On 7/21/11 11:46 AM, "Michael
Balter" <[log in to unmask]>
Since Larry knows a lot about water and its properties
perhaps he can
tell us how likely it is that water molecules would
specific "structure" long enough for it to be
not only measured but
My fellow water-lover Larry Romsted wrote:
I wanted to read some of Montagnier's
papers before joining this discussion, but I can give some
approximate numbers for the rate constants and half lives (the
time for one half of the bonds in a collection of bonds to break)
without reading any papers by Montagnier.
Liquid water, i.e., water above 0 oC
(freezing point) and below 100 oC (boiling point) is held
together primarily by hydrogen bonds. Hydrogen bond strengths, that is
the weak bond (represented as ....) between two water
molecules H-O-H....OH2, is on the order of 5 Kcal/mole of water.
That is a very weak and therefore transient bond. Such
bonds break with a rate constant on the order of 10^9 sec-1.
10x10x10...., 9 times. Put differently, the time for half
of the bonds to break would be on the order of 10^-9 seconds
(s). That is, 0.000000001 s. That is a very short period of
time (understatement), but the chemical bonds of water are breaking
and reforming on this time scale.
In aqueous solution water molecules
hydrated (solvate) every molecule that dissolves in water.
The bond strengths with all kinds of different groups on molecules in
water are about the same strength as the hydrogen bond, or less.
This means that interactions with water are weak, but multiple
it is these rapidly forming and breaking
multiple bonds that stabilize molecules in solution.
I cannot imagine water molecules
remembering anything about the size or shape of a molecule that
they solvated after the molecule is removed for a time period much
longer than the above time scale because water is a
fluid composed of weak hydrogen bonds with very short
Ice, however, is a solid and another
story. If a molecule that is entrapped in ice can be
removed, the ice could certainly contain a hole in the shape of the
molecule that disappeared for a much longer period
antidote for any tendency to think water is well understood is to
Felix Franks WATER.
slim volume is a standard antidote when we notice any student
developing a belief that aqueous solutions of macromolecules are
largely understood. Franks has edited the definitive
dozen-volume monograph on water which you can find in any good science
library, but this little book is his summary - mainly just
on water itself, the pure substance with the deceptively simple
formula H2O. It is an easy evening's
read. By about Ch 2 you'll be convinced that many key properties
of water are not explained. Near the end of the book Franks
discusses briefly aqueous solutions, mainly of simple salts.
It will not by that stage surprise you that these are even less
understood; and what little he has to say about macromolecules will
leave the impression that even less is understood.
that is the type of chemical system in which an incompletely-described
electrical system is said to have detected some unaccounted-for
resonances. Inferring 'exciting' Noo Eege conclusions is
pathetic. Less so is overconfident assertion that no such
phenomenon could occur, just because we have no mechanism for