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I am down with Ruth's suggestion, sounds like a good idea

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 5:34 PM, Alfred C Snider <[log in to unmask]>wrote:

>  Yes, that was an issue for us missing West Conn because of weather and
> travel danger.
>
> Best 6 or 7 would solve that.
>
> T
>
>
>
> On 9/4/12 5:22 PM, Stephen Llano wrote:
>
> I was actually thinking more about situations beyond the control of the
> team - such as weather and finances prohibiting travel to the "Big 6"
> tournaments. I'm pretty sure that the sweepstakes is not so important that
> someone would descend on some small tournament just to collect the points.
>
> But if folks think this is a big issue, perhaps we can just let the next
> largest one they went to in the Northeast serve as the tournament that
> replaces the one they couldn't afford to go to?
>
>  Llano
>
> On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 5:18 PM, Alfred C Snider <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>
>>  Noted.
>>
>> Any more comments on this? if there is a sense to cancel it, speak up
>> now, because we seem to be headed towards a repeat with minor changes. If
>> so, I will try and incorporate them and offer a new set of guidelines. Let
>> me know if you would approve of Llano's idea.
>>
>> For me, that idea would reward someone who went to a small tournament, a
>> lot of teams came from one school, and they won everything.
>>
>> T
>>
>>
>> On 9/3/12 10:16 AM, Stephen Llano wrote:
>>
>> Actually that is a pretty good criticism Ruth brings up. I am not a
>> numbers guy - so how would it hurt the sweepstakes to have each school
>> count their 6 best performances at any Northeastern tournament? Would that
>> be a mathematical nightmare to figure out, or would it not measure
>> anything? It seems that having 6 of the same tournaments gives a good
>> baseline, but then again we are dealing with debating statistics which can
>> be made to look like anything.
>>
>>  Llano
>>
>>  On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Ruth Zisman <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, I see no harm in having the regional sweepstakes and if it helps
>>> to create goals from some students/programs then that is great.
>>>
>>> As far as the criticism that Tuna mentioned about how the sweepstakes
>>> seem to always benefit larger/more established programs, it seems like part
>>> of the reason for this is that many of the smaller/newer programs are not
>>> able to attend all six of the tournaments that "count" for points. Whereas,
>>> all of the "bigger" programs are clearly attending all six of these
>>> tournaments in full force. In looking at the 2011-2012 sweeps chart, this
>>> is very evident. It seems that Grove City was only able to attend 3 of the
>>> "counting" tournaments, Cape Cod only 4, RIT 4, etc.
>>>
>>> So if there was interest in trying to make the sweepstakes awards
>>> something more accessible for all types of programs (large and small in
>>> number and budget), you might consider changing the system to just count
>>> each program's best four or five tournaments out of the six that are deemed
>>> to "count" rather than counting all 6. In other words, I don't think it is
>>> the number of debaters that is hurting these smaller programs but the
>>> number of tournaments that they are able to attend.
>>>
>>> This is just a thought and one interpretation of last year's numbers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 9:18 AM, [log in to unmask] <
>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm with Llano -- keep it going, please.
>>>>
>>>> kj
>>>>
>>>> Ken R. Johnson
>>>> Director of Forensics
>>>> English Department
>>>> University of Rochester
>>>>
>>>> Office: 585-273-5223
>>>> Cell: 585-781-0040
>>>>
>>>> Debate Blog: http://universityofrochesterdebate.wordpress.com
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Stephen Llano" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2012 11:47:51 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: NEUDC Sweepstakes Ideas
>>>>
>>>> I like the NE sweeps simply because it motivates my newer students
>>>> quite a bit, they dig it. And I think the corrections made a couple of
>>>> years ago have worked well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Llano
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 7:46 PM, Alfred C Snider < [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Ruth!
>>>>
>>>> Not my arguments, but here are some I can think of:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      * Big programs will almost always win.
