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I am down with Ruth's suggestion, sounds like a good idea On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 5:34 PM, Alfred C Snider <[log in to unmask]>wrote: > Yes, that was an issue for us missing West Conn because of weather and > travel danger. > > Best 6 or 7 would solve that. > > T > > > > On 9/4/12 5:22 PM, Stephen Llano wrote: > > I was actually thinking more about situations beyond the control of the > team - such as weather and finances prohibiting travel to the "Big 6" > tournaments. I'm pretty sure that the sweepstakes is not so important that > someone would descend on some small tournament just to collect the points. > > But if folks think this is a big issue, perhaps we can just let the next > largest one they went to in the Northeast serve as the tournament that > replaces the one they couldn't afford to go to? > > Llano > > On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Alfred C Snider <[log in to unmask]>wrote: > >> Noted. >> >> Any more comments on this? if there is a sense to cancel it, speak up >> now, because we seem to be headed towards a repeat with minor changes. If >> so, I will try and incorporate them and offer a new set of guidelines. Let >> me know if you would approve of Llano's idea. >> >> For me, that idea would reward someone who went to a small tournament, a >> lot of teams came from one school, and they won everything. >> >> T >> >> >> On 9/3/12 10:16 AM, Stephen Llano wrote: >> >> Actually that is a pretty good criticism Ruth brings up. I am not a >> numbers guy - so how would it hurt the sweepstakes to have each school >> count their 6 best performances at any Northeastern tournament? Would that >> be a mathematical nightmare to figure out, or would it not measure >> anything? It seems that having 6 of the same tournaments gives a good >> baseline, but then again we are dealing with debating statistics which can >> be made to look like anything. >> >> Llano >> >> On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Ruth Zisman <[log in to unmask]>wrote: >> >>> Yeah, I see no harm in having the regional sweepstakes and if it helps >>> to create goals from some students/programs then that is great. >>> >>> As far as the criticism that Tuna mentioned about how the sweepstakes >>> seem to always benefit larger/more established programs, it seems like part >>> of the reason for this is that many of the smaller/newer programs are not >>> able to attend all six of the tournaments that "count" for points. Whereas, >>> all of the "bigger" programs are clearly attending all six of these >>> tournaments in full force. In looking at the 2011-2012 sweeps chart, this >>> is very evident. It seems that Grove City was only able to attend 3 of the >>> "counting" tournaments, Cape Cod only 4, RIT 4, etc. >>> >>> So if there was interest in trying to make the sweepstakes awards >>> something more accessible for all types of programs (large and small in >>> number and budget), you might consider changing the system to just count >>> each program's best four or five tournaments out of the six that are deemed >>> to "count" rather than counting all 6. In other words, I don't think it is >>> the number of debaters that is hurting these smaller programs but the >>> number of tournaments that they are able to attend. >>> >>> This is just a thought and one interpretation of last year's numbers. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:18 AM, [log in to unmask] < >>> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >>> >>>> I'm with Llano -- keep it going, please. >>>> >>>> kj >>>> >>>> Ken R. Johnson >>>> Director of Forensics >>>> English Department >>>> University of Rochester >>>> >>>> Office: 585-273-5223 >>>> Cell: 585-781-0040 >>>> >>>> Debate Blog: http://universityofrochesterdebate.wordpress.com >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Stephen Llano" <[log in to unmask]> >>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>> Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2012 11:47:51 PM >>>> Subject: Re: NEUDC Sweepstakes Ideas >>>> >>>> I like the NE sweeps simply because it motivates my newer students >>>> quite a bit, they dig it. And I think the corrections made a couple of >>>> years ago have worked well. >>>> >>>> >>>> Llano >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 7:46 PM, Alfred