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Yes, that was an issue for us missing West Conn because of weather and 
travel danger.

Best 6 or 7 would solve that.

T


On 9/4/12 5:22 PM, Stephen Llano wrote:
> I was actually thinking more about situations beyond the control of 
> the team - such as weather and finances prohibiting travel to the "Big 
> 6" tournaments. I'm pretty sure that the sweepstakes is not so 
> important that someone would descend on some small tournament just to 
> collect the points.
>
> But if folks think this is a big issue, perhaps we can just let the 
> next largest one they went to in the Northeast serve as the tournament 
> that replaces the one they couldn't afford to go to?
>
> Llano
>
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Alfred C Snider <[log in to unmask] 
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>
>     Noted.
>
>     Any more comments on this? if there is a sense to cancel it, speak
>     up now, because we seem to be headed towards a repeat with minor
>     changes. If so, I will try and incorporate them and offer a new
>     set of guidelines. Let me know if you would approve of Llano's idea.
>
>     For me, that idea would reward someone who went to a small
>     tournament, a lot of teams came from one school, and they won
>     everything.
>
>     T
>
>
>     On 9/3/12 10:16 AM, Stephen Llano wrote:
>>     Actually that is a pretty good criticism Ruth brings up. I am not
>>     a numbers guy - so how would it hurt the sweepstakes to have each
>>     school count their 6 best performances at any Northeastern
>>     tournament? Would that be a mathematical nightmare to figure out,
>>     or would it not measure anything? It seems that having 6 of the
>>     same tournaments gives a good baseline, but then again we are
>>     dealing with debating statistics which can be made to look like
>>     anything.
>>
>>     Llano
>>
>>     On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Ruth Zisman
>>     <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>>
>>         Yeah, I see no harm in having the regional sweepstakes and if
>>         it helps to create goals from some students/programs then
>>         that is great.
>>
>>         As far as the criticism that Tuna mentioned about how the
>>         sweepstakes seem to always benefit larger/more established
>>         programs, it seems like part of the reason for this is that
>>         many of the smaller/newer programs are not able to attend all
>>         six of the tournaments that "count" for points. Whereas, all
>>         of the "bigger" programs are clearly attending all six of
>>         these tournaments in full force. In looking at the 2011-2012
>>         sweeps chart, this is very evident. It seems that Grove City
>>         was only able to attend 3 of the "counting" tournaments, Cape
>>         Cod only 4, RIT 4, etc.
>>
>>         So if there was interest in trying to make the sweepstakes
>>         awards something more accessible for all types of programs
>>         (large and small in number and budget), you might consider
>>         changing the system to just count each program's best four or
>>         five tournaments out of the six that are deemed to "count"
>>         rather than counting all 6. In other words, I don't think it
>>         is the number of debaters that is hurting these smaller
>>         programs but the number of tournaments that they are able to
>>         attend.
>>
>>         This is just a thought and one interpretation of last year's
>>         numbers.
>>
>>
>>
>>         On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:18 AM, [log in to unmask]
>>         <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <[log in to unmask]
>>         <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>>
>>             I'm with Llano -- keep it going, please.
>>
>>             kj
>>
>>             Ken R. Johnson
>>             Director of Forensics
>>             English Department
>>             University of Rochester
>>
>>             Office: 585-273-5223 <tel:585-273-5223>
>>             Cell: 585-781-0040 <tel:585-781-0040>
>>
>>             Debate Blog: http://universityofrochesterdebate.wordpress.com
>>
>>             ----- Original Message -----
>>             From: "Stephen Llano" <[log in to unmask]
>>             <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>             To: [log in to unmask]
>>             <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>             Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2012 11:47:51 PM
>>             Subject: Re: NEUDC Sweepstakes Ideas
>>
>>             I like the NE sweeps simply because it motivates my newer
>>             students quite a bit, they dig it. And I think the
>>             corrections made a couple of years ago have worked well.
>>
>>
>>             Llano
>>
>>
