Print

Print


IMO, ListServ is cumbersome and slow with a high noise to signal ratio. Of course it has valuable information, and capable, intelligent participants. But it should not be immune to criticism (and by that, I mean the format of Listserv, not MedLib specifically) or improvement. 

Eleanor Truex BSN, MLIS
Medical Librarian, Lakefront Region 

Presence 
Saint Francis Hospital
355 Ridge Avenue | Evanston, IL 60202
Office: 847.316.2460 

Presence 
Saint Joseph Hospital
2900 North Lake Shore Drive | Chicago, IL 06057
Office: 773.665.3038 

[log in to unmask]
www.presencehealth.org



-----Original Message-----
From: David P. Dillard [mailto:[log in to unmask]] 
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 12:43 PM
To: Truex, Eleanor
Cc: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: CHAT: re summary of list serv archive access



Quoting my own message:

"Finally, one is best served if one uses a variety of media and gets the needed benefits of each.  Groups serve quite a few valuable purposes and are still a very active and heavily used set of media networks."

I do not recommend giving up Listserv, but I strongly believe in multiple archives for content.  Something goes wrong with A, you have B,C and D.
I am aware of discussion groups that have been archived in more than one place. In such cases moderators can repost messages to the other archives and membership can be on more than one list, each member decides what interface suits them best.  What each group does depends on what they are trying to achieve and what works best for them.  Personally, I cannot be bothered visiting a message board and interrupting my work flow to comment on a message I receive or receive notice of on a web based discussion group, and I have lots of company on that one, as for example, the active lists on H-Net all but died the day they switched from email lists to message board operations.  One has to really love meeting announcements and CFPs to be on those lists now and the message volume on EDTECH is less in a month now than it was in one active day before the change.

List owners can make changes, but they had better be aware of the consequences before the change as once you lose your activity, it is very hard to get any of it back, I have seen this on a number of lists.  It is also smart to back up list content in case something happens to the main list.  Mediev-L was on an antiquated Listserv server in the Midwest and at some point that server went south and the entire content of that list to that point was lost.  I would hate to see this happen to any list as valuable as this one.  Members of this list do not ask how to search this list's archives from time to time because all of the content on this list is not worth seeing.  Quite the opposite, there is a great deal of very important information shared on this list and it needs to be protected.


Sincerely,
David Dillard
Temple University
(215) 204 - 4584
[log in to unmask]
http://workface.com/e/daviddillard

Net-Gold
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/net-gold
http://listserv.temple.edu/archives/net-gold.html
https://groups.io/org/groupsio/Net-Gold/archives
http://net-gold.3172864.n2.nabble.com/

Research Guides
http://tinyurl.com/qy3gq6g
AND
https://sites.google.com/site/researchguidesonsites/


RESEARCH PAPER WRITING
http://guides.temple.edu/research-papers
EMPLOYMENT
http://guides.temple.edu/employment-guide
INTERNSHIPS
http://guides.temple.edu/employment-internships

PUBLIC HEALTH RESOURCES INCLUDING EBOLA
http://guides.temple.edu/public-health-guide

Blog
https://educatorgold.wordpress.com/

Articles by David Dillard
https://sites.google.com/site/daviddillardsarticles/

SPORT-MED
https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/sport-med.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sports-med/
http://listserv.temple.edu/archives/sport-med.html



On Fri, 7 Aug 2015, Truex, Eleanor wrote:

