Lisa,
Please don't feel disrespected by this thread. I know that all of us have put in time become knowledgeable about our profession. This thread was geared toward the advanced certification of Advanced Sonographer and how it's a rather pointless certification at this point in time.
Also, the CME's we take are no different then the basic, open book test that my child takes in school. Read the article, answer the questions from the reading material and you get your CME's.
Jeremy Orlikoski
> Date: Tue, 3 May 2016 15:38:08 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: UVMFLOWNET Digest - 2 May 2016 (#2016-72)
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Wow... reading this I feel really insulted, as probably a lot of sonographers out there.
> First--most of us spent over 2 years to get our degree.... It takes a total of 4 years for most to get the prereqs and then into the program. And the time is over when you put in the summers and clinicals. I have an AA and an AA and very proud of both.
> Second--- I did study Construction technology before going back into medicine, (also worked as an Optician for 10 years). We are not the same as a "trade". Houses don't die. Plumbers and Electricians don't have to do CME's. My husband is a Master Mechanic and holds certification in 40 different sub areas. Yes he takes a test every year , but it is basic. (he just took 6 last Saturday and was home by lunch, no studying--they test on what they do all day)
> Third--- BA are a dime a dozen in today's world, there are plenty of recent studies that show the BA degree does not guarantee a good worker. In fact, many employers are going back to wanting EXPERIENCE, over book work. Experience in our field means commitment. Doing the 2am, 4am runs and still making it to work at 6 am to put in a 10 hr day.
> Age discrimination is on the rise and low quality work also. (how many RN are there that have a BSN but they actually had a BA in Liberal Arts and took an 18 month course to get the BSN?)
> I am very proud of my years of experience and the opportunities I have had because MD's, like Dr Bergan, saw my commitment and mentored me. I would not trade all those years of after hours, Sat and Sun work on top of my long hours in the hospital setting and taking call 5-7 days a week for a $40,00 plus bill and a piece of paper that said I spent hours in a classroom learning things that had nothing to do with the world of medicine I was involved in.
> And I might add-- the people that contributed the most , had the least education and the greatest imagination and innovation. And there are some that have gotten credit for the innovation that some else put the work into...... Truth in Life, real life.
>
>
>
> Lisa Kincaid, RVT
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of UVMFLOWNET automatic digest system
> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2016 21:00 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: UVMFLOWNET Digest - 2 May 2016 (#2016-72)
>
> There are 7 messages totaling 6352 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. Ultrasound PR actioner (5)
> 2. integration of data (2)
>
> To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:
> http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 12:54:41 -0400
> From: Bill Schroedter <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
>
> You are almost totally correct Jeremy with the exception that the plumber and carpenter are in one way, quite different than us. They, along with the person who cuts your hair, are required to demonstrate at least some level of competence in order to practice. This is assured by licensure and our lack of it is a true indictment of our profession – oops - sorry trade ;-) And your salary with never appreciate significantly until we are because as Andy mentioned, the large and ever increasing majority of employers are now for profit corporations whose primary responsibility is making money for shareholders.
>
> Wow – and its only Monday!
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> From: UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of jeremy orlikoski
> Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 12:05 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
>
>
>
> Laura,
>
>
>
> I totally agree with you. If I could reset the clock and start over again I would go through a 4 year program but after 14 years in the field going back to school for 3-4 years to make the same salary as I do now doesn't financially make any sense. But I also love what I do everyday. Seeing patients and interacting with them is what makes me get out of bed every morning (and middle of the night for a r/o DVT in the ER). Management has NO appeal for me and I'm sure for many other people, so the 4 year degree would be wasted on them.
>
>
>
> I always explain to people that what I do is just a trade. Like a plumber or carpenter.... It's a skill that takes both knowledge and physical ability to perform the job. Now we all know there is a HUGE difference between a master plumber and a regular plumber same goes for a general carpenter and a finish carpenter. Both jobs require the minimal training for the base level career but the master plumber and finish carpenter require skills that not every plumber or carpenter will ever posses no matter how much they study and take tests. Sonography is they same way. There are thousands of us sonographer in this country. Most of us are very dedicated to our chosen careers but there are some sonographers who's technical ability and knowledge surpasses the rest. I've had the privilege to work with some of these individuals. In our chosen field there is no way to distinguish one of these individuals from the rest of us because there's no monetary advantage in obtaining any additio!
> nal credentials. If you've never hired a plumber or a carpenter then you don't know there's a HUGE cost difference between a general carpenter and a finish carpenter; with sonography there is no difference in cost to the patient when getting an ultrasound done by an unaccredited, 2 year college sonographer and a sonographer with a Bachelor degree. So the advanced sonographer credential realistically would just let us 'toot our horns' regarding our credentials to others in the sonography field but concisely benefit us or our employers....
>
>
>
> More credentials don't mean that you're a better sonographer then the next person, my personal experience is the more registries you have the less competent you are at the individual modalities. Each ultrasound modality requires an enormous amount of knowledge and physical ability to perform with a high accuracy. Once you 'water down' your training with general, vascular, throw in OB/GYN for good measure too, you now have the entire human body to interrogate from gestation to death.... That's just too much information, in today's medical world, to absorb and regurgitate on demand and require individuals to physically perform all the required examinations.
>
>
>
> Dang... Sorry the train left the tracks on this tread.
>
>
>
> Back to the main topic... What was it again....
>
> Jeremy Orlikoski
>
>
> On May 2, 2016, at 10:17 AM, Laura Vasquez <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:
>
> Tuition cost should be justified by receiving the highest level and quality of the education and this endeavor should be looked as an investment. What you will make your first year out of school should surpass the total tuition cost. Typically, that is how you should approach any educational investment.