>>>>     * It does not benefit new schools for them to be at the bottom.
>>>>     * People may "game the system" by not attending smaller tournaments.
>>>>     * In general, hurt smaller and newer tournaments. But, helps top 6
>>>> tournaments.
>>>>     * Increases competition between schools instead of between people.
>>>>     * Now we have a world sweeps we do not need a regional one.
>>>>
>>>> I am sure there are more. Not trying to advocate, just trying to share.
>>>>
>>>> Tuna
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9/2/12 7:19 PM, Ruth Zisman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For those of us who have not been following this discussion for very
>>>> long, could you remind us what the "solid criticisms" are of the current
>>>> system?
>>>>
>>>> I do recall that there was a criticism of the old system because in
>>>> allowing schools to count any/all worlds tournaments that they attended,
>>>> this would of course highly favor schools with the capacity/finances to
>>>> travel internationally, extensively, etc. But I do not recall the
>>>> criticisms of the system as it is.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 6:57 PM, Alfred C Snider < [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Change it? Keep it the same? End it?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What do you think?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do we want to end this sweepstakes? There have been solid criticisms.
>>>> What say you? Discuss.
>>>> or
>>>> Shall we go ahead and do it again?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Changes, see the amended below. Or, we can go back to the original.
>>>> Actually, we can do whatever we would like.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Would someone else like to count the sweepstakes points and put it
>>>> online? That would be fine with me, in fact that sounds great as long as
>>>> someone will do it correctly. To be quite honest, my math has been spotty
>>>> at times, but close watchers have helped.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am looking forward to debate in our region continuing to grow and
>>>> improve in quality.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tuna
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2012-13 NEUDC SWEEPSTAKES PROPOSAL
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> BECOMING A PART OF THE SWEEPSTAKES:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> • YOU SELF-IDENTIFY TO BE PART OF THE SWEEPSTAKES. THIS MEANS YOU SEND
>>>> A REQUEST TO BE LISTED FOR THE YEAR.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> TOURNAMENTS AND POINTS:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      *
>>>>
>>>> MUST BE A WUDC FORMAT TOURNAMENT.
>>>>      *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CAN COUNT THE RESULTS FROM THE LARGEST SEVEN TOURNAMENTS IN THE
>>>> NORTHEAST (NEW ENGLAND, NEW YORK, NEW JERSEY). THIS MAY INCLUDE USU IF IT
>>>> IS HELD IN THE NORTHEAST. IT DOES COUNT YALE BUT NOT TOURNAMENTS IN CANADA.
>>>> IF WORLDS IS HELD IN THE NORTHEAST IT WILL COUNT.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> BEST FOUR TEAMS COUNT FOR SWEEPSTAKES.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  • 1 ST =3 POINTS, 2 ND =2 POINTS, 3 RD =1 POINT, 4 TH =0 POINTS.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> • COUNT THE LAST SIX ROUNDS.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> • 6 FOR ADVANCING IN ELIMS.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> • 10 FIRST PLACE, 7 SECOND PLACE.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> • HOSTING TEAMS CAN DEBATE BUT NOT GET POINTS, UNLESS HOSTING USU
>>>> NATIONALS OR THE NATIONAL NOVICE TOURNAMENT. IF A TEAM HOSTS A TOURNAMENT,
>>>> THEY CAN COUNT THE NEXT BIGGEST TOURNAMENT SO EVERYONE GETS SIX TOURNAMENTS
>>>> TO COUNT.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> • COUNT TOURNAMENTS DURING THE ACADEMIC YEAR SEPT 1 UNTIL MAY 1.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> • HYBRIDS CAN DEBATE BUT NOT GET POINTS.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> AWARDS
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> • AWARDS GO TO THE TOP FIVE SCHOOLS
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> • THE NUMBER ONE SCHOOL HAS TO BUY THE AWARDS.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> • AWARDS MUST BE ENGRAVED WITH SCHOOL NAMES.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> • THE AWARDS FOR 1-5 MUST BE THE SAME SIZE.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> • MUST BE DELIVERED BY OCTOBER 1 OF FOLLOWING YEAR OR AT FIRST REGIONAL