> So contemplating and discussing other viable ways to communicate to other medical librarians shouldn't be attempted?
>
> Eleanor Truex BSN, MLIS
> Medical Librarian, Lakefront Region
>
> Presence
> Saint Francis Hospital
> 355 Ridge Avenue | Evanston, IL 60202
> Office: 847.316.2460
>
> Presence
> Saint Joseph Hospital
> 2900 North Lake Shore Drive | Chicago, IL 06057
> Office: 773.665.3038
>
> [log in to unmask]
> www.presencehealth.org
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David P. Dillard [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 11:43 AM
> To: Truex, Eleanor
> Cc: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: CHAT: re summary of list serv archive access
>
>
>
> A few comments in regard to the post below.  In addition to an outlook folder, one may want to consider using their Gmail for this purpose or peradventure one does not have a gmail account, consider creating one.
> Gmail has Google search for the content in ones email database and while Google is not OVID or Ebsco in search capability, its email search engine regularly finds content I have stored that I am looking for.  It is also on the cloud so I can use the accoount anywhere after carefully wringing the post to get the excess water out from that damp cloud.
>
> Listserv.  Most colleges and universities, the United States Government and some businesses and organizations use this list mail service.  It has a decent search tool, though a bit limited for broad highly posted search statements in a list archives.  If a list is public, it is also well indexed by Google and given substantial priority in Google searches that find its records, behind sources on places like Google Sites and Libguides.  Hence one does not need to rely on the site search engine for searching the content a public Listserv group exclusively. Academic Listserv servers are often run by college computer services or information technology departments so that there are folks to go to that will help.
>
> If something goes wrong on Google Groups or on Yahoo Groups, I wish the list owner the best of luck in getting any help from these organizations at all.  List services like Nabble and Freelists are good and well indexed by Google, but they can be a bit tricky to operate at times.
>
> But then there is Groups.IO.  It is run by Mark Fletcher, a former Yahoo Groups employee I believe.  He is in almost daily contact with the list owners on a couple of Groups.IO lists that he runs for this purpose.
> Groups.IO is constantly improving and has an extremely easy interface to work with.
>
> If one believes that having email lists themselves is antiquated, I have seen articles that argue the exact opposite and I will share the comments made a while ago on the Mediev-L list in such a discussion:
>
> "Medieval history is not the only yardstick with which email discussion groups should be measured in terms of activity or vitality, nor are the products on Listserv servers.  There are, however, many Listserv lists that are very active and involved in major back and forth discussions such as the TRINET list on the University of Hawaii Listserv server in the field of tourism and hospitality and the Sportpsy list on the Temple University server.  MEDLIB-L is also another example.
>
> Yahoo Groups has thousands of active and important lists, depending on ones interests.  There are also Google Groups, MailLists, Nabble, and GroupsIO to name a few.
>
> Listserv in its current version has features that may not be used by members of this list, here is an off topic example.
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/mfok9yv
>
>
> On the other hand, the H-Net had a number of very active and 
> interactive group of discussion groups that were email lists.  They 
> moved to a web board version with lots more features and the EDTECH 
> list instantly became a sparse series of CFPs and conference 
> announcements and instructional posts on how to use the new website 
> and nothing more.  I confined the BIOMECH list to my spam folder after 
> they went from email to website.
>
> If a list becomes inactive, it means the members of that list and the 
> owner are not contributing content, not that the world of email 
> discussion groups is dying.  There is actually growth in the world of 
> email discussion groups and benefits in these denied to Facebook, 
> Linkedin and so forth, such as detailed Google indexing of content of 
> posts for public lists.
>
>
> "groups.yahoo.com" OR "groups.google.com"
>
> http://tinyurl.com/kz47yau
>
> About 9,760,000 results (0.24 seconds)
>
> Finally, one is best served if one uses a variety of media and gets 
> the needed benefits of each.  Groups serve quite a few valuable 
> purposes and are still a very active and heavily used set of media networks."
>
>
> =======================================
>
>
> Now regarding the visibility of content shared on publically archived 
> academic Listservs, consider this search result.
>
> obesity AND ("physical exercise" OR "physical fitness") AND "net-gold" 
> AND "temple.edu"
>
>
> Google Web Search
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ouvaqox
>
>
> Nine of the first ten of these search results, with so called "omitted 
> search results included"  are Listserv links and they are mostly 