>
>
>
> Regardless of the sources that have given you their perspective, I think you have to take people's opinions "with a grain of salt"—including mine. Some will tell you that you only need to pursue a program that would allow you to take the registry once completed. I think it's imperative to accomplish college credits for any educational program you pursue. The reason being, you will be able to take those credits with you to another institution and accomplish the higher degree.
>
>
>
> A BS degree in imaging science is a great thing to have for all of the career paths and for the management and upward mobility potential that might limit a tech with an AS degree alone- I say might because I am privileged to work with some phenomenal elite sonographers/MRI & CT technologists who came from hospital based programs. Bottom line, as in any field, the more education you have the more qualified you are for a given position. Although, it is not the only consideration. Attention should be paid to: management training and experience, in addition to time spent functioning within the multitude of capacities expected of our career field. I would highly recommend a BS degree. The job market is tough out there and you will be more marketable with a BS degree.
>
>
>
> Advisory focuses on MRI &CT Medicare program policies. Policies may apply to selected private payers in addressing coding, coverage, and payment for diagnostic CT & MRI and Interventional procedures. Fortunately, according to American Society of Radiologic Technologists (ASRT), salaries do increase for those who possess an advanced educational degree, along with the knowledge and skills for advanced practice. I am surprised and it’s an injustice that this is not the case for the sonography field.
>
>
>
> ~lv
>
>
>
>
>
> Laura Vasquez, Ph.D.(C), RVT (ARDMS), RT (R), (MR), (ARRT)
>
> Program Director, Imaging Sciences Program
>
> Associate Chairperson, Department of Medical Physics & Advanced Imaging
>
> Chairperson, CHS Diversity Committee
>
> Rush University, College of Health Sciences
> 600 South Paulina Street
>
> 764A Armour Academic Center
>
> Chicago, Illinois 60612-3244
> Tel: (312) 942-2842
>
>
>
>
> “By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail.”
>
> <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/b/benjamin_franklin.html> Benjamin Franklin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: UVM Flownet [ <mailto:[log in to unmask]> mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of jeremy orlikoski
> Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 9:40 AM
> To: <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
>
>
>
> Dang! Time to relocate.... Don't come to Austin, TX not much better here either.
>
> Jeremy Orlikoski
>
>
> On May 2, 2016, at 9:37 AM, Andrew Bebry <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:
>
> Steve:
>
> I understand that, thanks. I respect your input and experience very much Steve.
>
> Here on Long Island however, some of my peer cardiothoracic and vascular surgeons that I have worked with for decades have been semi-suddenly let go for new hires. They were furious! This is disgusting!! Now my immediate area has NOONE to go vein grafts. They just do quick synthetic fem-pops cause its easier and saves time. Three of my local hospitals does NOT have a staff vascular surgeon on standby in these facilities. There is one contracted doc to handle all three and the doc has to rent space from the hospital in order to see patients there. Many of those cases are sent to other linked hospitals. I know certain hospitals are better suited for certain procedures, but why put patients out by transferring them for procedures we routinely used to do here? The local conglomerate administrators and making millions each and cut salaries on employees. Did you know that "our" local system spent $85 million on a NAME CHANGE. Did nothing for patients. Did nothing for em!
> ployees. Each employee (all 61 million) could have gotten a $1 million raise; they would then love to work there; the consensus is a bad attitude toward the system. Say more prayers. Sincerely, Andy
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Steve Knight <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:
>
> Andrew the ACS credential is a reality for echo and several people have achieved it already. I think the pay for somebody with 18 months of applied technology training at community college (only a portion of which is didactic) is fair to the new hire. Those same people have a very limited role as new grads and have limited career flexibility should they give up or lose their job. Somebody with a baccalaureate degree (or higher) has many more options as far as career path goes. Until a higher level of education is required to practice ultrasound, business will be business and hire accordingly.
> Steve
>
> On May 2, 2016 7:07 AM, "Andrew Bebry" <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:
>
> Jeremy. I believe this topic has come up before. Not likely the credential will be a reality. Facilities do not want to pay more for codes they are already getting paid for. As a matter of FACT, 'facilities' are hiring techs real cheap right out of school and when private offices are acquired, the techs are taking a $10 PER HOUR CUT for the same work. Who would want the additional liability when you are not rewarded for your efforts and training? Gee, sounds like socialization. Sorry for the truth. Just my 'opinion.' Andy Bebry Rvt Rcs
>
> On May 2, 2016 9:59 AM, "jeremy orlikoski" <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:
>
> How would a practitioner's salary compare to a sonographer with 10-15 years of experience? Because at 10-15 years we're already maxed out at most facilities.
>
>
> Jeremy Orlikoski
>
>
> On May 2, 2016, at 8:30 AM, Phan, James <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:
>
> I am in support of the ACS credential. However, The minimum requirement for the sonographer in my opinion should be upgraded to at least an associated degree and to me a bachelor is preferred.
>
>
>
> Respectfully,
>
>
>
> James Phan
>
>
>
> From: UVM Flownet [ <mailto:[log in to unmask]> mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Terrence Case
> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2016 5:29 AM
> To: <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Ultrasound Practioner
>
>
>
> Steve I believe 100% that the basic core of education for the position of ultrasound practitioner, should be at minimum a baccalaureate degree. Terry Case
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On May 2, 2016, at 1:07 AM, Steve Knight <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:
>
> Jay thank you for sharing Mr. Horton's letter. I have yet to read the full white paper (the link will only get me as far as the abstract without a paid membership of the ASE.)
>
>
>
> The blue paper from 2007 contains the following passage: "The ACS profession requires additional curriculum beyond a bachelor’s degree and an internship (with a proposed higher level credential)".
>
>
>
> The spirit of that passage has not been followed by the CCI. I'm glad that advanced practice is starting to gain some ground but it is still my opinion that the minimum level of education for the CCI ACS credential should be a baccalaureate degree and not a high school diploma.
