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Yes, that was an issue for us missing West Conn because of weather and travel danger. Best 6 or 7 would solve that. T On 9/4/12 5:22 PM, Stephen Llano wrote: > I was actually thinking more about situations beyond the control of > the team - such as weather and finances prohibiting travel to the "Big > 6" tournaments. I'm pretty sure that the sweepstakes is not so > important that someone would descend on some small tournament just to > collect the points. > > But if folks think this is a big issue, perhaps we can just let the > next largest one they went to in the Northeast serve as the tournament > that replaces the one they couldn't afford to go to? > > Llano > > On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Alfred C Snider <[log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: > > Noted. > > Any more comments on this? if there is a sense to cancel it, speak > up now, because we seem to be headed towards a repeat with minor > changes. If so, I will try and incorporate them and offer a new > set of guidelines. Let me know if you would approve of Llano's idea. > > For me, that idea would reward someone who went to a small > tournament, a lot of teams came from one school, and they won > everything. > > T > > > On 9/3/12 10:16 AM, Stephen Llano wrote: >> Actually that is a pretty good criticism Ruth brings up. I am not >> a numbers guy - so how would it hurt the sweepstakes to have each >> school count their 6 best performances at any Northeastern >> tournament? Would that be a mathematical nightmare to figure out, >> or would it not measure anything? It seems that having 6 of the >> same tournaments gives a good baseline, but then again we are >> dealing with debating statistics which can be made to look like >> anything. >> >> Llano >> >> On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Ruth Zisman >> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >> >> Yeah, I see no harm in having the regional sweepstakes and if >> it helps to create goals from some students/programs then >> that is great. >> >> As far as the criticism that Tuna mentioned about how the >> sweepstakes seem to always benefit larger/more established >> programs, it seems like part of the reason for this is that >> many of the smaller/newer programs are not able to attend all >> six of the tournaments that "count" for points. Whereas, all >> of the "bigger" programs are clearly attending all six of >> these tournaments in full force. In looking at the 2011-2012 >> sweeps chart, this is very evident. It seems that Grove City >> was only able to attend 3 of the "counting" tournaments, Cape >> Cod only 4, RIT 4, etc. >> >> So if there was interest in trying to make the sweepstakes >> awards something more accessible for all types of programs >> (large and small in number and budget), you might consider >> changing the system to just count each program's best four or >> five tournaments out of the six that are deemed to "count" >> rather than counting all 6. In other words, I don't think it >> is the number of debaters that is hurting these smaller >> programs but the number of tournaments that they are able to >> attend. >> >> This is just a thought and one interpretation of last year's >> numbers. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:18 AM, [log in to unmask] >> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <[log in to unmask] >> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >> >> I'm with Llano -- keep it going, please. >> >> kj >> >> Ken R. Johnson >> Director of Forensics >> English Department >> University of Rochester >> >> Office: 585-273-5223 <tel:585-273-5223> >> Cell: 585-781-0040 <tel:585-781-0040> >> >> Debate Blog: http://universityofrochesterdebate.wordpress.