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Yes, that was an issue for us missing West Conn because of weather and travel danger.

Best 6 or 7 would solve that.

T


On 9/4/12 5:22 PM, Stephen Llano wrote:
[log in to unmask]" type="cite">I was actually thinking more about situations beyond the control of the team - such as weather and finances prohibiting travel to the "Big 6" tournaments. I'm pretty sure that the sweepstakes is not so important that someone would descend on some small tournament just to collect the points. 

But if folks think this is a big issue, perhaps we can just let the next largest one they went to in the Northeast serve as the tournament that replaces the one they couldn't afford to go to?

Llano

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Alfred C Snider <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Noted.

Any more comments on this? if there is a sense to cancel it, speak up now, because we seem to be headed towards a repeat with minor changes. If so, I will try and incorporate them and offer a new set of guidelines. Let me know if you would approve of Llano's idea.

For me, that idea would reward someone who went to a small tournament, a lot of teams came from one school, and they won everything.

T


On 9/3/12 10:16 AM, Stephen Llano wrote:
Actually that is a pretty good criticism Ruth brings up. I am not a numbers guy - so how would it hurt the sweepstakes to have each school count their 6 best performances at any Northeastern tournament? Would that be a mathematical nightmare to figure out, or would it not measure anything? It seems that having 6 of the same tournaments gives a good baseline, but then again we are dealing with debating statistics which can be made to look like anything. 

Llano

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Ruth Zisman <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Yeah, I see no harm in having the regional sweepstakes and if it helps to create goals from some students/programs then that is great.

As far as the criticism that Tuna mentioned about how the sweepstakes seem to always benefit larger/more established programs, it seems like part of the reason for this is that many of the smaller/newer programs are not able to attend all six of the tournaments that "count" for points. Whereas, all of the "bigger" programs are clearly attending all six of these tournaments in full force. In looking at the 2011-2012 sweeps chart, this is very evident. It seems that Grove City was only able to attend 3 of the "counting" tournaments, Cape Cod only 4, RIT 4, etc.

So if there was interest in trying to make the sweepstakes awards something more accessible for all types of programs (large and small in number and budget), you might consider changing the system to just count each program's best four or five tournaments out of the six that are deemed to "count" rather than counting all 6. In other words, I don't think it is the number of debaters that is hurting these smaller programs but the number of tournaments that they are able to attend.

This is just a thought and one interpretation of last year's numbers.



On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:18 AM, [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
I'm with Llano -- keep it going, please.

kj

Ken R. Johnson
Director of Forensics
English Department
University of Rochester

Office: 585-273-5223
Cell: 585-781-0040

Debate Blog: http://universityofrochesterdebate.wordpress.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Llano" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2012 11:47:51 PM
Subject: Re: NEUDC Sweepstakes Ideas

I like the NE sweeps simply because it motivates my newer students quite a bit, they dig it. And I think the corrections made a couple of years ago have worked well.


Llano


On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 7:46 PM, Alfred C Snider < [log in to unmask] > wrote:



Hi Ruth!

Not my arguments, but here are some I can think of:



    * Big programs will almost always win.
    * It does not benefit new schools for them to be at the bottom.
    * People may "game the system" by not attending smaller tournaments.
    * In general, hurt smaller and newer tournaments. But, helps top 6 tournaments.
    * Increases competition between schools instead of between people.
    * Now we have a world sweeps we do not need a regional one.

I am sure there are more. Not trying to advocate, just trying to share.

Tuna





On 9/2/12 7:19 PM, Ruth Zisman wrote:



For those of us who have not been following this discussion for very long, could you remind us what the "solid criticisms" are of the current system?

I do recall that there was a criticism of the old system because in allowing schools to count any/all worlds tournaments that they attended, this would of course highly favor schools with the capacity/finances to travel internationally, extensively, etc. But I do not recall the criticisms of the system as it is.





On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 6:57 PM, Alfred C Snider < [log in to unmask] > wrote:







Change it? Keep it the same? End it?



What do you think?



Do we want to end this sweepstakes? There have been solid criticisms. What say you? Discuss.
or
Shall we go ahead and do it again?



Changes, see the amended below. Or, we can go back to the original. Actually, we can do whatever we would like.



Would someone else like to count the sweepstakes points and put it online? That would be fine with me, in fact that sounds great as long as someone will do it correctly. To be quite honest, my math has been spotty at times, but close watchers have helped.


I am looking forward to debate in our region continuing to grow and improve in quality.



Tuna





2012-13 NEUDC SWEEPSTAKES PROPOSAL



BECOMING A PART OF THE SWEEPSTAKES:


• YOU SELF-IDENTIFY TO BE PART OF THE SWEEPSTAKES. THIS MEANS YOU SEND A REQUEST TO BE LISTED FOR THE YEAR.





TOURNAMENTS AND POINTS:


    *

MUST BE A WUDC FORMAT TOURNAMENT.
    *



CAN COUNT THE RESULTS FROM THE LARGEST SEVEN TOURNAMENTS IN THE NORTHEAST (NEW ENGLAND, NEW YORK, NEW JERSEY). THIS MAY INCLUDE USU IF IT IS HELD IN THE NORTHEAST. IT DOES COUNT YALE BUT NOT TOURNAMENTS IN CANADA. IF WORLDS IS HELD IN THE NORTHEAST IT WILL COUNT.


