> House Movement.  It started in Germany perhaps  12-15 years ago spurre=
d on
>>>> by
>>>> the Kyoto Protocol and the German  Government.  Over 15,000 of these h=
ouses
>>>> have been built in  Central Europe and the concept is spreading fast.
>>>> There
>>>> have been  few cold climate models but there are many experiments unde=
rway.
>>>> The  idea is similar to net zero but more innovative. You can find out
>>>> more
>>>> details in the links below.
>>>>=20
>>>>     You can  read a report of the 3rd annual Passive House Conference =
in
>>>> the
>>>> US just  held in Duluth, MN here:
>>>> http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47457
>>>>=20
>>>>     And  you can visit the US passive house center here:
>>>> http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html
>>>>=20
>>>> There  is even a smaller movement of building designers working on
>>>> combining
>>>> the Passive House concept with Natural  Building.
>>>>=20
>>>>     The passive house model is based  on real use rather than designs =
and
>>>> is
>>>> backed up with fuel use  receipts.
>>>>     If anyone knows of anyone trying a  Passive House in VT, please le=
t me
>>>> know.
>>>>=20
>>>> Cheers, =20
>>>> Ben
>>>>=20
>>>> Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve  neither.
>>>> Benjamin  Franklin
>>>> __________________________________________________________
>>>>=20
>>>> Ben  Graham
>>>> www.naturaldesignbuild.us
>>>> Natural building/design  services/workshops/consulting
>>>>=20
>>>> Integrating Culture and  Nature
>>>> 802.454.1167
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Those  who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
>> Benjamin  Franklin
>> __________________________________________________________
>>=20
>> Ben Graham
>> www.naturaldesignbuild.us
>> Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting
>>=20
>> Integrating Culture and  Nature
>> 802.454.1167
>>=20
>>=20
>=20


Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
Benjamin Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and Nature
802.454.1167




--B_3313391333_6384276
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	charset="ISO-8859-1"
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: Passive Houses</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'>Thank=
s for that clarification Jeff,<BR>
<BR>
I think LEED has been getting flack for the reason you describe below. &nbs=
p;People seem more interested in certification than real results, otherwise =
it would change. &nbsp;This is basic scientific process. While you can gener=
ally rely on designs to some extent, there has been recent findings that sho=
w a more rigorous analysis is needed to actually achieve it goals. I would t=
ake this as a critique from people who are interested in the same outcome.<B=
R>
<BR>
Ben<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 12/29/08 10:08 AM, &quot;Jeff Gephart&quot; &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt; =
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"=
>Ben et al,<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">A Home Energy Rating (HER) is a projection of a b=
uilding's energy use and comparison of that particular building, to itself, =
built to the International Energy Conservation Code energy-efficiency specif=
ications. &nbsp;For all homes receiving a Home Energy Rating, building tight=
ness is determined by a blower door test at the completion of construction a=
nd the tested tightness is a component of the Home Energy Rating score calcu=
lation. &nbsp;<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">All homes in Vermont within LEED for Homes are ce=
rtified using the <I>Optimize Energy Performance</I> path within the Energy =
&amp; Atmosphere section of LEED for Homes. &nbsp;This means that the LEED f=
or Homes points earned for energy-efficiency are based on the home's Home En=
ergy Rating score, which again includes air tightness results, not just desi=
gn assumptions.<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Results are more important than projections; howe=
ver, it is my understanding that when evaluated, Vermont's Home Energy Ratin=
g projections have been demonstrated to be conservative and that consumption=
 for heating, cooling, and water heating is more commonly slightly less than=
 the Home Energy Rating projection.<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">In the U.S. I doubt we will see any shift toward =
awarding green building certification after a year's worth of actual energy =
use. &nbsp;One of the primary reasons is that builders and developers want t=
o provide buyers with certification at closing. &nbsp;<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Discussions between multiple stakeholders have re=
sulted in an agreement that all homes being certified as green homes in Verm=
ont, whether by the USGBC's LEED for Homes, the NAHB's National Green Buildi=
ng Standards, or BSR's Vermont Builds Greener, will have a Home Energy Ratin=
g (and must at least achieve the ENERGY STAR Home energy-efficiency as a min=
imum level, a threshold less efficient than Passive Haus). &nbsp;So, regardl=
ess of certifying entity, all homes will have a Home Energy Rating (and blow=
er door test) based on inspections at completion.<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Passive Haus criteria are on Efficiency Vermont's=
 radar though it isn't clear if or how they might factor into future in-stat=
e programs or services.<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">FYI,<BR>
Jeff Gephart<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"> <BR>
Vermont ENERGY STAR Homes<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;A service of Efficiency Vermont &amp; Vermont Gas Systems<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
LEED for Homes<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;A U.S. Green Building Council program<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
800-893-1997<BR>
802-767-3861 fax<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<B>Better Buildings By Design Conference<BR>
returns to Vermont February 11-12, 2009.<BR>
</B>Sheraton Conference Center, Burlington.<BR>
www.efficiencyvermont.com/conference <a href=3D"http://www.efficiencyvermont.=
com/conference">&lt;http://www.efficiencyvermont.com/conference&gt;</a> &nbs=
p;<BR>
877-248-9900<BR>
</FONT></SPAN><BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Verdan=
a, Helvetica, Arial"> <BR>
----- Original Message ----- <BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<B>From:</B> &nbsp;Ben &nbsp;Graham <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
US">&lt;mailto:[log in to unmask]&gt;</a> &nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<B>To:</B> [log in to unmask] <BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 28, 2008 11:25 &nbsp;PM<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: [VGBNTALK] Passive &nbsp;Houses<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
That&#8217;s good to know Robert.<BR>
<BR>
There&#8217;s another rub &nbsp;that make&#8217;s the Passive House concept=
 different than LEED and much better for &nbsp;it. &nbsp;It uses actual ener=
gy usage and blower door results. &nbsp;Not just &nbsp;designs.<BR>
Which energy use standards were you using? &nbsp;They haven&#8217;t &nbsp;p=
ublished standards for our climate yet. &nbsp;Probably the closest ones are =
&nbsp;the ones being developed for lapland and sweden.<BR>
<BR>
Ben<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On &nbsp;12/28/08 10:17 PM, &quot;Robert Riversong&quot; &lt;housewright@PO=
NDS-EDGE.NET&gt; &nbsp;wrote:<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
</FONT></SPAN><BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Verdan=
a, Helvetica, Arial">Ben, et al:<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
I just crunched some &nbsp;numbers and discovered that if I modified the su=
perinsulated house I built &nbsp;last year by increasing the south glazing b=
y 60sf (from 138sf to 198sf), &nbsp;using moderate solar heat gain triple gl=
azed instead of double lowE&#8221;, and &nbsp;replaced the exhaust only, pas=
sive inlet ventilation system with a 75% &nbsp;efficient HRV, then it would =
have met all the PassivHaus &nbsp;standards.<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
Maybe next time. <BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
- &nbsp;Robert<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
--- On <B>Sun, 12/28/08, Ben Graham &nbsp;<I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&=
gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
</FONT></SPAN><BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Verdan=
a, Helvetica, Arial">From: Ben Graham &nbsp;&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt=
;<BR>
Subject: Passive Houses<BR>
To: &nbsp;[log in to unmask]<BR>
Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 4:39 &nbsp;PM<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;I wanted to let people know about one of the most &nbsp;far rea=
ching and<BR>
innovative energy efficiency movements in construction &nbsp;called the Pas=
sive<BR>
House Movement. &nbsp;It started in Germany perhaps &nbsp;12-15 years ago s=
purred on by<BR>
the Kyoto Protocol and the German &nbsp;Government. &nbsp;Over 15,000 of th=
ese houses<BR>
have been built in &nbsp;Central Europe and the concept is spreading fast. =
&nbsp;There<BR>
have been &nbsp;few cold climate models but there are many experiments unde=
rway.<BR>
The &nbsp;idea is similar to net zero but more innovative. You can find out=
 &nbsp;more<BR>
details in the links below.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;You can &nbsp;read a report of the 3rd annual Passi=
ve House Conference in the<BR>
US just &nbsp;held in Duluth, MN here:<BR>
<a href=3D"http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47457">http://www.energybulleti=
n.net/node/47457</a><BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;And &nbsp;you can visit the US passive house center=
 here:<BR>
<a href=3D"http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html">http://www=
.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html</a><BR>
<BR>
There &nbsp;is even a smaller movement of building designers working on &nb=
sp;combining<BR>
the Passive House concept with Natural &nbsp;Building.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The passive house model is based &nbsp;on real use =
rather than designs and is<BR>
backed up with fuel use &nbsp;receipts.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;If anyone knows of anyone trying a &nbsp;Passive Ho=
use in VT, please let me<BR>
know.<BR>
<BR>
Cheers, &nbsp;<BR>
Ben<BR>
<BR>
Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve &nbsp;neither.<BR>
Benjamin &nbsp;Franklin<BR>
__________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
Ben &nbsp;Graham<BR>
www.naturaldesignbuild.us<BR>
Natural building/design &nbsp;services/workshops/consulting<BR>
<BR>
Integrating Culture and &nbsp;Nature<BR>
802.454.1167<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Verda=
na, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>
</FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Verda=
na, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></SPAN><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><FONT FACE=3D"Hoefler Text, Times New Roman"><SP=
AN STYLE=3D'font-size:14.0px'><I>Those &nbsp;who give up freedom for safety, d=
eserve neither.<BR>
</I>Benjamin &nbsp;Franklin<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0px'>__________________________________________________________<B=
R>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><SPAN =
STYLE=3D'font-size:14.0px'>Ben Graham<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:14.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Hoefler Text, Time=
s New Roman">www.<B>naturaldesignbuild</B>.us &nbsp;<BR>
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Light"><B>Integrating Culture and &n=
bsp;Nature</B></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Hoefler Text, Times New Roman">802.454.1167<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0px'><BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:12.0px'><BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><FONT FACE=3D"Hoefler Text, Times New Roman"><SP=
AN STYLE=3D'font-size:14.0px'><I>Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve=
 neither.<BR>
</I>Benjamin Franklin<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0px'>__________________________________________________________<B=
R>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"4"><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><SPAN =
STYLE=3D'font-size:14.0px'>Ben Graham<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:14.0px'><FONT FACE=3D"Hoefler Text, Time=
s New Roman">www.<B>naturaldesignbuild</B>.us <BR>
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Light"><B>Integrating Culture and Na=
ture</B></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Hoefler Text, Times New Roman">802.454.1167<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0px'><BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--B_3313391333_6384276--
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:18:39 -0500
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              David Pill <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         David Pill <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Passive Houses
Comments: To: Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
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Hi Folks