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Stephen Llano" <[log in to unmask] >> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >> To: [log in to unmask] >> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >> Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2012 11:47:51 PM >> Subject: Re: NEUDC Sweepstakes Ideas >> >> I like the NE sweeps simply because it motivates my newer >> students quite a bit, they dig it. And I think the >> corrections made a couple of years ago have worked well. >> >> >> Llano >> >> >> On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 7:46 PM, Alfred C Snider < >> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi Ruth! >> >> Not my arguments, but here are some I can think of: >> >> >> >> * Big programs will almost always win. >> * It does not benefit new schools for them to be at >> the bottom. >> * People may "game the system" by not attending >> smaller tournaments. >> * In general, hurt smaller and newer tournaments. >> But, helps top 6 tournaments. >> * Increases competition between schools instead of >> between people. >> * Now we have a world sweeps we do not need a >> regional one. >> >> I am sure there are more. Not trying to advocate, just >> trying to share. >> >> Tuna >> >> >> >> >> >> On 9/2/12 7:19 PM, Ruth Zisman wrote: >> >> >> >> For those of us who have not been following this >> discussion for very long, could you remind us what the >> "solid criticisms" are of the current system? >> >> I do recall that there was a criticism of the old system >> because in allowing schools to count any/all worlds >> tournaments that they attended, this would of course >> highly favor schools with the capacity/finances to travel >> internationally, extensively, etc. But I do not recall >> the criticisms of the system as it is. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 6:57 PM, Alfred C Snider < >> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Change it? Keep it the same? End it? >> >> >> >> What do you think? >> >> >> >> Do we want to end this sweepstakes? There have been solid >> criticisms. What say you? Discuss. >> or >> Shall we go ahead and do it again? >> >> >> >> Changes, see the amended below. Or, we can go back to the >> original. Actually, we can do whatever we would like. >> >> >> >> Would someone else like to count the sweepstakes points >> and put it online? That would be fine with me, in fact >> that sounds great as long as someone will do it >> correctly. To be quite honest, my math has been spotty at >> times, but close watchers have helped. >> >> >> I am looking forward to debate in our region continuing >> to grow and improve in quality. >> >> >> >> Tuna >> >> >> >> >> >> 2012-13 NEUDC SWEEPSTAKES PROPOSAL >> >> >> >> BECOMING A PART OF THE SWEEPSTAKES: >> >> >> • YOU SELF-IDENTIFY TO BE PART OF THE SWEEPSTAKES. THIS >> MEANS YOU SEND A REQUEST TO BE LISTED FOR THE YEAR. >> >> >> >> >> >> TOURNAMENTS AND POINTS: >> >> >> * >> >> MUST BE A WUDC FORMAT TOURNAMENT. >> * >> >> >> >> CAN COUNT THE RESULTS FROM THE LARGEST SEVEN TOURNAMENTS >> IN THE NORTHEAST (NEW ENGLAND, NEW YORK, NEW JERSEY). >> THIS MAY INCLUDE USU IF IT IS HELD IN THE NORTHEAST. IT >> DOES COUNT YALE BUT NOT TOURNAMENTS IN CANADA. IF WORLDS >> IS HELD IN THE NORTHEAST IT WILL COUNT. >> >> >> BEST FOUR TEAMS COUNT FOR SWEEPSTAKES. >> >> >> • 1 ST =3 POINTS, 2 ND =2 POINTS, 3 RD =1 POINT, 4 TH =0 >> POINTS. >> >> >> • COUNT THE LAST SIX ROUNDS. >> >> >> • 6 FOR ADVANCING IN ELIMS. >> >> >> • 10 FIRST PLACE, 7 SECOND PLACE. >> >> >> • HOSTING TEAMS CAN DEBATE BUT NOT GET POINTS, UNLESS >> HOSTING USU NATIONALS OR THE NATIONAL NOVICE TOURNAMENT. >> IF A TEAM HOSTS A TOURNAMENT, THEY CAN COUNT THE NEXT >> BIGGEST TOURNAMENT SO EVERYONE GETS SIX TOURNAMENTS TO COUNT. >> >> >> • COUNT TOURNAMENTS DURING THE ACADEMIC YEAR SEPT 1 UNTIL >> MAY 1. >> >> >> • HYBRIDS CAN DEBATE BUT NOT GET POINTS. >> >> >> >> >> >> AWARDS >> >> >> • AWARDS GO TO THE TOP FIVE SCHOOLS >> >> >> • THE NUMBER ONE SCHOOL HAS TO BUY THE AWARDS. >> >> >> • AWARDS MUST BE ENGRAVED WITH SCHOOL NAMES. >> >> >> • THE AWARDS FOR 1-5 MUST BE THE SAME SIZE. >> >> >> • MUST BE DELIVERED BY OCTOBER 1 OF FOLLOWING YEAR OR AT >> FIRST REGIONAL TOURNAMENT. >> -- >> Alfred C. Snider aka Tuna >> Edwin Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont >> Huber House, 