BEST FOUR TEAMS COUNT FOR SWEEPSTAKES.


• 1 ST =3 POINTS, 2 ND =2 POINTS, 3 RD =1 POINT, 4 TH =0 POINTS.


• COUNT THE LAST SIX ROUNDS.


• 6 FOR ADVANCING IN ELIMS.


• 10 FIRST PLACE, 7 SECOND PLACE.


• HOSTING TEAMS CAN DEBATE BUT NOT GET POINTS, UNLESS HOSTING USU NATIONALS OR THE NATIONAL NOVICE TOURNAMENT. IF A TEAM HOSTS A TOURNAMENT, THEY CAN COUNT THE NEXT BIGGEST TOURNAMENT SO EVERYONE GETS SIX TOURNAMENTS TO COUNT.


• COUNT TOURNAMENTS DURING THE ACADEMIC YEAR SEPT 1 UNTIL MAY 1.


• HYBRIDS CAN DEBATE BUT NOT GET POINTS.





AWARDS


• AWARDS GO TO THE TOP FIVE SCHOOLS


• THE NUMBER ONE SCHOOL HAS TO BUY THE AWARDS.


• AWARDS MUST BE ENGRAVED WITH SCHOOL NAMES.


• THE AWARDS FOR 1-5 MUST BE THE SAME SIZE.


• MUST BE DELIVERED BY OCTOBER 1 OF FOLLOWING YEAR OR AT FIRST REGIONAL TOURNAMENT.
--
Alfred C. Snider aka Tuna
Edwin Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont
Huber House, 475 Main Street, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA
Lawrence Debate Union http://debate.uvm.edu/debateblog/LDU/ Global Debate Blog http://globaldebateblog.blogspot.com Debate Central http://debate.uvm.edu 802-656-0097 office; 802-238-8345 mobile; 802-656-4275 fax
@asnider Twitter

NOTICE: I am traveling to promote debate this summer (Serbia, Slovenia, Cameroon, Romania) and I will have Internet access of uncertain frequency and quality. Please be patient with me.



--
Alfred C. Snider aka Tuna
Edwin Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont
Huber House, 475 Main Street, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA
Lawrence Debate Union http://debate.uvm.edu/debateblog/LDU/ Global Debate Blog http://globaldebateblog.blogspot.com Debate Central http://debate.uvm.edu 802-656-0097 office; 802-238-8345 mobile; 802-656-4275 fax
@asnider Twitter

Please realize that I am often on the road with travels all over the world. I may not be able to respond to you immediately. See my calendar at http://debate.uvm.edu/tunacalendar.html



--
_____
Stephen Llano, Ph.D.
Director of Debate and Assistant Professor, Department of Rhetoric, Communication & Theater
St. John’s University
Queens, NY
718-990-5606(voice) 718-990-2435 (fax)
callto://stevellano -- Skype Me!

"Knit the brows, and a strategem comes to mind." - Lo Kuan-chung, Romance of the Three Kingdoms.

"Poetry is a rival government always in opposition to its cruder replicas." - William Carlos Williams




--
_____
Stephen Llano, Ph.D.
Director of Debate and Assistant Professor, Department of Rhetoric, Communication & Theater
St. John’s University
Queens, NY
718-990-5606(voice) 718-990-2435 (fax)
callto://stevellano -- Skype Me!

"Knit the brows, and a strategem comes to mind." - Lo Kuan-chung, Romance of the Three Kingdoms.

"Poetry is a rival government always in opposition to its cruder replicas." - William Carlos Williams



-- 
Alfred C. Snider aka Tuna
Edwin Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont
Huber House, 475 Main Street, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA
Lawrence Debate Union http://debate.uvm.edu/debateblog/LDU/ 
Global Debate Blog http://globaldebateblog.blogspot.com 
Debate Central http://debate.uvm.edu
802-656-0097 office; 802-238-8345 mobile;802-656-4275 fax
@asnider Twitter

Please realize that I am often on the road with travels all over the world. I may not be able to respond to you immediately. See my calendar at
http://debate.uvm.edu/tunacalendar.html 



--
_____
Stephen Llano, Ph.D.
Director of Debate and Assistant Professor, Department of Rhetoric, Communication & Theater
St. John’s University
Queens, NY
718-990-5606(voice) 718-990-2435 (fax)
callto://stevellano -- Skype Me!

"Knit the brows, and a strategem comes to mind." - Lo Kuan-chung, Romance of the Three Kingdoms.

"Poetry is a rival government always in opposition to its cruder replicas." - William Carlos Williams



-- 
Alfred C. Snider aka Tuna
Edwin Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont
Huber House, 475 Main Street, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA
Lawrence Debate Union http://debate.uvm.edu/debateblog/LDU/ 
Global Debate Blog http://globaldebateblog.blogspot.com 
Debate Central http://debate.uvm.edu
802-656-0097 office; 802-238-8345 mobile;802-656-4275 fax
@asnider Twitter

Please realize that I am often on the road with travels all over the world. I may not be able to respond to you immediately. See my calendar at
http://debate.uvm.edu/tunacalendar.html