 

Our super insulated passive solar house in Charlotte is a LEED platinum home
with an HERS score of 0.  We have been living there since August 07.  We far
exceeded our energy 10 model for performance.

The house is 2700 SF and used  5750 kWh from Jan 10th  to Decemeber 20th 345
days.  That includes all of our electric cooking and about 175
kWh(converted)  wood stove . Our 10kWh net metered turbine has produced more
than that for a net energy gain. 

 

Those are real results

 

David Pill

 

  _____  

From: VGBN Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ben Graham
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 10:29 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Passive Houses

 

Thanks for that clarification Jeff,

I think LEED has been getting flack for the reason you describe below.
People seem more interested in certification than real results, otherwise it
would change.  This is basic scientific process. While you can generally
rely on designs to some extent, there has been recent findings that show a
more rigorous analysis is needed to actually achieve it goals. I would take
this as a critique from people who are interested in the same outcome.

Ben


On 12/29/08 10:08 AM, "Jeff Gephart" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Ben et al,

A Home Energy Rating (HER) is a projection of a building's energy use and
comparison of that particular building, to itself, built to the
International Energy Conservation Code energy-efficiency specifications.
For all homes receiving a Home Energy Rating, building tightness is
determined by a blower door test at the completion of construction and the
tested tightness is a component of the Home Energy Rating score calculation.


All homes in Vermont within LEED for Homes are certified using the Optimize
Energy Performance path within the Energy & Atmosphere section of LEED for
Homes.  This means that the LEED for Homes points earned for
energy-efficiency are based on the home's Home Energy Rating score, which
again includes air tightness results, not just design assumptions.

Results are more important than projections; however, it is my understanding
that when evaluated, Vermont's Home Energy Rating projections have been
demonstrated to be conservative and that consumption for heating, cooling,
and water heating is more commonly slightly less than the Home Energy Rating
projection.

In the U.S. I doubt we will see any shift toward awarding green building
certification after a year's worth of actual energy use.  One of the primary
reasons is that builders and developers want to provide buyers with
certification at closing.  

Discussions between multiple stakeholders have resulted in an agreement that
all homes being certified as green homes in Vermont, whether by the USGBC's
LEED for Homes, the NAHB's National Green Building Standards, or BSR's
Vermont Builds Greener, will have a Home Energy Rating (and must at least
achieve the ENERGY STAR Home energy-efficiency as a minimum level, a
threshold less efficient than Passive Haus).  So, regardless of certifying
entity, all homes will have a Home Energy Rating (and blower door test)
based on inspections at completion.

Passive Haus criteria are on Efficiency Vermont's radar though it isn't
clear if or how they might factor into future in-state programs or services.

FYI,
Jeff Gephart

Vermont ENERGY STAR Homes
  A service of Efficiency Vermont & Vermont Gas Systems
 
LEED for Homes
  A U.S. Green Building Council program
 
800-893-1997
802-767-3861 fax
 
Better Buildings By Design Conference
returns to Vermont February 11-12, 2009.
Sheraton Conference Center, Burlington.
www.efficiencyvermont.com/conference
<http://www.efficiencyvermont.com/conference>
<http://www.efficiencyvermont.com/conference>  
877-248-9900


----- Original Message ----- 
 
From:  Ben  Graham  <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>  
 
To: [log in to unmask] 
 
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 11:25  PM
 
Subject: Re: [VGBNTALK] Passive  Houses
 

That's good to know Robert.