> around the top of the search results.  If you want your content to be 
> findable outside of your walls and you are at an institution that 
> provides access to lists on a Listserv server, your Listserv groups 
> will be an important part of your search engine optimization of the 
> content you share.  Also, Listserv in the past few years was upgraded 
> and improved, so it does work better than it did in the past.  
> Twenty-six of the first thirty hits are Listserv and Groups.IO has 
> three of the remaining four.  The search is picking up temple.edu from 
> the content of my posts such as my email address and this content is 
> in my other lists that are not on the Listserv server. Listserv is a powerful tool and anything but out of date.
>
>
> .
>
> .
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
> David Dillard
> Temple University
> (215) 204 - 4584
> [log in to unmask]
> http://workface.com/e/daviddillard
>
> Net-Gold
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/net-gold
> http://listserv.temple.edu/archives/net-gold.html
> https://groups.io/org/groupsio/Net-Gold/archives
> http://net-gold.3172864.n2.nabble.com/
>
> Research Guides
> http://tinyurl.com/qy3gq6g
> AND
> https://sites.google.com/site/researchguidesonsites/
>
>
> RESEARCH PAPER WRITING
> http://guides.temple.edu/research-papers
> EMPLOYMENT
> http://guides.temple.edu/employment-guide
> INTERNSHIPS
> http://guides.temple.edu/employment-internships
> HOSPITALITY
> http://guides.temple.edu/hospitality-guide
> DISABILITIES AND EMPLOYMENT
> http://guides.temple.edu/c.php?g=134557
> Nina Dillard's Photographs on Net-Gold 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/neemers/
>
> SPORT-MED
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/sport-med.html
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sports-med/
> http://listserv.temple.edu/archives/sport-med.html
>
>
>
> On Fri, 7 Aug 2015, Truex, Eleanor wrote:
>
>> Massive props to Valerie Rankow, for putting the instructions into step-by-step processes, in everyday language, and engaging the reader to boot. I'm probably in the minority in this, but honestly, after reading all the steps,  I would think one would need an urgent--as in emergency situation of some obscure kind which taxes my imagination on a hot Friday in Chicago--to want to subject oneself to this process.
>>
>> I think I'm going to continue to do what I've been doing, which is saving threads which pertain to my needs in an Outlook folder.
>> I know I'll never blithely suggest anyone "search the archives" again. Good heavens!
>>
>> Also, does anyone else find it dismaying that we who are supposed to be information specialists rely (for our own intra-professional communication) on an archaic, cumbersome process? Maybe it's because I wasn't a librarian when ListServ started or even when the internet started, but it's like a Model A Ford vs any modern car to operate; a simple vBulletin message board is the Concorde in comparison (I ran out of auto analogies). And it's continued use does not signify it's a quality or even an appropriate product, as we all know from various information products with which we are familiar. I don't have any answers and this is not a hill I'd like to die defending, but surely there are more efficient, organized ways of transmitting intra-professional dialogue asynchronously?
>>
>>
>> Eleanor Truex BSN, MLIS
>> Medical Librarian, Lakefront Region
>>
>> Presence
>> Saint Francis Hospital
>> 355 Ridge Avenue | Evanston, IL 60202
>> Office: 847.316.2460
>>
>> Presence
>> Saint Joseph Hospital
>> 2900 North Lake Shore Drive | Chicago, IL 06057
>> Office: 773.665.3038
>>
>> [log in to unmask]
>> www.presencehealth.org
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Medical Libraries Discussion List 
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Julia Stuart
>> Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 8:08 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: summary on searching our listserv
>>
>> and most impressive, per former ListMom, Valerie Rankow:
>> The search interface for the Archives is not intuitive, so I prepared these directions way, way back when I was ListMom. Like explaining how to tie your shoelaces, it's more complicated to explain than to do:
>>
>> SEARCHING THE MEDLIB-L ARCHIVES:
>>
>> First, go to the main entry site,
>> http://list.uvm.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=MEDLIB-L
>>
>> This is not a speedy process. You may have time to read most of "War and Peace" while you wait for things to load, at each stage of this process.
>>
>> You should login with your email address that you use to receive MEDLIB-L emails.
>>
>> The Login button is up on the far right.
>>
>> Enter your password. If you haven't been here before, or it's been so long, you don't remember it, get a new one.
>> Once the interface recognizes you, you'll end up on a page with ALL the bazillion LISTSERV email discussion list names.
>>
>> Find MEDLIB-L and click on it.
>>
>> A bit of trivia - the word LISTSERV is like saying KLEENEX for tissues. It is the trademarked name of a bazillion email discussion groups that use LISTSERV management software, from L-SOFT. There are other management software applications that are used for other email discussion groups (like Yahoo Groups, and Google Groups, MailChimp, Lyris, and a bunch more).