>>             On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 7:46 PM, Alfred C Snider <
>>             [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>             Hi Ruth!
>>
>>             Not my arguments, but here are some I can think of:
>>
>>
>>
>>                 * Big programs will almost always win.
>>                 * It does not benefit new schools for them to be at
>>             the bottom.
>>                 * People may "game the system" by not attending
>>             smaller tournaments.
>>                 * In general, hurt smaller and newer tournaments.
>>             But, helps top 6 tournaments.
>>                 * Increases competition between schools instead of
>>             between people.
>>                 * Now we have a world sweeps we do not need a
>>             regional one.
>>
>>             I am sure there are more. Not trying to advocate, just
>>             trying to share.
>>
>>             Tuna
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>             On 9/2/12 7:19 PM, Ruth Zisman wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>             For those of us who have not been following this
>>             discussion for very long, could you remind us what the
>>             "solid criticisms" are of the current system?
>>
>>             I do recall that there was a criticism of the old system
>>             because in allowing schools to count any/all worlds
>>             tournaments that they attended, this would of course
>>             highly favor schools with the capacity/finances to travel
>>             internationally, extensively, etc. But I do not recall
>>             the criticisms of the system as it is.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>             On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 6:57 PM, Alfred C Snider <
>>             [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>             Change it? Keep it the same? End it?
>>
>>
>>
>>             What do you think?
>>
>>
>>
>>             Do we want to end this sweepstakes? There have been solid
>>             criticisms. What say you? Discuss.
>>             or
>>             Shall we go ahead and do it again?
>>
>>
>>
>>             Changes, see the amended below. Or, we can go back to the
>>             original. Actually, we can do whatever we would like.
>>
>>
>>
>>             Would someone else like to count the sweepstakes points
>>             and put it online? That would be fine with me, in fact
>>             that sounds great as long as someone will do it
>>             correctly. To be quite honest, my math has been spotty at
>>             times, but close watchers have helped.
>>
>>
>>             I am looking forward to debate in our region continuing
>>             to grow and improve in quality.
>>
>>
>>
>>             Tuna
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>             2012-13 NEUDC SWEEPSTAKES PROPOSAL
>>
>>
>>
>>             BECOMING A PART OF THE SWEEPSTAKES:
>>
>>
>>             • YOU SELF-IDENTIFY TO BE PART OF THE SWEEPSTAKES. THIS
>>             MEANS YOU SEND A REQUEST TO BE LISTED FOR THE YEAR.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>             TOURNAMENTS AND POINTS:
>>
>>
>>                 *
>>
>>             MUST BE A WUDC FORMAT TOURNAMENT.
>>                 *
>>
>>
>>
>>             CAN COUNT THE RESULTS FROM THE LARGEST SEVEN TOURNAMENTS
>>             IN THE NORTHEAST (NEW ENGLAND, NEW YORK, NEW JERSEY).
>>             THIS MAY INCLUDE USU IF IT IS HELD IN THE NORTHEAST. IT
>>             DOES COUNT YALE BUT NOT TOURNAMENTS IN CANADA. IF WORLDS
>>             IS HELD IN THE NORTHEAST IT WILL COUNT.
>>
>>
>>             BEST FOUR TEAMS COUNT FOR SWEEPSTAKES.
>>
>>
>>             • 1 ST =3 POINTS, 2 ND =2 POINTS, 3 RD =1 POINT, 4 TH =0
>>             POINTS.
>>
>>
>>             • COUNT THE LAST SIX ROUNDS.
>>
>>
>>             • 6 FOR ADVANCING IN ELIMS.
>>
>>
>>             • 10 FIRST PLACE, 7 SECOND PLACE.
>>
>>
>>             • HOSTING TEAMS CAN DEBATE BUT NOT GET POINTS, UNLESS
>>             HOSTING USU NATIONALS OR THE NATIONAL NOVICE TOURNAMENT.
>>             IF A TEAM HOSTS A TOURNAMENT, THEY CAN COUNT THE NEXT
>>             BIGGEST TOURNAMENT SO EVERYONE GETS SIX TOURNAMENTS TO COUNT.
>>
>>
>>             • COUNT TOURNAMENTS DURING THE ACADEMIC YEAR SEPT 1 UNTIL
>>             MAY 1.
>>
>>
>>             • HYBRIDS CAN DEBATE BUT NOT GET POINTS.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>             AWARDS
>>
>>
>>             • AWARDS GO TO THE TOP FIVE SCHOOLS
>>
>>
>>             • THE NUMBER ONE SCHOOL HAS TO BUY THE AWARDS.
>>
>>
>>             • AWARDS MUST BE ENGRAVED WITH SCHOOL NAMES.
>>
>>
>>             • THE AWARDS FOR 1-5 MUST BE THE SAME SIZE.
>>
>>
>>             • MUST BE DELIVERED BY OCTOBER 1 OF FOLLOWING YEAR OR AT
>>             FIRST REGIONAL TOURNAMENT.
>>             --