There's another rub  that make's the Passive House concept different than
LEED and much better for  it.  It uses actual energy usage and blower door
results.  Not just  designs.
Which energy use standards were you using?  They haven't  published
standards for our climate yet.  Probably the closest ones are  the ones
being developed for lapland and sweden.

Ben


On  12/28/08 10:17 PM, "Robert Riversong" <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

 

Ben, et al:
 
I just crunched some  numbers and discovered that if I modified the
superinsulated house I built  last year by increasing the south glazing by
60sf (from 138sf to 198sf),  using moderate solar heat gain triple glazed
instead of double lowE", and  replaced the exhaust only, passive inlet
ventilation system with a 75%  efficient HRV, then it would have met all the
PassivHaus  standards.
 
Maybe next time. 
 
-  Robert
 


--- On Sun, 12/28/08, Ben Graham  <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
 

From: Ben Graham  <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Passive Houses
To:  [log in to unmask]
Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 4:39  PM

  I wanted to let people know about one of the most  far reaching and
innovative energy efficiency movements in construction  called the Passive
House Movement.  It started in Germany perhaps  12-15 years ago spurred on
by
the Kyoto Protocol and the German  Government.  Over 15,000 of these houses
have been built in  Central Europe and the concept is spreading fast.  There
have been  few cold climate models but there are many experiments underway.
The  idea is similar to net zero but more innovative. You can find out  more
details in the links below.

    You can  read a report of the 3rd annual Passive House Conference in the
US just  held in Duluth, MN here:
http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47457

    And  you can visit the US passive house center here:
http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html

There  is even a smaller movement of building designers working on
combining
the Passive House concept with Natural  Building.

    The passive house model is based  on real use rather than designs and is
backed up with fuel use  receipts.
    If anyone knows of anyone trying a  Passive House in VT, please let me
know.

Cheers,  
Ben

Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve  neither.
Benjamin  Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben  Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us
Natural building/design  services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and  Nature
802.454.1167

 



Those  who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
Benjamin  Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us  
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and  Nature 
802.454.1167



 



Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
Benjamin Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us 
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and Nature 
802.454.1167