>> MEDLIB-L is an email discussion group that uses the LISTSERV management software.
>>
>> The posts are listed on the Archives website by date, from August 1993 to the present, so you can search by date, which is actually the fastest interface, if you have a clue when a particular message was posted.
>>
>> To search by subject or author, select SEARCH ARCHIVES, which appears in the ADVANCED OPTIONS area, on the far right of your screen.
>>
>> When you (finally) reach the Archive Search (MEDLIB-L) page, put down "War and Peace," and you will see various search boxes.
>>
>> THE TOP SEARCH BOX SAYS
>> Search For
>> String
>>
>> I highly recommend you use that box, and also check the sub-string box. I will say this more than once - with LISTSERV archives search, less is better.
>>
>> Since many people do not use a descriptive subject line (some just 
>> write Help), the results are not even close to comprehensive if you 
>> search the box that says, "Subject contains."  Instead, I recommend 
>> you enter your term in the TOP SEARCH BOX, String
>>
>> If you check the "Substring Search" box, your search will match any word containing the string you have entered. Do note that the substring makes your search term the *root* of the word and searches backwards and forwards.
>> For example, a substring search for chem would find both "chemistry" and "alchemy."
>>
>> You can use the Boolean operators OR or AND or parentheses to format your search, but I have found that LESS produces more, when selecting search terms, and the only effective limit is date.
>>
>> THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT TO AVOID SOME ADDITIONAL FRUSTRATION: Because the results are displayed with the oldest messages first, it is helpful to limit by date, for example, the most recent two years, and then repeat the search to find older messages, for example, 2014 - 2016.
>> That is not a typo. If you use 2016 as the end date, you'll get all of 2015, up to today.
>>
>> Author or Date
>> You can also search by author or date. Use the appropriate boxes for date limits down at the bottom, if you want to reduce the quantity of your of results. Also, you can use the Sort by drop-down box to select how you want your results organized (date, author, subject, etc.).
>>
>> Next, click on the SEARCH button bar, which is below all of the search boxes, on the middle of the screen.
>> Finish "War and Peace."
>>
>> When the search results are displayed, click on the Item # of the message to display the message text.  Your search term is highlighted in the "abstract"
>> section below the list. If someone has a better name for that group, pretty please tell me.
>>
>> If the results have include more than 50 hits, click on [Next] at the end of the list of items to display the additional results.
>>
>> Please let me know if you have any questions about the Archives, and I will do my best to help.
>>
>> To test these directions, I just searched on the word valerie and limited by dates 2010 - 2016 and there were 222 hits, plus this one, which should be the top one.
>>
>> Virtually,
>> Valerie
>> Formerly, ListMom
>>
>>
>> ==================================================================
>>
>>
>> MedLib-L is a Listserv software based discussion group, so the first thing to know is that any guidance on searching commands and techniques for Listserv on the web will apply to MedLib-L barring customization by the list owners or the host institution.
>>
>>
>> The web address for this group's archives is:
>>
>>
>> https://list.uvm.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=MEDLIB-L
>>
>> .
>> summary on searching our listserv?
>>
>>
>>
>> This link that I found does however apply to MEDLIB-L specifcally and seems to be pretty good.
>>
>> Database Searching of MEDLAB-L
>>
>> http://www.ualberta.ca/~pletendr/database.html
>>
>> .
>>
>> We also can find this information from the horse's mouth, i.e. form Lsoft, the owner of the product Listserv.
>>
>> Section 1 LISTSERV Archive Search Functions
>>
>> http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/15.5/htmlhelp/
>> advanced%20topics/LSArchiveSearchFunctions.3.1.html
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -------------------------
>> I usually go to the URL of Med-Lib:
>>
>> https://list.uvm.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A0=MEDLIB-L
>>
>> There is a search box over in the right column.
>>
>> I don't find that I need to login to do a search but there is a login in the top right.
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Julia Stuart, MLS,Director
>> Health Education Library
>> NewYork-Presbyterian/Queens
>> 56-45 Main St.
>> Flushing, NY 11355
>> ph: 718-670-1600
>> fax: 718-886-4503
>>
>> This electronic message is intended to be for the use only of the named recipient, and may contain information that is confidential or privileged.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this message is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this message in error or are not the named recipient, please notify us immediately by contacting the sender at the electronic mail address noted above, and delete and destroy all copies of this message.  Thank you.
>>
>