>>             Alfred C. Snider aka Tuna
>>             Edwin Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont
>>             Huber House, 475 Main Street, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA
>>             Lawrence Debate Union
>>             http://debate.uvm.edu/debateblog/LDU/ Global Debate Blog
>>             http://globaldebateblog.blogspot.com Debate Central
>>             http://debate.uvm.edu 802-656-0097 <tel:802-656-0097>
>>             office; 802-238-8345 <tel:802-238-8345> mobile;
>>             802-656-4275 <tel:802-656-4275> fax
>>             @asnider Twitter
>>
>>             NOTICE: I am traveling to promote debate this summer
>>             (Serbia, Slovenia, Cameroon, Romania) and I will have
>>             Internet access of uncertain frequency and quality.
>>             Please be patient with me.
>>
>>
>>
>>             --
>>             Alfred C. Snider aka Tuna
>>             Edwin Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont
>>             Huber House, 475 Main Street, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA
>>             Lawrence Debate Union
>>             http://debate.uvm.edu/debateblog/LDU/ Global Debate Blog
>>             http://globaldebateblog.blogspot.com Debate Central
>>             http://debate.uvm.edu 802-656-0097 <tel:802-656-0097>
>>             office; 802-238-8345 <tel:802-238-8345> mobile;
>>             802-656-4275 <tel:802-656-4275> fax
>>             @asnider Twitter
>>
>>             Please realize that I am often on the road with travels
>>             all over the world. I may not be able to respond to you
>>             immediately. See my calendar at
>>             http://debate.uvm.edu/tunacalendar.html
>>
>>
>>
>>             --
>>             _____
>>             Stephen Llano, Ph.D.
>>             Director of Debate and Assistant Professor, Department of
>>             Rhetoric, Communication & Theater
>>             St. John’s University
>>             Queens, NY
>>             718-990-5606 <tel:718-990-5606>(voice) 718-990-2435
>>             <tel:718-990-2435> (fax)
>>             callto://stevellano -- Skype Me!
>>
>>             "Knit the brows, and a strategem comes to mind." - Lo
>>             Kuan-chung, Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
>>
>>             "Poetry is a rival government always in opposition to its
>>             cruder replicas." - William Carlos Williams
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     -- 
>>     _____
>>     Stephen Llano, Ph.D.
>>     Director of Debate and Assistant Professor, Department of
>>     Rhetoric, Communication & Theater
>>     St. John’s University
>>     Queens, NY
>>     718-990-5606 <tel:718-990-5606>(voice) 718-990-2435
>>     <tel:718-990-2435> (fax)
>>     callto://stevellano -- Skype Me!
>>
>>     "Knit the brows, and a strategem comes to mind." - Lo Kuan-chung,
>>     Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
>>
>>     "Poetry is a rival government always in opposition to its cruder
>>     replicas." - William Carlos Williams
>>
>
>     -- 
>     Alfred C. Snider aka Tuna
>     Edwin Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont
>     Huber House, 475 Main Street, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA
>     Lawrence Debate Unionhttp://debate.uvm.edu/debateblog/LDU/  
>     Global Debate Bloghttp://globaldebateblog.blogspot.com  
>     Debate Centralhttp://debate.uvm.edu
>     802-656-0097  <tel:802-656-0097>  office;802-238-8345  <tel:802-238-8345>  mobile;802-656-4275  <tel:802-656-4275>  fax
>     @asnider Twitter
>
>     Please realize that I am often on the road with travels all over the world. I may not be able to respond to you immediately. See my calendar at
>     http://debate.uvm.edu/tunacalendar.html  
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> _____
> Stephen Llano, Ph.D.
> Director of Debate and Assistant Professor, Department of Rhetoric, 
> Communication & Theater
> St. John’s University
> Queens, NY
> 718-990-5606(voice) 718-990-2435 (fax)
> callto://stevellano -- Skype Me!
>
> "Knit the brows, and a strategem comes to mind." - Lo Kuan-chung, 
> Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
>
> "Poetry is a rival government always in opposition to its cruder 
> replicas." - William Carlos Williams
>

-- 
Alfred C. Snider aka Tuna
Edwin Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont
Huber House, 475 Main Street, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA
Lawrence Debate Union http://debate.uvm.edu/debateblog/LDU/
Global Debate Blog http://globaldebateblog.blogspot.com
Debate Central http://debate.uvm.edu
802-656-0097 office; 802-238-8345 mobile;802-656-4275 fax
@asnider Twitter

Please realize that I am often on the road with travels all over the world. I may not be able to respond to you immediately. See my calendar at
http://debate.uvm.edu/tunacalendar.html