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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi =
Folks<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Our super insulated passive solar =
house in
<st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Charlotte</st1:place></st1:City> is a LEED
platinum home with an HERS score of 0.&nbsp; We have been living there =
since
August 07.&nbsp; We far exceeded our energy 10 model for =
performance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The house is 2700 SF and used =
&nbsp;5750
kWh from Jan 10<sup>th</sup> &nbsp;to Decemeber 20<sup>th</sup> 345 =
days. &nbsp;That
includes all of our electric cooking and about 175 kWh(converted) =
&nbsp;wood
stove . Our 10kWh net metered turbine has produced more than that for a =
net
energy gain. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Those are real =
results<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>David
 Pill</span></font></st1:PersonName><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span=
></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> VGBN =
Discussion
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of </span></b>Ben
Graham<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, December =
29, 2008
10:29 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Passive =
Houses</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D1 =
face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Thanks for that =
clarification Jeff,<br>
<br>
I think LEED has been getting flack for the reason you describe below.
&nbsp;People seem more interested in certification than real results, =
otherwise
it would change. &nbsp;This is basic scientific process. While you can
generally rely on designs to some extent, there has been recent findings =
that
show a more rigorous analysis is needed to actually achieve it goals. I =
would
take this as a critique from people who are interested in the same =
outcome.<br>
<br>
Ben<br>
<br>
<br>
On 12/29/08 10:08 AM, &quot;Jeff Gephart&quot; =
&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;
wrote:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Ben et al,<br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'><br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>A Home Energy Rating (HER) is a projection of a building's energy =
use
and comparison of that particular building, to itself, built to the
International Energy Conservation Code energy-efficiency specifications. =
&nbsp;For
all homes receiving a Home Energy Rating, building tightness is =
determined by a
blower door test at the completion of construction and the tested =
tightness is
a component of the Home Energy Rating score calculation. &nbsp;<br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'><br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>All homes in <st1:State w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Vermont</st1:place></st1:State>
within LEED for Homes are certified using the <i><span =
style=3D'font-style:italic'>Optimize
Energy Performance</span></i> path within the Energy &amp; Atmosphere =
section
of LEED for Homes. &nbsp;This means that the LEED for Homes points =
earned for
energy-efficiency are based on the home's Home Energy Rating score, =
which again
includes air tightness results, not just design assumptions.<br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'><br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>Results are more important than projections; however, it is my
understanding that when evaluated, Vermont's Home Energy Rating =
projections
have been demonstrated to be conservative and that consumption for =
heating,
cooling, and water heating is more commonly slightly less than the Home =
Energy
Rating projection.<br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'><br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>In the <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region>
I doubt we will see any shift toward awarding green building =
certification
after a year's worth of actual energy use. &nbsp;One of the primary =
reasons is
that builders and developers want to provide buyers with certification =
at
closing. &nbsp;<br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'><br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>Discussions between multiple stakeholders have resulted in an =
agreement
that all homes being certified as green homes in Vermont, whether by the
USGBC's LEED for Homes, the NAHB's National Green Building Standards, or =
BSR's
Vermont Builds Greener, will have a Home Energy Rating (and must at =
least
achieve the ENERGY STAR Home energy-efficiency as a minimum level, a =
threshold
less efficient than Passive Haus). &nbsp;So, regardless of certifying =
entity,
all homes will have a Home Energy Rating (and blower door test) based on
inspections at completion.<br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'><br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>Passive Haus criteria are on Efficiency Vermont's radar though it =
isn't
clear if or how they might factor into future in-state programs or =
services.<br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'><br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>FYI,<br>
Jeff Gephart<br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'><br>
Vermont ENERGY STAR Homes<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;A service of Efficiency Vermont &amp; Vermont Gas =
Systems<br>
&nbsp;<br>
LEED for Homes<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;A U.S. Green Building Council program<br>
&nbsp;<br>
800-893-1997<br>
802-767-3861 fax<br>
&nbsp;<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Better Buildings By Design =
Conference<br>
returns to <st1:State w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Vermont</st1:place></st1:State>
February 11-12, 2009.<br>
</span></b><st1:PlaceName w:st=3D"on">Sheraton</st1:PlaceName> =
<st1:PlaceName
w:st=3D"on">Conference</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType =
w:st=3D"on">Center</st1:PlaceType>,
<st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Burlington</st1:place></st1:City>.<br>
www.efficiencyvermont.com/conference <a
href=3D"http://www.efficiencyvermont.com/conference">&lt;http://www.effic=
iencyvermont.com/conference&gt;</a>
&nbsp;<br>
877-248-9900</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'><br>
----- Original Message ----- <br>
&nbsp;<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> &nbsp;Ben =
&nbsp;Graham <a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">&lt;mailto:bfg@NATURALDESIGNBUI=
LD.US&gt;</a>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> [log in to unmask] =
<br>
&nbsp;<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, December =
28, 2008
11:25 &nbsp;PM<br>
&nbsp;<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [VGBNTALK] =
Passive
&nbsp;Houses<br>
&nbsp;<br>
<br>
That&#8217;s good to know Robert.<br>
<br>
There&#8217;s another rub &nbsp;that make&#8217;s the Passive House =
concept
different than LEED and much better for &nbsp;it. &nbsp;It uses actual =
energy
usage and blower door results. &nbsp;Not just &nbsp;designs.<br>
Which energy use standards were you using? &nbsp;They haven&#8217;t
&nbsp;published standards for our climate yet. &nbsp;Probably the =
closest ones
are &nbsp;the ones being developed for lapland and <st1:country-region =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place
 w:st=3D"on">sweden</st1:place></st1:country-region>.<br>
<br>
Ben<br>
<br>
<br>
On &nbsp;12/28/08 10:17 PM, &quot;Robert Riversong&quot;
&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt; &nbsp;wrote:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'>Ben, et al:<br>
&nbsp;<br>
I just crunched some &nbsp;numbers and discovered that if I modified the
superinsulated house I built &nbsp;last year by increasing the south =
glazing by
60sf (from 138sf to 198sf), &nbsp;using moderate solar heat gain triple =
glazed
instead of double lowE&#8221;, and &nbsp;replaced the exhaust only, =
passive
inlet ventilation system with a 75% &nbsp;efficient HRV, then it would =
have met
all the PassivHaus &nbsp;standards.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Maybe next time. <br>
&nbsp;<br>
- &nbsp;Robert<br>
&nbsp;<br>
<br>
<br>
--- On <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sun, 12/28/08, Ben Graham =
&nbsp;<i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'>&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;</span></i><=
/span></b>
wrote:<br>
&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'>From: Ben Graham =
&nbsp;&lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;<br>
Subject: Passive Houses<br>
To: &nbsp;[log in to unmask]<br>
Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 4:39 &nbsp;PM<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;I wanted to let people know about one of the most &nbsp;far
reaching and<br>
innovative energy efficiency movements in construction &nbsp;called the =
Passive<br>
House Movement. &nbsp;It started in <st1:country-region =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place
 w:st=3D"on">Germany</st1:place></st1:country-region> perhaps =
&nbsp;12-15 years
ago spurred on by<br>
the <st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Kyoto</st1:place></st1:City>
Protocol and the German &nbsp;Government. &nbsp;Over 15,000 of these =
houses<br>
have been built in &nbsp;<st1:place w:st=3D"on">Central =
Europe</st1:place> and
the concept is spreading fast. &nbsp;There<br>
have been &nbsp;few cold climate models but there are many experiments
underway.<br>
The &nbsp;idea is similar to net zero but more innovative. You can find =
out
&nbsp;more<br>
details in the links below.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;You can &nbsp;read a report of the 3rd annual =
Passive
House Conference in the<br>
US just &nbsp;held in <st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City =
w:st=3D"on">Duluth</st1:City>,
 <st1:State w:st=3D"on">MN</st1:State></st1:place> here:<br>
<a =
href=3D"http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47457">http://www.energybullet=
in.net/node/47457</a><br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;And &nbsp;you can visit the <st1:country-region =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place
 w:st=3D"on">US</st1:place></st1:country-region> passive house center =
here:<br>
<a =
href=3D"http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html">http://ww=
w.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html</a><br>
<br>
There &nbsp;is even a smaller movement of building designers working on
&nbsp;combining<br>
the Passive House concept with <st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName =
w:st=3D"on">Natural</st1:PlaceName>
 &nbsp;<st1:PlaceType =
w:st=3D"on">Building</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The passive house model is based &nbsp;on real =
use
rather than designs and is<br>
backed up with fuel use &nbsp;receipts.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;If anyone knows of anyone trying a &nbsp;Passive =
House
in VT, please let me<br>
know.<br>
<br>
Cheers, &nbsp;<br>
Ben<br>
<br>
Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve &nbsp;neither.<br>
Benjamin &nbsp;Franklin<br>
__________________________________________________________<br>
<br>
Ben &nbsp;Graham<br>
www.naturaldesignbuild.us<br>
Natural building/design &nbsp;services/workshops/consulting<br>
<br>
Integrating Culture and &nbsp;Nature<br>
802.454.1167</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D1 =
face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><br>
<br>
</span></font><i><font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-style:italic'>Those
&nbsp;who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.<br>
</span></font></i><font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Benjamin
&nbsp;Franklin<br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'>____________________________________________________=
______<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"'>Ben =
Graham<br>
</span></font><font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>www.<b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>naturaldesignbuild</span></b>.us &nbsp;<br>
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting<br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"'><br>
</span></font><b><font size=3D2 face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Light"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Humana Serif ITC =
TT-Light";font-weight:
bold'>Integrating Culture and &nbsp;Nature</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:
"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"'> <br>
</span></font><font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>802.454.1167<br>
<br>
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D1 =
face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><br>
<br>
</span></font><i><font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-style:italic'>Those
who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.<br>
</span></font></i><font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>Benjamin Franklin<br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'>____________________________________________________=
______<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"'>Ben =
Graham<br>
</span></font><font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>www.<b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>naturaldesignbuild</span></b>.us <br>
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting<br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"'><br>
</span></font><b><font size=3D2 face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Light"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Humana Serif ITC =
TT-Light";font-weight:
bold'>Integrating Culture and Nature</span></font></b><font size=3D2
face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:
"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium"'> <br>
</span></font><font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt'>802.454.1167<br>
<br>
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C969A7.333D2570--
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Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 2008 08:48:06 -0800
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Passive Houses
In-Reply-To:  <002401c969d1$1c132d70$6601a8c0@DavidsLT>
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David,
=A0
That's impressive. Could you share the design strategy that achieved those =
results - the buidling envelope materials, methods, windows=A0and R/U value=
s? And, if you're willing the $/sf cost of that level of efficiency?

--- On Mon, 12/29/08, David Pill <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: David Pill <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Passive Houses
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 11:18 AM








Hi Folks
=A0
Our super insulated passive solar house in Charlotte is a LEED platinum hom=
e with an HERS score of 0.=A0 We have been living there since August 07.=A0=
 We far exceeded our energy 10 model for performance.
The house is 2700 SF and used =A05750 kWh from Jan 10th =A0to Decemeber 20t=
h 345 days. =A0That includes all of our electric cooking and about 175 kWh(=
converted) =A0wood stove . Our 10kWh net metered turbine has produced more =
than that for a net energy gain.=20
=A0
Those are real results
=A0
David Pill
=A0




From: VGBN Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ben Graha=
m
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 10:29 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Passive Houses
=A0
Thanks for that clarification Jeff,

I think LEED has been getting flack for the reason you describe below. =A0P=
eople seem more interested in certification than real results, otherwise it=
 would change. =A0This is basic scientific process. While you can generally=
 rely on designs to some extent, there has been recent findings that show a=
 more rigorous analysis is needed to actually achieve it goals. I would tak=
e this as a critique from people who are interested in the same outcome.