C Snider < [log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Ruth! >>>> >>>> Not my arguments, but here are some I can think of: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> * Big programs will almost always win. >>>> * It does not benefit new schools for them to be at the bottom. >>>> * People may "game the system" by not attending smaller tournaments. >>>> * In general, hurt smaller and newer tournaments. But, helps top 6 >>>> tournaments. >>>> * Increases competition between schools instead of between people. >>>> * Now we have a world sweeps we do not need a regional one. >>>> >>>> I am sure there are more. Not trying to advocate, just trying to share. >>>> >>>> Tuna >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 9/2/12 7:19 PM, Ruth Zisman wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> For those of us who have not been following this discussion for very >>>> long, could you remind us what the "solid criticisms" are of the current >>>> system? >>>> >>>> I do recall that there was a criticism of the old system because in >>>> allowing schools to count any/all worlds tournaments that they attended, >>>> this would of course highly favor schools with the capacity/finances to >>>> travel internationally, extensively, etc. But I do not recall the >>>> criticisms of the system as it is. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 6:57 PM, Alfred C Snider < [log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Change it? Keep it the same? End it? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What do you think? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Do we want to end this sweepstakes? There have been solid criticisms. >>>> What say you? Discuss. >>>> or >>>> Shall we go ahead and do it again? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Changes, see the amended below. Or, we can go back to the original. >>>> Actually, we can do whatever we would like. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Would someone else like to count the sweepstakes points and put it >>>> online? That would be fine with me, in fact that sounds great as long as >>>> someone will do it correctly. To be quite honest, my math has been spotty >>>> at times, but close watchers have helped. >>>> >>>> >>>> I am looking forward to debate in our region continuing to grow and >>>> improve in quality. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tuna >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2012-13 NEUDC SWEEPSTAKES PROPOSAL >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> BECOMING A PART OF THE SWEEPSTAKES: >>>> >>>> >>>> • YOU SELF-IDENTIFY TO BE PART OF THE SWEEPSTAKES. THIS MEANS YOU SEND >>>> A REQUEST TO BE LISTED FOR THE YEAR. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> TOURNAMENTS AND POINTS: >>>> >>>> >>>> * >>>> >>>> MUST BE A WUDC FORMAT TOURNAMENT. >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CAN COUNT THE RESULTS FROM THE LARGEST SEVEN TOURNAMENTS IN THE >>>> NORTHEAST (NEW ENGLAND, NEW YORK, NEW JERSEY). THIS MAY INCLUDE USU IF IT >>>> IS HELD IN THE NORTHEAST. IT DOES COUNT YALE BUT NOT TOURNAMENTS IN CANADA. >>>> IF WORLDS IS HELD IN THE NORTHEAST IT WILL COUNT. >>>> >>>> >>>> BEST FOUR TEAMS COUNT FOR SWEEPSTAKES. >>>> >>>> >>>> • 1 ST =3 POINTS, 2 ND =2 POINTS, 3 RD =1 POINT, 4 TH =0 POINTS. >>>> >>>> >>>> • COUNT THE LAST SIX ROUNDS. >>>> >>>> >>>> • 6 FOR ADVANCING IN ELIMS. >>>> >>>> >>>> • 10 FIRST PLACE, 7 SECOND PLACE. >>>> >>>> >>>> • HOSTING TEAMS CAN DEBATE BUT NOT GET POINTS, UNLESS HOSTING USU >>>> NATIONALS OR THE NATIONAL NOVICE TOURNAMENT. IF A TEAM HOSTS A TOURNAMENT, >>>> THEY CAN COUNT THE NEXT BIGGEST TOURNAMENT SO EVERYONE GETS SIX TOURNAMENTS >>>> TO COUNT. >>>> >>>> >>>> • COUNT TOURNAMENTS DURING THE ACADEMIC YEAR SEPT 1 UNTIL MAY 1. >>>> >>>> >>>> • HYBRIDS CAN DEBATE BUT NOT GET POINTS. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> AWARDS >>>> >>>> >>>> • AWARDS GO TO THE TOP FIVE SCHOOLS >>>> >>>> >>>> • THE NUMBER ONE SCHOOL HAS TO BUY THE AWARDS. >>>> >>>> >>>> • AWARDS MUST BE ENGRAVED WITH SCHOOL NAMES. >>>> >>>> >>>> • THE AWARDS FOR 1-5 MUST BE THE SAME SIZE. >>>> >>>> >>>> • MUST BE DELIVERED BY OCTOBER 1 OF FOLLOWING YEAR OR AT FIRST REGIONAL >>>> TOURNAMENT. >>>> -- >>>> Alfred C. Snider aka Tuna >>>> Edwin Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont >>>> Huber House, 475 Main Street, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA >>>> Lawrence Debate Union http://debate.uvm.edu/debateblog/LDU/ Global >>>> Debate Blog http://globaldebateblog.blogspot.com Debate Central >>>> http://debate.uvm.edu 802-656-0097 office; 802-238-8345 mobile; >>>> 802-656-4275 fax >>>> @asnider Twitter >>>> >>>> NOTICE: I am traveling to promote debate this summer (Serbia, Slovenia, >>>> Cameroon, Romania) and I will have Internet access of uncertain frequency >>>> and quality. Please be patient with me. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Alfred C. Snider aka Tuna >>>> Edwin Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont >>>> Huber House, 475 Main Street, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA >>>> Lawrence Debate Union http://debate.uvm.edu/debateblog/LDU/ Global >>>> Debate Blog http://globaldebateblog.blogspot.com Debate Central >>>> http://debate.uvm.edu 802-656-0097 office; 802-238-8345 mobile; >>>> 802-656-4275 fax >>>> @asnider Twitter >>>> >>>> Please realize that I am often on the road with travels all over the >>>> world. I may not be able to respond to you immediately. See my calendar at >>>> http://debate.uvm.edu/tunacalendar.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> _____ >>>> Stephen Llano, Ph.D. >>>> Director of Debate and Assistant Professor, Department of Rhetoric, >>>> Communication & Theater >>>> St. John’s University >>>> Queens, NY >>>> 718-990-5606(voice) 718-990-2435 (fax) >>>> callto://stevellano -- Skype Me! >>>> >>>> "Knit the brows, and a strategem comes to mind." - Lo Kuan-chung, >>>> Romance of the Three Kingdoms. >>>> >>>> "Poetry is a rival government always in opposition to its cruder >>>> replicas." - William Carlos Williams >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> _____ >> Stephen Llano, Ph.D. >> Director of Debate and Assistant Professor, Department of Rhetoric, >> Communication & Theater >> St. John’s University >> Queens, NY >> 718-990-5606(voice) 718-990-2435 (fax) >> callto://stevellano -- Skype Me! >> >> "Knit the brows, and a strategem comes to mind." - Lo Kuan-chung, Romance >> of the Three Kingdoms. >> >> "Poetry is a rival government always in opposition to its cruder >> replicas." - William Carlos Williams >> >> >> -- >> Alfred C. Snider aka Tuna >> Edwin Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont >> Huber House, 475 Main Street, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA >> Lawrence Debate Union http://debate.uvm.edu/debateblog/LDU/ >> Global Debate Blog http://globaldebateblog.blogspot.com >> Debate Central http://debate.uvm.edu802-656-0097 office; 802-238-8345 mobile;802-656-4275 fax >> @asnider Twitter >> >> Please realize that I am often on the road with travels all over the world. I may not be able to respond to you immediately. See my calendar athttp://debate.uvm.edu/tunacalendar.html >> >> > > > -- > _____ > Stephen Llano, Ph.D. > Director of Debate and Assistant Professor, Department of Rhetoric, > Communication & Theater > St. John’s University > Queens, NY > 718-990-5606(voice) 718-990-2435 (fax) > callto://stevellano -- Skype Me! > > "Knit the brows, and a strategem comes to mind." - Lo Kuan-chung, Romance > of the Three Kingdoms. > > "Poetry is a rival government always in opposition to its cruder > replicas." - William Carlos Williams > > > -- > Alfred C. Snider aka Tuna > Edwin Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont > Huber House, 475 Main Street, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA > Lawrence Debate Union http://debate.uvm.edu/debateblog/LDU/ > Global Debate Blog http://globaldebateblog.blogspot.com > Debate Central http://debate.uvm.edu802-656-0097 office; 802-238-8345 mobile;802-656-4275 fax > @asnider Twitter > > Please realize that I am often on the road with travels all over the world. I may not be able to respond to you immediately. See my calendar athttp://debate.uvm.edu/tunacalendar.html > > -- _____ Stephen Llano, Ph.D. Director of Debate and Assistant Professor, Department of Rhetoric, Communication & Theater St. John’s University Queens, NY 718-990-5606(voice) 718-990-2435 (fax) callto://stevellano -- Skype Me! "Knit the brows, and a strategem comes to mind." - Lo Kuan-chung, Romance of the Three Kingdoms. "Poetry is a rival government always in opposition to its cruder replicas." - William Carlos Williams