>
>
>
> Respectfully,
>
>
>
> Steve Knight
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Terrence Case <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:
>
> Excellent review. Thank you. Terry Case
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On May 1, 2016, at 2:58 PM, Jay Shafer <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:
>
> Good afternoon,
>
> I am sharing this response from Ken Horton the president of CCI. It is sent on behalf of the CCI leadership team in the hope that it helps in the conversation.
>
> Jay Shafer
>
>
>
>
>
> In cardiac echo there is not a true "mid-level provider"
>
> 1. The Advanced Cardiac Sonographer (ACS) examination was developed by Cardiovascular Credentialing International (CCI) at the request of the American Society of Echocardiography (ASE) and the Committee on Accreditation – Advanced Cardiac Sonographer (CoA-ACS). In 2008 a white paper was published in JASE identifying a need for an advanced level sonographer. I recommend you read this article that describes the role of the ACS as it was originally envisioned.
>
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.onlinejase.com_article_S0894-2D7317-2809-2900907-2D9_pdf&d=CwMFaQ&c=XxU8ngzB_WPJXKyiin_6iQ&r=XVp7Tb8BN3KWjNN6H53AT3cHTZses366O0j2JhrKMu4&m=tP1SpeAL1Xl8LxvxPV_vb_T-HRz8Wez104_UGEfXiNw&s=yV02ws1mokP9IBsHolWYp9asn-MX9bE6Lso8xSZBbhw&e=> Link to the ASE White Paper
>
> 2. There is not a true "mid-level provider" in cardiac echo. There have been two blue pages written in JASE that also describe the role of the ACS I encourage you to read these blue pages.
>
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.onlinejase.com_article_S0894-2D7317-2811-2900965-2D5_pdf&d=CwMFaQ&c=XxU8ngzB_WPJXKyiin_6iQ&r=XVp7Tb8BN3KWjNN6H53AT3cHTZses366O0j2JhrKMu4&m=tP1SpeAL1Xl8LxvxPV_vb_T-HRz8Wez104_UGEfXiNw&s=QUgFhoLZVwH7KQBZovbHxz9KxPVMS2aG6ISI-qs4yZg&e=> Link to blue page Feb 2012 – Michelle Bierig
>
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.onlinejase.com_article_S0894-2D7317-2815-2900182-2D0_pdf&d=CwMFaQ&c=XxU8ngzB_WPJXKyiin_6iQ&r=XVp7Tb8BN3KWjNN6H53AT3cHTZses366O0j2JhrKMu4&m=tP1SpeAL1Xl8LxvxPV_vb_T-HRz8Wez104_UGEfXiNw&s=pLXhvyNR92pRDEFQj1HmoBZ20MXWWTiq4PaJJQNov34&e=> Link to blue page May 2015 - Matt Umland
>
> 3. The ACS examination is an advanced level examination used to assess an advanced level of knowledge. It goes beyond the entry level concepts that are assessed by the RCS and RDCS examinations. When the ACS exam was developed it was assumed there would be educational programs created and the graduates would take the exam. Experiential pathways were added to bridge the gap until enough educational programs were created to support the exam. At this time there are two (that I am aware of) ACS programs accepting students. Currently all applicants that have taken the exam have used the experiential pathways.
>
> 4. The ACS Examination Booklet has the answers to all your questions. The booklet has all the prerequisites (page 5) for taking the examination, the examination matrix )page 7) broke down by percentage (a perfect guide to help you “budget” your study time), and a list of study references (page 7). CCI does not endorse any particular reference over another. Also, the ASE is in the early phases of developing an exam review course. This will take some time and I suspect a product won’t be available for 10-12 months. This is a link to the ACS exam booklet that has all this information.
>
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__cci-2Donline.org_sites_default_files_2015-2520ACS-2520App-2520Book-2DFINAL.pdf&d=CwMFaQ&c=XxU8ngzB_WPJXKyiin_6iQ&r=XVp7Tb8BN3KWjNN6H53AT3cHTZses366O0j2JhrKMu4&m=tP1SpeAL1Xl8LxvxPV_vb_T-HRz8Wez104_UGEfXiNw&s=WN_7cgtHX8RA08T-v6Dg2_vhgEq4AOt4GLHgWT5_tKU&e=> Link to ACS Exam Booklet
>
> 5. As heath care and reimbursement models change we will see the role of the sonographer change and potentially a broadening of our scope of practice. I applaud the ASE, the Council on Cardiovascular Sonography and the CoA-ACS on their forward thinking. I feel the creation of this pathway is the first step in preparing sonography for these changes.
>
> Please feel free to respond to this post or to me directly ( <mailto:[log in to unmask]> [log in to unmask]) with any other questions you have.
>
> -----------------------------
> Ken Horton ACS, RCS, FASE
> President, Cardiovascular Credentialing International (CCI)
> Intermountain Heart Institute
> Intermountain Medical Center
> Murray, Utah
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 30, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Terrence Case <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:
>
> Anyone familiar with this term or know anyone using it?
>
>
>
> Terry Case
>
> Sent from iCloud
>
> To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to: http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__list.uvm.edu_archives_uvmflownet.html&d=CwMFaQ&c=XxU8ngzB_WPJXKyiin_6iQ&r=XVp7Tb8BN3KWjNN6H53AT3cHTZses366O0j2JhrKMu4&m=tP1SpeAL1Xl8LxvxPV_vb_T-HRz8Wez104_UGEfXiNw&s=W0FzgCeu7tEHBaKmxUTnYQkVIBJ8Mald3e7DvQ0UB5g&e=>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Jay Shafer
>
>
>
> Lead with your heart, follow with your mind and let your spirit soar!!