Ben


On 12/29/08 10:08 AM, "Jeff Gephart" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Ben et al,

A Home Energy Rating (HER) is a projection of a building's energy use and c=
omparison of that particular building, to itself, built to the Internationa=
l Energy Conservation Code energy-efficiency specifications. =A0For all hom=
es receiving a Home Energy Rating, building tightness is determined by a bl=
ower door test at the completion of construction and the tested tightness i=
s a component of the Home Energy Rating score calculation. =A0

All homes in Vermont within LEED for Homes are certified using the Optimize=
 Energy Performance path within the Energy & Atmosphere section of LEED for=
 Homes. =A0This means that the LEED for Homes points earned for energy-effi=
ciency are based on the home's Home Energy Rating score, which again includ=
es air tightness results, not just design assumptions.

Results are more important than projections; however, it is my understandin=
g that when evaluated, Vermont's Home Energy Rating projections have been d=
emonstrated to be conservative and that consumption for heating, cooling, a=
nd water heating is more commonly slightly less than the Home Energy Rating=
 projection.

In the U.S. I doubt we will see any shift toward awarding green building ce=
rtification after a year's worth of actual energy use. =A0One of the primar=
y reasons is that builders and developers want to provide buyers with certi=
fication at closing. =A0

Discussions between multiple stakeholders have resulted in an agreement tha=
t all homes being certified as green homes in Vermont, whether by the USGBC=
's LEED for Homes, the NAHB's National Green Building Standards, or BSR's V=
ermont Builds Greener, will have a Home Energy Rating (and must at least ac=
hieve the ENERGY STAR Home energy-efficiency as a minimum level, a threshol=
d less efficient than Passive Haus). =A0So, regardless of certifying entity=
, all homes will have a Home Energy Rating (and blower door test) based on =
inspections at completion.

Passive Haus criteria are on Efficiency Vermont's radar though it isn't cle=
ar if or how they might factor into future in-state programs or services.

FYI,
Jeff Gephart

Vermont ENERGY STAR Homes
=A0=A0A service of Efficiency Vermont & Vermont Gas Systems
=A0
LEED for Homes
=A0=A0A U.S. Green Building Council program
=A0
800-893-1997
802-767-3861 fax
=A0
Better Buildings By Design Conference
returns to Vermont February 11-12, 2009.
Sheraton Conference Center , Burlington .
www.efficiencyvermont.com/conference <http://www.efficiencyvermont.com/conf=
erence> =A0
877-248-9900

----- Original Message -----=20
=A0
From: =A0Ben =A0Graham <mailto:[log in to unmask]> =A0
=A0
To: [log in to unmask]
=A0
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 11:25 =A0PM
=A0
Subject: Re: [VGBNTALK] Passive =A0Houses
=A0

That=92s good to know Robert.

There=92s another rub =A0that make=92s the Passive House concept different =
than LEED and much better for =A0it. =A0It uses actual energy usage and blo=
wer door results. =A0Not just =A0designs.
Which energy use standards were you using? =A0They haven=92t =A0published s=
tandards for our climate yet. =A0Probably the closest ones are =A0the ones =
being developed for lapland and sweden .

Ben


On =A012/28/08 10:17 PM, "Robert Riversong" <[log in to unmask]> =
=A0wrote:

=A0
Ben, et al:
=A0
I just crunched some =A0numbers and discovered that if I modified the super=
insulated house I built =A0last year by increasing the south glazing by 60s=
f (from 138sf to 198sf), =A0using moderate solar heat gain triple glazed in=
stead of double lowE=94, and =A0replaced the exhaust only, passive inlet ve=
ntilation system with a 75% =A0efficient HRV, then it would have met all th=
e PassivHaus =A0standards.
=A0
Maybe next time.=20
=A0
- =A0Robert
=A0


--- On Sun, 12/28/08, Ben Graham =A0<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=A0
From: Ben Graham =A0<[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Passive Houses
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 4:39 =A0PM

=A0=A0I wanted to let people know about one of the most =A0far reaching and
innovative energy efficiency movements in construction =A0called the Passiv=
e
House Movement. =A0It started in Germany perhaps =A012-15 years ago spurred=
 on by
the Kyoto Protocol and the German =A0Government. =A0Over 15,000 of these ho=
uses
have been built in =A0 Central Europe and the concept is spreading fast. =
=A0There
have been =A0few cold climate models but there are many experiments underwa=
y.
The =A0idea is similar to net zero but more innovative. You can find out =
=A0more
details in the links below.

=A0=A0=A0=A0You can =A0read a report of the 3rd annual Passive House Confer=
ence in the
US just =A0held in Duluth , MN here:
http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47457

=A0=A0=A0=A0And =A0you can visit the US passive house center here:
http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html

There =A0is even a smaller movement of building designers working on =A0com=
bining
the Passive House concept with Natural =A0 Building .

=A0=A0=A0=A0The passive house model is based =A0on real use rather than des=
igns and is
backed up with fuel use =A0receipts.
=A0=A0=A0=A0If anyone knows of anyone trying a =A0Passive House in VT, plea=
se let me
know.

Cheers, =A0
Ben

Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve =A0neither.
Benjamin =A0Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben =A0Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us
Natural building/design =A0services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and =A0Nature
802.454.1167
=A0


Those =A0who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
Benjamin =A0Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us =A0
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and =A0Nature=20
802.454.1167


=A0


Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
Benjamin Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us=20
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and Nature=20
802.454.1167