>>>> TOURNAMENT.
>>>> --
>>>> Alfred C. Snider aka Tuna
>>>> Edwin Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont
>>>> Huber House, 475 Main Street, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA
>>>> Lawrence Debate Union http://debate.uvm.edu/debateblog/LDU/ Global
>>>> Debate Blog http://globaldebateblog.blogspot.com Debate Central
>>>> http://debate.uvm.edu 802-656-0097 office; 802-238-8345 mobile;
>>>> 802-656-4275 fax
>>>> @asnider Twitter
>>>>
>>>> NOTICE: I am traveling to promote debate this summer (Serbia, Slovenia,
>>>> Cameroon, Romania) and I will have Internet access of uncertain frequency
>>>> and quality. Please be patient with me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Alfred C. Snider aka Tuna
>>>> Edwin Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont
>>>> Huber House, 475 Main Street, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA
>>>> Lawrence Debate Union http://debate.uvm.edu/debateblog/LDU/ Global
>>>> Debate Blog http://globaldebateblog.blogspot.com Debate Central
>>>> http://debate.uvm.edu 802-656-0097 office; 802-238-8345 mobile;
>>>> 802-656-4275 fax
>>>> @asnider Twitter
>>>>
>>>> Please realize that I am often on the road with travels all over the
>>>> world. I may not be able to respond to you immediately. See my calendar at
>>>> http://debate.uvm.edu/tunacalendar.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> _____
>>>> Stephen Llano, Ph.D.
>>>> Director of Debate and Assistant Professor, Department of Rhetoric,
>>>> Communication & Theater
>>>> St. John’s University
>>>> Queens, NY
>>>> 718-990-5606(voice) 718-990-2435 (fax)
>>>> callto://stevellano -- Skype Me!
>>>>
>>>> "Knit the brows, and a strategem comes to mind." - Lo Kuan-chung,
>>>> Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
>>>>
>>>> "Poetry is a rival government always in opposition to its cruder
>>>> replicas." - William Carlos Williams
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>> _____
>> Stephen Llano, Ph.D.
>> Director of Debate and Assistant Professor, Department of Rhetoric,
>> Communication & Theater
>> St. John’s University
>> Queens, NY
>> 718-990-5606(voice) 718-990-2435 (fax)
>> callto://stevellano -- Skype Me!
>>
>> "Knit the brows, and a strategem comes to mind." - Lo Kuan-chung, Romance
>> of the Three Kingdoms.
>>
>> "Poetry is a rival government always in opposition to its cruder
>> replicas." - William Carlos Williams
>>
>>
>> --
>> Alfred C. Snider aka Tuna
>> Edwin Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont
>> Huber House, 475 Main Street, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA
>> Lawrence Debate Union http://debate.uvm.edu/debateblog/LDU/
>> Global Debate Blog http://globaldebateblog.blogspot.com
>> Debate Central http://debate.uvm.edu802-656-0097 office; 802-238-8345 mobile;802-656-4275 fax
>> @asnider Twitter
>>
>> Please realize that I am often on the road with travels all over the world. I may not be able to respond to you immediately. See my calendar athttp://debate.uvm.edu/tunacalendar.html
>>
>>
>
>
>  --
> _____
> Stephen Llano, Ph.D.
> Director of Debate and Assistant Professor, Department of Rhetoric,
> Communication & Theater
> St. John’s University
> Queens, NY
> 718-990-5606(voice) 718-990-2435 (fax)
> callto://stevellano -- Skype Me!
>
> "Knit the brows, and a strategem comes to mind." - Lo Kuan-chung, Romance
> of the Three Kingdoms.
>
> "Poetry is a rival government always in opposition to its cruder
> replicas." - William Carlos Williams
>
>
> --
> Alfred C. Snider aka Tuna
> Edwin Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont
> Huber House, 475 Main Street, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405 USA
> Lawrence Debate Union http://debate.uvm.edu/debateblog/LDU/
> Global Debate Blog http://globaldebateblog.blogspot.com
> Debate Central http://debate.uvm.edu802-656-0097 office; 802-238-8345 mobile;802-656-4275 fax
> @asnider Twitter
>
> Please realize that I am often on the road with travels all over the world. I may not be able to respond to you immediately. See my calendar athttp://debate.uvm.edu/tunacalendar.html
>
>


-- 
_____
Stephen Llano, Ph.D.
Director of Debate and Assistant Professor, Department of Rhetoric,
Communication & Theater
St. John’s University
Queens, NY
718-990-5606(voice) 718-990-2435 (fax)
callto://stevellano -- Skype Me!

"Knit the brows, and a strategem comes to mind." - Lo Kuan-chung, Romance
of the Three Kingdoms.

"Poetry is a rival government always in opposition to its cruder replicas."
- William Carlos Williams