>
> -Shafer
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 12:01:05 -0500
> From: jeremy orlikoski <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
>
> Very true. Very true....
>
> Jeremy Orlikoski
>
> > On May 2, 2016, at 11:55 AM, Bill Schroedter <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > You are almost totally correct Jeremy with the exception that the plumber and carpenter are in one way, quite different than us. They, along with the person who cuts your hair, are required to demonstrate at least some level of competence in order to practice. This is assured by licensure and our lack of it is a true indictment of our profession – oops - sorry trade ;-) And your salary with never appreciate significantly until we are because as Andy mentioned, the large and ever increasing majority of employers are now for profit corporations whose primary responsibility is making money for shareholders.
> > Wow – and its only Monday!
> > Bill
> >
> > From: UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of jeremy orlikoski
> > Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 12:05 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
> >
> > Laura,
> >
> > I totally agree with you. If I could reset the clock and start over again I would go through a 4 year program but after 14 years in the field going back to school for 3-4 years to make the same salary as I do now doesn't financially make any sense. But I also love what I do everyday. Seeing patients and interacting with them is what makes me get out of bed every morning (and middle of the night for a r/o DVT in the ER). Management has NO appeal for me and I'm sure for many other people, so the 4 year degree would be wasted on them.
> >
> > I always explain to people that what I do is just a trade. Like a plumber or carpenter.... It's a skill that takes both knowledge and physical ability to perform the job. Now we all know there is a HUGE difference between a master plumber and a regular plumber same goes for a general carpenter and a finish carpenter. Both jobs require the minimal training for the base level career but the master plumber and finish carpenter require skills that not every plumber or carpenter will ever posses no matter how much they study and take tests. Sonography is they same way. There are thousands of us sonographer in this country. Most of us are very dedicated to our chosen careers but there are some sonographers who's technical ability and knowledge surpasses the rest. I've had the privilege to work with some of these individuals. In our chosen field there is no way to distinguish one of these individuals from the rest of us because there's no monetary advantage in obtaining any addit!
> ional credentials. If you've never hired a plumber or a carpenter then you don't know there's a HUGE cost difference between a general carpenter and a finish carpenter; with sonography there is no difference in cost to the patient when getting an ultrasound done by an unaccredited, 2 year college sonographer and a sonographer with a Bachelor degree. So the advanced sonographer credential realistically would just let us 'toot our horns' regarding our credentials to others in the sonography field but concisely benefit us or our employers....
> >
> > More credentials don't mean that you're a better sonographer then the next person, my personal experience is the more registries you have the less competent you are at the individual modalities. Each ultrasound modality requires an enormous amount of knowledge and physical ability to perform with a high accuracy. Once you 'water down' your training with general, vascular, throw in OB/GYN for good measure too, you now have the entire human body to interrogate from gestation to death.... That's just too much information, in today's medical world, to absorb and regurgitate on demand and require individuals to physically perform all the required examinations.
> >
> > Dang... Sorry the train left the tracks on this tread.
> >
> > Back to the main topic... What was it again....
> >
> > Jeremy Orlikoski
> >
> > On May 2, 2016, at 10:17 AM, Laura Vasquez <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Tuition cost should be justified by receiving the highest level and quality of the education and this endeavor should be looked as an investment. What you will make your first year out of school should surpass the total tuition cost. Typically, that is how you should approach any educational investment.
> >
> > Regardless of the sources that have given you their perspective, I think you have to take people's opinions "with a grain of salt"—including mine. Some will tell you that you only need to pursue a program that would allow you to take the registry once completed. I think it's imperative to accomplish college credits for any educational program you pursue. The reason being, you will be able to take those credits with you to another institution and accomplish the higher degree.
> >
> > A BS degree in imaging science is a great thing to have for all of the career paths and for the management and upward mobility potential that might limit a tech with an AS degree alone- I say might because I am privileged to work with some phenomenal elite sonographers/MRI & CT technologists who came from hospital based programs. Bottom line, as in any field, the more education you have the more qualified you are for a given position. Although, it is not the only consideration. Attention should be paid to: management training and experience, in addition to time spent functioning within the multitude of capacities expected of our career field. I would highly recommend a BS degree. The job market is tough out there and you will be more marketable with a BS degree.
> >
> > Advisory focuses on MRI &CT Medicare program policies. Policies may apply to selected private payers in addressing coding, coverage, and payment for diagnostic CT & MRI and Interventional procedures. Fortunately, according to American Society of Radiologic Technologists (ASRT), salaries do increase for those who possess an advanced educational degree, along with the knowledge and skills for advanced practice. I am surprised and it’s an injustice that this is not the case for the sonography field.
> >
> > ~lv
> >
> >
> > Laura Vasquez, Ph.D.(C), RVT (ARDMS), RT (R), (MR), (ARRT)
> > Program Director, Imaging Sciences Program
> > Associate Chairperson, Department of Medical Physics & Advanced Imaging
> > Chairperson, CHS Diversity Committee
> > Rush University, College of Health Sciences
> > 600 South Paulina Street
> > 764A Armour Academic Center
> > Chicago, Illinois 60612-3244
> > Tel: (312) 942-2842
> >
> >
> > “By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail.”
> > Benjamin Franklin
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of jeremy orlikoski
> > Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 9:40 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
> >
> > Dang! Time to relocate.... Don't come to Austin, TX not much better here either.
> >
> > Jeremy Orlikoski
> >
> > On May 2, 2016, at 9:37 AM, Andrew Bebry <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Steve:
> > I understand that, thanks. I respect your input and experience very much Steve.