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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>David,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>That's impressive. Could you share the design strategy that achieved t=
hose results - the buidling envelope materials, methods, windows&nbsp;and R=
/U values? And, if you're willing the $/sf cost of that level of efficiency=
?<BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 12/29/08, David Pill <I>&lt;[log in to unmask]&g=
t;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(=
16,16,255) 2px solid">From: David Pill &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt;<BR>Sub=
ject: Re: Passive Houses<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Date: Monday, Dece=
mber 29, 2008, 11:18 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv82309748>
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<DIV class=3DSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi Folks</SPAN></FONT=
></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><=
/DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Our super insulated p=
assive solar house in Charlotte is a LEED platinum home with an HERS score =
of 0.&nbsp; We have been living there since August 07.&nbsp; We far exceede=
d our energy 10 model for performance.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The house is 2700 SF =
and used &nbsp;5750 kWh from Jan 10<SUP>th</SUP> &nbsp;to Decemeber 20<SUP>=
th</SUP> 345 days. &nbsp;That includes all of our electric cooking and abou=
t 175 kWh(converted) &nbsp;wood stove . Our 10kWh net metered turbine has p=
roduced more than that for a net energy gain. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><=
/DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Those are real result=
s</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><=
/DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">David Pill</SPAN></FO=
NT><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt;=
 COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><=
/DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=3Dcenter><FONT fa=
ce=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WE=
IGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><F=
ONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tah=
oma"> VGBN Discussion [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT=
-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Ben Graham<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT=
-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, December 29, 2008 10:29 AM<BR><B><S=
PAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B>=
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Passive Houses</S=
PAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D=
"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=3DVerdana siz=
e=3D1><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Thanks for that =
clarification Jeff,<BR><BR>I think LEED has been getting flack for the reas=
on you describe below. &nbsp;People seem more interested in certification t=
han real results, otherwise it would change. &nbsp;This is basic scientific=
 process. While you can generally rely on designs to some extent, there has=
 been recent findings that show a more rigorous analysis is needed to actua=
lly achieve it goals. I would take this as a critique from people who are i=
nterested in the same outcome.<BR><BR>Ben<BR><BR><BR>On 12/29/08 10:08 AM, =
"Jeff Gephart" &lt;[log in to unmask]&gt; wrote:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ben et al,<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana s=
ize=3D1><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR></SPAN></F=
ONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY:=
 Arial">A Home Energy Rating (HER) is a projection of a building's energy u=
se and comparison of that particular building, to itself, built to the Inte=
rnational Energy Conservation Code energy-efficiency specifications. &nbsp;=
For all homes receiving a Home Energy Rating, building tightness is determi=
ned by a blower door test at the completion of construction and the tested =
tightness is a component of the Home Energy Rating score calculation. &nbsp=
;<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D1><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1><S=
PAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">All homes in Vermont withi=
n LEED for Homes are
 certified using the <I><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">Optimize Energy =
Performance</SPAN></I> path within the Energy &amp; Atmosphere section of L=
EED for Homes. &nbsp;This means that the LEED for Homes points earned for e=
nergy-efficiency are based on the home's Home Energy Rating score, which ag=
ain includes air tightness results, not just design assumptions.<BR></SPAN>=
</FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D1><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FA=
MILY: Verdana"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1><SPAN style=3D=
"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Results are more important than projec=
tions; however, it is my understanding that when evaluated, Vermont's Home =
Energy Rating projections have been demonstrated to be conservative and tha=
t consumption for heating, cooling, and water heating is more commonly slig=
htly less than the Home Energy Rating projection.<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT fa=
ce=3DVerdana size=3D1><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY:
 Verdana"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1><SPAN style=3D"FONT=
-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">In the U.S. I doubt we will see any shift t=
oward awarding green building certification after a year's worth of actual =
energy use. &nbsp;One of the primary reasons is that builders and developer=
s want to provide buyers with certification at closing. &nbsp;<BR></SPAN></=
FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D1><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMI=
LY: Verdana"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1><SPAN style=3D"F=
ONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Discussions between multiple stakeholder=
s have resulted in an agreement that all homes being certified as green hom=
es in Vermont, whether by the USGBC's LEED for Homes, the NAHB's National G=
reen Building Standards, or BSR's Vermont Builds Greener, will have a Home =
Energy Rating (and must at least achieve the ENERGY STAR Home energy-effici=
ency as a minimum level, a threshold less efficient than Passive Haus). &nb=
sp;So,
 regardless of certifying entity, all homes will have a Home Energy Rating =
(and blower door test) based on inspections at completion.<BR></SPAN></FONT=
><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D1><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Verdana"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1><SPAN style=3D"FONT-=
SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Passive Haus criteria are on Efficiency Verm=
ont's radar though it isn't clear if or how they might factor into future i=
n-state programs or services.<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D=
1><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR></SPAN></FONT><F=
ONT face=3DArial size=3D1><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial=
">FYI,<BR>Jeff Gephart<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D1><SPAN=
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR>Vermont ENERGY STAR Hom=
es<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;A service of Efficiency Vermont &amp; Vermont Gas Systems=
<BR>&nbsp;<BR>LEED for Homes<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;A U.S. Green Building Council
 program<BR>&nbsp;<BR>800-893-1997<BR>802-767-3861 fax<BR>&nbsp;<BR><B><SPA=
N style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Better Buildings By Design Conference<BR>retu=
rns to Vermont February 11-12, 2009.<BR></SPAN></B>Sheraton Conference Cent=
er , Burlington .<BR>www.efficiencyvermont.com/conference <A href=3D"http:/=
/www.efficiencyvermont.com/conference" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>&lt;h=
ttp://www.efficiencyvermont.com/conference&gt;</A> &nbsp;<BR>877-248-9900</=
SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D1><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE=
: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>&nbsp;<BR=
><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> &nbsp;Ben &nbsp;Grah=
am <A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofol=
low>&lt;mailto:[log in to unmask]&gt;</A> &nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;<BR><B><SP=
AN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> [log in to unmask] <BR>&nb=
sp;<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, Decemb=
er 28, 2008 11:25 &nbsp;PM<BR>&nbsp;<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold=
">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [VGBNTALK] Passive &nbsp;Houses<BR>&nbsp;<BR><BR>=
That=92s good to know Robert.<BR><BR>There=92s another rub &nbsp;that make=
=92s the Passive House concept different than LEED and much better for &nbs=
p;it. &nbsp;It uses actual energy usage and blower door results. &nbsp;Not =
just &nbsp;designs.<BR>Which energy use standards were you using? &nbsp;The=
y haven=92t
 &nbsp;published standards for our climate yet. &nbsp;Probably the closest =
ones are &nbsp;the ones being developed for lapland and sweden .<BR><BR>Ben=
<BR><BR><BR>On &nbsp;12/28/08 10:17 PM, "Robert Riversong" &lt;housewright@=
PONDS-EDGE.NET&gt; &nbsp;wrote:<BR><BR>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D1><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE=
: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Ben, et al:<BR>&nbsp;<BR>I just crunched some =
&nbsp;numbers and discovered that if I modified the superinsulated house I =
built &nbsp;last year by increasing the south glazing by 60sf (from 138sf t=
o 198sf), &nbsp;using moderate solar heat gain triple glazed instead of dou=
ble lowE=94, and &nbsp;replaced the exhaust only, passive inlet ventilation=
 system with a 75% &nbsp;efficient HRV, then it would have met all the Pass=
ivHaus &nbsp;standards.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Maybe next time. <BR>&nbsp;<BR>- &nbsp=
;Robert<BR>&nbsp;<BR><BR><BR>--- On <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Su=
n, 12/28/08, Ben Graham &nbsp;<I><SPAN style=3D"FONT-STYLE: italic">&lt;bfg=
@NATURALDESIGNBUILD.US&gt;</SPAN></I></SPAN></B> wrote:<BR>&nbsp;</SPAN></F=
ONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D1><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE=
: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">From: Ben Graham &nbsp;&lt;bfg@NATURALDESIGNBU=
ILD.US&gt;<BR>Subject: Passive Houses<BR>To: &nbsp;[log in to unmask]<BR=
>Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 4:39 &nbsp;PM<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;I wanted=
 to let people know about one of the most &nbsp;far reaching and<BR>innovat=
ive energy efficiency movements in construction &nbsp;called the Passive<BR=
>House Movement. &nbsp;It started in Germany perhaps &nbsp;12-15 years ago =
spurred on by<BR>the Kyoto Protocol and the German &nbsp;Government. &nbsp;=
Over 15,000 of these houses<BR>have been built in &nbsp; Central Europe and=
 the concept is spreading fast. &nbsp;There<BR>have been &nbsp;few cold cli=
mate models but there are many experiments underway.<BR>The &nbsp;idea is s=
imilar to net zero but more innovative. You can find out &nbsp;more<BR>deta=
ils in the links below.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;You can &nbsp;read a
 report of the 3rd annual Passive House Conference in the<BR>US just &nbsp;=
held in Duluth , MN here:<BR><A href=3D"http://www.energybulletin.net/node/=
47457" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47=
457</A><BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;And &nbsp;you can visit the US passi=
ve house center here:<BR><A href=3D"http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse=
/PHIUSHome.html" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://www.passivehouse.us/=
passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html</A><BR><BR>There &nbsp;is even a smaller moveme=
nt of building designers working on &nbsp;combining<BR>the Passive House co=
ncept with Natural &nbsp; Building .<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The pas=
sive house model is based &nbsp;on real use rather than designs and is<BR>b=
acked up with fuel use &nbsp;receipts.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;If anyone=
 knows of anyone trying a &nbsp;Passive House in VT, please let me<BR>know.=
<BR><BR>Cheers, &nbsp;<BR>Ben<BR><BR>Those who give up freedom for safety,
 deserve &nbsp;neither.<BR>Benjamin &nbsp;Franklin<BR>_____________________=
_____________________________________<BR><BR>Ben &nbsp;Graham<BR>www.natura=
ldesignbuild.us<BR>Natural building/design &nbsp;services/workshops/consult=
ing<BR><BR>Integrating Culture and &nbsp;Nature<BR>802.454.1167</SPAN></FON=
T></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D=
"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=3DVerdana siz=
e=3D1><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR><BR></SPAN><=
/FONT><I><FONT size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-STYLE: itali=
c">Those &nbsp;who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.<BR></SPAN><=
/FONT></I><FONT size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">Benjamin &nbsp;F=
ranklin<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D1><SPAN style=3D"FONT-=
SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">__________________________________________=
________________<BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Med=
ium" size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">Ben Graham<BR></SPAN></FONT=
><FONT size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">www.<B><SPAN style=3D"FON=
T-WEIGHT: bold">naturaldesignbuild</SPAN></B>.us &nbsp;<BR>Natural building=
/design services/workshops/consulting<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3D"Humana=
 Serif ITC TT-Medium" size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt"><BR></SPAN=
></FONT><B><FONT face=3D"Humana Serif
 ITC TT-Light" size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt=
">Integrating Culture and &nbsp;Nature</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=3D"Human=
a Serif ITC TT-Medium" size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt"> <BR></SP=
AN></FONT><FONT size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">802.454.1167<BR>=
<BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D=
"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=3DVerdana siz=
e=3D1><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><BR><BR></SPAN><=
/FONT><I><FONT size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-STYLE: itali=
c">Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.<BR></SPAN></FONT>=
</I><FONT size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">Benjamin Franklin<BR><=
/SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D1><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; F=
ONT-FAMILY: Verdana">______________________________________________________=
____<BR><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Medium" size=3D=
2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">Ben Graham<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=
=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">www.<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: b=
old">naturaldesignbuild</SPAN></B>.us <BR>Natural building/design services/=
workshops/consulting<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Med=
ium" size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt"><BR></SPAN></FONT><B><FONT =
face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Light"
 size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">Integrating =
Culture and Nature</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=3D"Humana Serif ITC TT-Mediu=
m" size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt"> <BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=
=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">802.454.1167<BR><BR></SPAN></FONT></=
DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table>
--0-741346604-1230569286=:41647--
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 2008 09:09:30 -0800
Reply-To:     VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>,
              Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Sender:       VGBN Discussion <[log in to unmask]>
From:         Robert Riversong <[log in to unmask]>
Subject:      Re: Passive Houses
In-Reply-To:  <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-937693695-1230570570=:34206"