475 Main Street, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA >> Lawrence Debate Union >> http://debate.uvm.edu/debateblog/LDU/ Global Debate Blog >> http://globaldebateblog.blogspot.com Debate Central >> http://debate.uvm.edu 802-656-0097 <tel:802-656-0097> >> office; 802-238-8345 <tel:802-238-8345> mobile; >> 802-656-4275 <tel:802-656-4275> fax >> @asnider Twitter >> >> NOTICE: I am traveling to promote debate this summer >> (Serbia, Slovenia, Cameroon, Romania) and I will have >> Internet access of uncertain frequency and quality. >> Please be patient with me. >> >> >> >> -- >> Alfred C. Snider aka Tuna >> Edwin Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont >> Huber House, 475 Main Street, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA >> Lawrence Debate Union >> http://debate.uvm.edu/debateblog/LDU/ Global Debate Blog >> http://globaldebateblog.blogspot.com Debate Central >> http://debate.uvm.edu 802-656-0097 <tel:802-656-0097> >> office; 802-238-8345 <tel:802-238-8345> mobile; >> 802-656-4275 <tel:802-656-4275> fax >> @asnider Twitter >> >> Please realize that I am often on the road with travels >> all over the world. I may not be able to respond to you >> immediately. See my calendar at >> http://debate.uvm.edu/tunacalendar.html >> >> >> >> -- >> _____ >> Stephen Llano, Ph.D. >> Director of Debate and Assistant Professor, Department of >> Rhetoric, Communication & Theater >> St. John’s University >> Queens, NY >> 718-990-5606 <tel:718-990-5606>(voice) 718-990-2435 >> <tel:718-990-2435> (fax) >> callto://stevellano -- Skype Me! >> >> "Knit the brows, and a strategem comes to mind." - Lo >> Kuan-chung, Romance of the Three Kingdoms. >> >> "Poetry is a rival government always in opposition to its >> cruder replicas." - William Carlos Williams >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> _____ >> Stephen Llano, Ph.D. >> Director of Debate and Assistant Professor, Department of >> Rhetoric, Communication & Theater >> St. John’s University >> Queens, NY >> 718-990-5606 <tel:718-990-5606>(voice) 718-990-2435 >> <tel:718-990-2435> (fax) >> callto://stevellano -- Skype Me! >> >> "Knit the brows, and a strategem comes to mind." - Lo Kuan-chung, >> Romance of the Three Kingdoms. >> >> "Poetry is a rival government always in opposition to its cruder >> replicas." - William Carlos Williams >> > > -- > Alfred C. Snider aka Tuna > Edwin Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont > Huber House, 475 Main Street, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA > Lawrence Debate Unionhttp://debate.uvm.edu/debateblog/LDU/ > Global Debate Bloghttp://globaldebateblog.blogspot.com > Debate Centralhttp://debate.uvm.edu > 802-656-0097 <tel:802-656-0097> office;802-238-8345 <tel:802-238-8345> mobile;802-656-4275 <tel:802-656-4275> fax > @asnider Twitter > > Please realize that I am often on the road with travels all over the world. I may not be able to respond to you immediately. See my calendar at > http://debate.uvm.edu/tunacalendar.html > > > > > -- > _____ > Stephen Llano, Ph.D. > Director of Debate and Assistant Professor, Department of Rhetoric, > Communication & Theater > St. John’s University > Queens, NY > 718-990-5606(voice) 718-990-2435 (fax) > callto://stevellano -- Skype Me! > > "Knit the brows, and a strategem comes to mind." - Lo Kuan-chung, > Romance of the Three Kingdoms. > > "Poetry is a rival government always in opposition to its cruder > replicas." - William Carlos Williams > -- Alfred C. Snider aka Tuna Edwin Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont Huber House, 475 Main Street, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA Lawrence Debate Union http://debate.uvm.edu/debateblog/LDU/ Global Debate Blog http://globaldebateblog.blogspot.com Debate Central http://debate.uvm.edu 802-656-0097 office; 802-238-8345 mobile;802-656-4275 fax @asnider Twitter Please realize that I am often on the road with travels all over the world. I may not be able to respond to you immediately. See my calendar at http://debate.uvm.edu/tunacalendar.html