> > Here on Long Island however, some of my peer cardiothoracic and vascular surgeons that I have worked with for decades have been semi-suddenly let go for new hires. They were furious! This is disgusting!! Now my immediate area has NOONE to go vein grafts. They just do quick synthetic fem-pops cause its easier and saves time. Three of my local hospitals does NOT have a staff vascular surgeon on standby in these facilities. There is one contracted doc to handle all three and the doc has to rent space from the hospital in order to see patients there. Many of those cases are sent to other linked hospitals. I know certain hospitals are better suited for certain procedures, but why put patients out by transferring them for procedures we routinely used to do here? The local conglomerate administrators and making millions each and cut salaries on employees. Did you know that "our" local system spent $85 million on a NAME CHANGE. Did nothing for patients. Did nothing for !
> employees. Each employee (all 61 million) could have gotten a $1 million raise; they would then love to work there; the consensus is a bad attitude toward the system. Say more prayers. Sincerely, Andy
> >
> > On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Steve Knight <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Andrew the ACS credential is a reality for echo and several people have achieved it already. I think the pay for somebody with 18 months of applied technology training at community college (only a portion of which is didactic) is fair to the new hire. Those same people have a very limited role as new grads and have limited career flexibility should they give up or lose their job. Somebody with a baccalaureate degree (or higher) has many more options as far as career path goes. Until a higher level of education is required to practice ultrasound, business will be business and hire accordingly.
> > Steve
> >
> > On May 2, 2016 7:07 AM, "Andrew Bebry" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Jeremy. I believe this topic has come up before. Not likely the credential will be a reality. Facilities do not want to pay more for codes they are already getting paid for. As a matter of FACT, 'facilities' are hiring techs real cheap right out of school and when private offices are acquired, the techs are taking a $10 PER HOUR CUT for the same work. Who would want the additional liability when you are not rewarded for your efforts and training? Gee, sounds like socialization. Sorry for the truth. Just my 'opinion.' Andy Bebry Rvt Rcs
> >
> > On May 2, 2016 9:59 AM, "jeremy orlikoski" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > How would a practitioner's salary compare to a sonographer with 10-15 years of experience? Because at 10-15 years we're already maxed out at most facilities.
> >
> > Jeremy Orlikoski
> >
> > On May 2, 2016, at 8:30 AM, Phan, James <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > I am in support of the ACS credential. However, The minimum requirement for the sonographer in my opinion should be upgraded to at least an associated degree and to me a bachelor is preferred.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > James Phan
> >
> > From: UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Terrence Case
> > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2016 5:29 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Ultrasound Practioner
> >
> > Steve I believe 100% that the basic core of education for the position of ultrasound practitioner, should be at minimum a baccalaureate degree. Terry Case
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On May 2, 2016, at 1:07 AM, Steve Knight <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Jay thank you for sharing Mr. Horton's letter. I have yet to read the full white paper (the link will only get me as far as the abstract without a paid membership of the ASE.)
> >
> > The blue paper from 2007 contains the following passage: "The ACS profession requires additional curriculum beyond a bachelor’s degree and an internship (with a proposed higher level credential)".
> >
> > The spirit of that passage has not been followed by the CCI. I'm glad that advanced practice is starting to gain some ground but it is still my opinion that the minimum level of education for the CCI ACS credential should be a baccalaureate degree and not a high school diploma.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Steve Knight
> >
> >
> > On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Terrence Case <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Excellent review. Thank you. Terry Case
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On May 1, 2016, at 2:58 PM, Jay Shafer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Good afternoon,
> >
> > I am sharing this response from Ken Horton the president of CCI. It is sent on behalf of the CCI leadership team in the hope that it helps in the conversation.
> >
> > Jay Shafer
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In cardiac echo there is not a true "mid-level provider"
> >
> > 1. The Advanced Cardiac Sonographer (ACS) examination was developed by Cardiovascular Credentialing International (CCI) at the request of the American Society of Echocardiography (ASE) and the Committee on Accreditation – Advanced Cardiac Sonographer (CoA-ACS). In 2008 a white paper was published in JASE identifying a need for an advanced level sonographer. I recommend you read this article that describes the role of the ACS as it was originally envisioned.
> >
> > Link to the ASE White Paper
> >
> > 2. There is not a true "mid-level provider" in cardiac echo. There have been two blue pages written in JASE that also describe the role of the ACS I encourage you to read these blue pages.
> >
> > Link to blue page Feb 2012 – Michelle Bierig
> >
> > Link to blue page May 2015 - Matt Umland
> >
> > 3. The ACS examination is an advanced level examination used to assess an advanced level of knowledge. It goes beyond the entry level concepts that are assessed by the RCS and RDCS examinations. When the ACS exam was developed it was assumed there would be educational programs created and the graduates would take the exam. Experiential pathways were added to bridge the gap until enough educational programs were created to support the exam. At this time there are two (that I am aware of) ACS programs accepting students. Currently all applicants that have taken the exam have used the experiential pathways.
> >
> > 4. The ACS Examination Booklet has the answers to all your questions. The booklet has all the prerequisites (page 5) for taking the examination, the examination matrix )page 7) broke down by percentage (a perfect guide to help you “budget” your study time), and a list of study references (page 7). CCI does not endorse any particular reference over another. Also, the ASE is in the early phases of developing an exam review course. This will take some time and I suspect a product won’t be available for 10-12 months. This is a link to the ACS exam booklet that has all this information.
> >
> > Link to ACS Exam Booklet
> >
> > 5. As heath care and reimbursement models change we will see the role of the sonographer change and potentially a broadening of our scope of practice. I applaud the ASE, the Council on Cardiovascular Sonography and the CoA-ACS on their forward thinking. I feel the creation of this pathway is the first step in preparing sonography for these changes.
> >
> > Please feel free to respond to this post or to me directly ([log in to unmask]) with any other questions you have.