--0-937693695-1230570570=:34206
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Ben, et al:
=A0
Design energy analysis vs "real results" is not so black and white. First y=
ear heating load is likely going to be a bit high during the drying out pro=
cess, unless mostly synthetic materials are used. And "real results" depend=
 so much on user interface that there's no fair way to compare them to othe=
r homes.
=A0
What was the thermostat set to? How much were doors and windows opened? How=
 often were the bath and kitchen fans fun? What were the actual internal ga=
ins - cooking, laundry, showering, computers and other electronic "phantom =
loads", how many hours in front fo the TV? How many hours was the house occ=
upied? There are simply far too many use variables to compare one house to =
another in that way.
=A0
A carefully-constructed energy analysis, however, can accurately compare ho=
uses of different sizes and =A0different locations, independent of how they=
 are actually used. The "in-service" energy consumption is valuable informa=
tion to the occupant, but nearly worthless as an evaluation or comparison t=
ool.
=A0
Jeff Gephart said, "Vermont's Home Energy Rating projections have been demo=
nstrated to be conservative and that consumption for heating, cooling, and =
water heating is more commonly slightly less than the Home Energy Rating pr=
ojection." I have found this to be true, in that their HERS rating showed a=
 heating load for my last house 16% higher than I had calculated and 1.8 ti=
mes as much when I include solar heat gains (Jeff - does the HERS number ta=
ke solar gain into account or is it just shell losses?).
=A0
For my past projects, I have found my heat loss/heat gain/solar contributio=
n calculations to very accurately reflect actual consumption. The only way =
we can rate our houses against any standard - PassivHaus or other - is to u=
se an objective analytical tool that excludes user behavior. Our job is to =
refine those tools to make them as accuate as possible. I've been refining =
mine for twenty years.
=A0
- Robert

--- On Mon, 12/29/08, Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Ben Graham <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Passive Houses
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 10:28 AM


Thanks for that clarification Jeff,

I think LEED has been getting flack for the reason you describe below. =A0P=
eople seem more interested in certification than real results, otherwise it=
 would change. =A0This is basic scientific process. While you can generally=
 rely on designs to some extent, there has been recent findings that show a=
 more rigorous analysis is needed to actually achieve it goals. I would tak=
e this as a critique from people who are interested in the same outcome.

Ben


On 12/29/08 10:08 AM, "Jeff Gephart" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


Ben et al,

A Home Energy Rating (HER) is a projection of a building's energy use and c=
omparison of that particular building, to itself, built to the Internationa=
l Energy Conservation Code energy-efficiency specifications. =A0For all hom=
es receiving a Home Energy Rating, building tightness is determined by a bl=
ower door test at the completion of construction and the tested tightness i=
s a component of the Home Energy Rating score calculation. =A0

All homes in Vermont within LEED for Homes are certified using the Optimize=
 Energy Performance path within the Energy & Atmosphere section of LEED for=
 Homes. =A0This means that the LEED for Homes points earned for energy-effi=
ciency are based on the home's Home Energy Rating score, which again includ=
es air tightness results, not just design assumptions.

Results are more important than projections; however, it is my understandin=
g that when evaluated, Vermont's Home Energy Rating projections have been d=
emonstrated to be conservative and that consumption for heating, cooling, a=
nd water heating is more commonly slightly less than the Home Energy Rating=
 projection.

In the U.S. I doubt we will see any shift toward awarding green building ce=
rtification after a year's worth of actual energy use. =A0One of the primar=
y reasons is that builders and developers want to provide buyers with certi=
fication at closing. =A0

Discussions between multiple stakeholders have resulted in an agreement tha=
t all homes being certified as green homes in Vermont, whether by the USGBC=
's LEED for Homes, the NAHB's National Green Building Standards, or BSR's V=
ermont Builds Greener, will have a Home Energy Rating (and must at least ac=
hieve the ENERGY STAR Home energy-efficiency as a minimum level, a threshol=
d less efficient than Passive Haus). =A0So, regardless of certifying entity=
, all homes will have a Home Energy Rating (and blower door test) based on =
inspections at completion.

Passive Haus criteria are on Efficiency Vermont's radar though it isn't cle=
ar if or how they might factor into future in-state programs or services.

FYI,
Jeff Gephart

Vermont ENERGY STAR Homes
=A0=A0A service of Efficiency Vermont & Vermont Gas Systems
=A0
LEED for Homes
=A0=A0A U.S. Green Building Council program
=A0
800-893-1997
802-767-3861 fax
=A0
Better Buildings By Design Conference
returns to Vermont February 11-12, 2009.
Sheraton Conference Center, Burlington.
www.efficiencyvermont.com/conference <http://www.efficiencyvermont.com/conf=
erence> =A0
877-248-9900


----- Original Message -----=20
=A0
From: =A0Ben =A0Graham <mailto:[log in to unmask]> =A0
=A0
To: [log in to unmask]
=A0
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 11:25 =A0PM
=A0
Subject: Re: [VGBNTALK] Passive =A0Houses
=A0

That=92s good to know Robert.

There=92s another rub =A0that make=92s the Passive House concept different =
than LEED and much better for =A0it. =A0It uses actual energy usage and blo=
wer door results. =A0Not just =A0designs.
Which energy use standards were you using? =A0They haven=92t =A0published s=
tandards for our climate yet. =A0Probably the closest ones are =A0the ones =
being developed for lapland and sweden.

Ben


On =A012/28/08 10:17 PM, "Robert Riversong" <[log in to unmask]> =
=A0wrote:

=A0

Ben, et al:
=A0
I just crunched some =A0numbers and discovered that if I modified the super=
insulated house I built =A0last year by increasing the south glazing by 60s=
f (from 138sf to 198sf), =A0using moderate solar heat gain triple glazed in=
stead of double lowE=94, and =A0replaced the exhaust only, passive inlet ve=
ntilation system with a 75% =A0efficient HRV, then it would have met all th=
e PassivHaus =A0standards.
=A0
Maybe next time.=20
=A0
- =A0Robert
=A0


--- On Sun, 12/28/08, Ben Graham =A0<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=A0

From: Ben Graham =A0<[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Passive Houses
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 4:39 =A0PM

=A0=A0I wanted to let people know about one of the most =A0far reaching and
innovative energy efficiency movements in construction =A0called the Passiv=
e
House Movement. =A0It started in Germany perhaps =A012-15 years ago spurred=
 on by
the Kyoto Protocol and the German =A0Government. =A0Over 15,000 of these ho=
uses
have been built in =A0Central Europe and the concept is spreading fast. =A0=
There
have been =A0few cold climate models but there are many experiments underwa=
y.
The =A0idea is similar to net zero but more innovative. You can find out =
=A0more
details in the links below.

=A0=A0=A0=A0You can =A0read a report of the 3rd annual Passive House Confer=
ence in the
US just =A0held in Duluth, MN here:
http://www.energybulletin.net/node/47457

=A0=A0=A0=A0And =A0you can visit the US passive house center here:
http://www.passivehouse.us/passiveHouse/PHIUSHome.html

There =A0is even a smaller movement of building designers working on =A0com=
bining
the Passive House concept with Natural =A0Building.

=A0=A0=A0=A0The passive house model is based =A0on real use rather than des=
igns and is
backed up with fuel use =A0receipts.
=A0=A0=A0=A0If anyone knows of anyone trying a =A0Passive House in VT, plea=
se let me
know.

Cheers, =A0
Ben

Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve =A0neither.
Benjamin =A0Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben =A0Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us
Natural building/design =A0services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and =A0Nature
802.454.1167



Those =A0who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
Benjamin =A0Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us =A0
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and =A0Nature=20
802.454.1167





Those who give up freedom for safety, deserve neither.
Benjamin Franklin
__________________________________________________________

Ben Graham
www.naturaldesignbuild.us=20
Natural building/design services/workshops/consulting

Integrating Culture and Nature=20
802.454.1167



--0-937693695-1230570570=:34206
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>Ben, et al:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Design energy analysis vs "real results" is not so black and white. Fi=
rst year heating load is likely going to be a bit high during the drying ou=
t process, unless mostly synthetic materials are used. And "real results" d=
epend so much on user interface that there's no fair way to compare them to=
 other homes.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>What was the thermostat set to? How much were doors and windows opened=
? How often were the bath and kitchen fans fun? What were the actual intern=
al gains - cooking, laundry, showering, computers and other electronic "pha=
ntom loads", how many hours in front fo the TV? How many hours was the hous=
e occupied? There are simply far too many use variables to compare one hous=
e to another in that way.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>A carefully-constructed energy analysis, however, can accurately compa=
re houses of different sizes and &nbsp;different locations, independent of =
how they are actually used. The "in-service" energy consumption is valuable=
 information to the occupant, but nearly worthless as an evaluation or comp=
arison tool.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jeff Gephart said, "Vermont's Home Energy Rating projections have been=
 demonstrated to be conservative and that consumption for heating, cooling,=
 and water heating is more commonly slightly less than the Home Energy Rati=
ng projection." I have found this to be true, in that their HERS rating sho=
wed a heating load for my last house 16% higher than I had calculated and 1=
.8 times as much when I include solar heat gains (Jeff - does the HERS numb=
er take solar gain into account or is it just shell losses?).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>For my past projects, I have found my heat loss/heat gain/solar contri=
bution calculations to very accurately reflect actual consumption. The only=
 way we can rate our houses against any standard - PassivHaus or other - is=
 to use an objective anal