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > Ken Horton ACS, RCS, FASE
> > President, Cardiovascular Credentialing International (CCI)
> > Intermountain Heart Institute
> > Intermountain Medical Center
> > Murray, Utah
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 30, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Terrence Case <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > Anyone familiar with this term or know anyone using it?
> >
> > Terry Case
> > Sent from iCloud
> > To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to: http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jay Shafer
> >
> > Lead with your heart, follow with your mind and let your spirit soar!!
> >
> > -Shafer
> >
> > To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to: http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
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> >
> > To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to: http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
> > To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to: http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
> > This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may contain privileged and confidential information and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination or copying of this e-mail or any of its attachment(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sending individual or entity by e-mail and permanently delete the original e-mail and attachment(s) from your computer system. Thank you for your cooperation.
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 13:07:12 -0400
> From: Andrew Bebry <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
>
> Keep it coming.
> Andy
>
> On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 1:01 PM, jeremy orlikoski <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > Very true. Very true....
> >
> > Jeremy Orlikoski
> >
> > On May 2, 2016, at 11:55 AM, Bill Schroedter <
> > [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> >
> > You are almost totally correct Jeremy with the exception that the plumber
> > and carpenter are in one way, quite different than us. They, along with
> > the person who cuts your hair, are required to demonstrate at least some
> > level of competence in order to practice. This is assured by licensure and
> > our lack of it is a true indictment of our profession – oops - sorry trade
> > ;-) And your salary with never appreciate significantly until we are
> > because as Andy mentioned, the large and ever increasing majority of
> > employers are now for profit corporations whose primary responsibility is
> > making money for shareholders.
> >
> > Wow – and its only Monday!
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> > <[log in to unmask]>] *On Behalf Of *jeremy orlikoski
> > *Sent:* Monday, May 2, 2016 12:05 PM
> > *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> > *Subject:* Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
> >
> >
> >
> > Laura,
> >
> >
> >
> > I totally agree with you. If I could reset the clock and start over again
> > I would go through a 4 year program but after 14 years in the field going
> > back to school for 3-4 years to make the same salary as I do now doesn't
> > financially make any sense. But I also love what I do everyday. Seeing
> > patients and interacting with them is what makes me get out of bed every
> > morning (and middle of the night for a r/o DVT in the ER). Management has
> > NO appeal for me and I'm sure for many other people, so the 4 year degree
> > would be wasted on them.
> >
> >
> >
> > I always explain to people that what I do is just a trade. Like a plumber
> > or carpenter.... It's a skill that takes both knowledge and physical
> > ability to perform the job. Now we all know there is a HUGE difference
> > between a master plumber and a regular plumber same goes for a general
> > carpenter and a finish carpenter. Both jobs require the minimal training
> > for the base level career but the master plumber and finish carpenter
> > require skills that not every plumber or carpenter will ever posses no
> > matter how much they study and take tests. Sonography is they same way.
> > There are thousands of us sonographer in this country. Most of us are very
> > dedicated to our chosen careers but there are some sonographers who's
> > technical ability and knowledge surpasses the rest. I've had the privilege
> > to work with some of these individuals. In our chosen field there is no way
> > to distinguish one of these individuals from the rest of us because there's
> > no monetary advantage in obtaining any additional credentials. If you've
> > never hired a plumber or a carpenter then you don't know there's a HUGE
> > cost difference between a general carpenter and a finish carpenter; with
> > sonography there is no difference in cost to the patient when getting an
> > ultrasound done by an unaccredited, 2 year college sonographer and a
> > sonographer with a Bachelor degree. So the advanced sonographer credential
> > realistically would just let us 'toot our horns' regarding our credentials
> > to others in the sonography field but concisely benefit us or our
> > employers....
> >
> >
> >
> > More credentials don't mean that you're a better sonographer then the next
> > person, my personal experience is the more registries you have the less
> > competent you are at the individual modalities. Each ultrasound modality
> > requires an enormous amount of knowledge and physical ability to perform
> > with a high accuracy. Once you 'water down' your training with general,
> > vascular, throw in OB/GYN for good measure too, you now have the entire
> > human body to interrogate from gestation to death.... That's just too much
> > information, in today's medical world, to absorb and regurgitate on demand
> > and require individuals to physically perform all the required
> > examinations.
> >
> >
> >
> > Dang... Sorry the train left the tracks on this tread.
> >
> >
> >
> > Back to the main topic... What was it again....
> >
> > Jeremy Orlikoski
> >
> >
> > On May 2, 2016, at 10:17 AM, Laura Vasquez <[log in to unmask]
> > <[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> >
> > Tuition cost should be justified by receiving the highest level and
> > quality of the education and this endeavor should be looked as an
> > investment. What you will make your first year out of school should surpass
> > the total tuition cost. Typically, that is how you should approach any
> > educational investment.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regardless of the sources that have given you their perspective, I think
> > you have to take people's opinions "with a grain of salt"—including mine. Some
> > will tell you that you only need to pursue a program that would allow you
> > to take the registry once completed. I think it's imperative to accomplish
> > college credits for any educational program you pursue. The reason being,
> > you will be able to take those credits with you to another institution and
> > accomplish the higher degree.
> >
> >
> >
> > A BS degree in imaging science is a great thing to have for all of the
> > career paths and for the management and upward mobility potential that
> > *might* limit a tech with an AS degree alone- *I say might because I am
> > privileged to work with some phenomenal elite sonographers/MRI & CT
> > technologists who came from hospital based programs.* Bottom line, as in
> > any field, the more education you have the more qualified you are for a
> > given position. Although, it is not the only consideration. Attention
> > should be paid to: management training and experience, in addition to time
> > spent functioning within the multitude of capacities expected of our career
> > field. I would highly recommend a BS degree. The job market is tough out
> > there and you will be more marketable with a BS degree.
> >
> >
> >
> > Advisory focuses on MRI &CT Medicare program policies. Policies may apply
> > to selected private payers in addressing coding, coverage, and payment for
> > diagnostic CT & MRI and Interventional procedures. Fortunately, according
> > to American Society of Radiologic Technologists (ASRT), salaries do
> > increase for those who possess an advanced educational degree, along with
> > the knowledge and skills for advanced practice. I am surprised and it’s an
> > injustice that this is not the case for the sonography field.
> >
> >
> >
> > ~lv
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *Laura Vasquez, Ph.D.(C), RVT (ARDMS), RT (R), (MR), (ARRT)*
> >
> > Program Director, Imaging Sciences Program
> >
> > Associate Chairperson, Department of Medical Physics & Advanced Imaging
> >
> > Chairperson, CHS Diversity Committee
> >
> > Rush University, College of Health Sciences
> > 600 South Paulina Street
> >
> > 764A Armour Academic Center
> >
> > Chicago, Illinois 60612-3244
> > Tel: (312) 942-2842
> >
> >
> > “By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail.”
> >
> > *Benjamin Franklin*
> > <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/b/benjamin_franklin.html>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> > <[log in to unmask]>] *On Behalf Of *jeremy orlikoski
> > *Sent:* Monday, May 2, 2016 9:40 AM
> > *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> > *Subject:* Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
> >
> >
> >
> > Dang! Time to relocate.... Don't come to Austin, TX not much better here
> > either.
> >
> > Jeremy Orlikoski
> >
> >
> > On May 2, 2016, at 9:37 AM, Andrew Bebry <[log in to unmask]
> > <[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> >
> > Steve:
> >
> > I understand that, thanks. I respect your input and experience very much
> > Steve.
> >
> > Here on Long Island however, some of my peer cardiothoracic and vascular
> > surgeons that I have worked with for decades have been semi-suddenly let go
> > for new hires. They were furious! This is disgusting!! Now my immediate
> > area has NOONE to go vein grafts. They just do quick synthetic fem-pops
> > cause its easier and saves time. Three of my local hospitals does NOT have
> > a staff vascular surgeon on standby in these facilities. There is one
> > contracted doc to handle all three and the doc has to rent space from the
> > hospital in order to see patients there. Many of those cases are sent to
> > other linked hospitals. I know certain hospitals are better suited for
> > certain procedures, but why put patients out by transferring them for
> > procedures we routinely used to do here? The local conglomerate
> > administrators and making millions each and cut salaries on employees. Did
> > you know that "our" local system spent $85 million on a NAME CHANGE. Did
> > nothing for patients. Did nothing for employees. Each employee (all 61
> > million) could have gotten a $1 million raise; they would then love to work
> > there; the consensus is a bad attitude toward the system. Say more
> > prayers. Sincerely, Andy
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Steve Knight <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Andrew the ACS credential is a reality for echo and several people have
> > achieved it already. I think the pay for somebody with 18 months of applied
> > technology training at community college (only a portion of which is
> > didactic) is fair to the new hire. Those same people have a very limited
> > role as new grads and have limited career flexibility should they give up
> > or lose their job. Somebody with a baccalaureate degree (or higher) has
> > many more options as far as career path goes. Until a higher level of
> > education is required to practice ultrasound, business will be business and
> > hire accordingly.
> > Steve
> >
> > On May 2, 2016 7:07 AM, "Andrew Bebry" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Jeremy. I believe this topic has come up before. Not likely the
> > credential will be a reality. Facilities do not want to pay more for codes
> > they are already getting paid for. As a matter of FACT, 'facilities' are
> > hiring techs real cheap right out of school and when private offices are
> > acquired, the techs are taking a $10 PER HOUR CUT for the same work. Who
> > would want the additional liability when you are not rewarded for your
> > efforts and training? Gee, sounds like socialization. Sorry for the truth.
> > Just my 'opinion.' Andy Bebry Rvt Rcs
> >
> > On May 2, 2016 9:59 AM, "jeremy orlikoski" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > How would a practitioner's salary compare to a sonographer with 10-15
> > years of experience? Because at 10-15 years we're already maxed out at most
> > facilities.
> >
> >
> > Jeremy Orlikoski
> >
> >
> > On May 2, 2016, at 8:30 AM, Phan, James <[log in to unmask]
> > <[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> >
> > I am in support of the ACS credential. However, The minimum requirement
> > for the sonographer in my opinion should be upgraded to at least an
> > associated degree and to me a bachelor is preferred.
> >
> >
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> >
> >
> > James Phan
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> > <[log in to unmask]>] *On Behalf Of *Terrence Case
> > *Sent:* Monday, May 02, 2016 5:29 AM
> > *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> > *Subject:* Re: Ultrasound Practioner
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve I believe 100% that the basic core of education for the position of
> > ultrasound practitioner, should be at minimum a baccalaureate degree. Terry
> > Case
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > On May 2, 2016, at 1:07 AM, Steve Knight <[log in to unmask]
> > <[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> >
> > Jay thank you for sharing Mr. Horton's letter. I have yet to read the full
> > white paper (the link will only get me as far as the abstract without a
> > paid membership of the ASE.)
> >
> >
> >
> > The blue paper from 2007 contains the following passage: "The ACS
> > profession requires additional curriculum beyond a bachelor’s degree and an
> > internship (with a proposed higher level credential)".
> >
> >
> >
> > The spirit of that passage has not been followed by the CCI. I'm glad that
> > advanced practice is starting to gain some ground but it is still my
> > opinion that the minimum level of education for the CCI ACS credential
> > should be a baccalaureate degree and not a high school diploma.
> >
> >
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve Knight
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Terrence Case <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Excellent review. Thank you. Terry Case
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> > On May 1, 2016, at 2:58 PM, Jay Shafer <[log in to unmask]
> > <[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> >
> > Good afternoon,
> >
> > I am sharing this response from Ken Horton the president of CCI. It is
> > sent on behalf of the CCI leadership team in the hope that it helps in the
> > conversation.
> >
> > Jay Shafer
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In cardiac echo there is not a true "mid-level provider"
> >
> > 1. The Advanced Cardiac Sonographer (ACS) examination was developed by
> > Cardiovascular Credentialing International (CCI) at the request of the
> > American Society of Echocardiography (ASE) and the Committee on
> > Accreditation – Advanced Cardiac Sonographer (CoA-ACS). In 2008 a white
> > paper was published in JASE identifying a need for an advanced level
> > sonographer. I recommend you read this article that describes the role of
> > the ACS as it was originally envisioned.
> >
> > Link to the ASE White Paper
> > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.onlinejase.com_article_S0894-2D7317-2809-2900907-2D9_pdf&d=CwMFaQ&c=XxU8ngzB_WPJXKyiin_6iQ&r=XVp7Tb8BN3KWjNN6H53AT3cHTZses366O0j2JhrKMu4&m=tP1SpeAL1Xl8LxvxPV_vb_T-HRz8Wez104_UGEfXiNw&s=yV02ws1mokP9IBsHolWYp9asn-MX9bE6Lso8xSZBbhw&e=>
> >
> > 2. There is not a true "mid-level provider" in cardiac echo. There have
> > been two blue pages written in JASE that also describe the role of the ACS
> > I encourage you to read these blue pages.
> >
> > Link to blue page Feb 2012 – Michelle Bierig
> > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.onlinejase.com_article_S0894-2D7317-2811-2900965-2D5_pdf&d=CwMFaQ&c=XxU8ngzB_WPJXKyiin_6iQ&r=XVp7Tb8BN3KWjNN6H53AT3cHTZses366O0j2JhrKMu4&m=tP1SpeAL1Xl8LxvxPV_vb_T-HRz8Wez104_UGEfXiNw&s=QUgFhoLZVwH7KQBZovbHxz9KxPVMS2aG6ISI-qs4yZg&e=>
> >
> > Link to blue page May 2015 - Matt Umland
> > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.onlinejase.com_article_S0894-2D7317-2815-2900182-2D0_pdf&d=CwMFaQ&c=XxU8ngzB_WPJXKyiin_6iQ&r=XVp7Tb8BN3KWjNN6H53AT3cHTZses366O0j2JhrKMu4&m=tP1SpeAL1Xl8LxvxPV_vb_T-HRz8Wez104_UGEfXiNw&s=pLXhvyNR92pRDEFQj1HmoBZ20MXWWTiq4PaJJQNov34&e=>
> >
> > 3. The ACS examination is an advanced level examination used to assess an
> > advanced level of knowledge. It goes beyond the entry level concepts that
> > are assessed by the RCS and RDCS examinations. When the ACS exam was
> > developed it was assumed there would be educational programs created and
> > the graduates would take the exam. Experiential pathways were added to
> > bridge the gap until enough educational programs were created to support
> > the exam. At this time there are two (that I am aware of) ACS programs
> > accepting students. Currently all applicants that have taken the exam have
> > used the experiential pathways.
> >
> > 4. The ACS Examination Booklet has the answers to all your questions.
> > The booklet has all the prerequisites (page 5) for taking the examination,
> > the examination matrix )page 7) broke down by percentage (a perfect guide
> > to help you “budget” your study time), and a list of study references (page
> > 7). CCI does not endorse any particular reference over another. Also, the
> > ASE is in the early phases of developing an exam review course. This will
> > take some time and I suspect a product won’t be available for 10-12
> > months. This is a link to the ACS exam booklet that has all this
> > information.
> >
> > Link to ACS Exam Booklet
> > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__cci-2Donline.org_sites_default_files_2015-2520ACS-2520App-2520Book-2DFINAL.pdf&d=CwMFaQ&c=XxU8ngzB_WPJXKyiin_6iQ&r=XVp7Tb8BN3KWjNN6H53AT3cHTZses366O0j2JhrKMu4&m=tP1SpeAL1Xl8LxvxPV_vb_T-HRz8Wez104_UGEfXiNw&s=WN_7cgtHX8RA08T-v6Dg2_vhgEq4AOt4GLHgWT5_tKU&e=>
> >
> > 5. As heath care and reimbursement models change we will see the role of
> > the sonographer change and potentially a broadening of our scope of
> > practice. I applaud the ASE, the Council on Cardiovascular Sonography and
> > the CoA-ACS on their forward thinking. I feel the creation of this pathway
> > is the first step in preparing sonography for these changes.
> >
> > Please feel free to respond to this post or to me directly (
> > [log in to unmask]) with any other questions you have.
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > Ken Horton ACS, RCS, FASE
> > President, Cardiovascular Credentialing International (CCI)
> > Intermountain Heart Institute
> > Intermountain Medical Center
> > Murray, Utah
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 30, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Terrence Case <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Anyone familiar with this term or know anyone using it?
> >
> >
> >
> > Terry Case
> >
> > Sent from iCloud
> >
> > To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Jay Shafer
> >
> >
> >
> > Lead with your heart, follow with your mind and let your spirit soar!!
> >
> > -Shafer
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 17:23:23 +0000
> From: Audrey Fleming <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
>
> Jeremy,
> I would agree to an extent. The idea that a well rounded sonographer is lacking in some way.
> This discussion has been going on for 5, 10, 15 or more years here on Flownet. I know, I have been participating in the discussions!
> I have always advocated for a single education pathway for sonography. We should follow the lead of other medical areas. Physicians must study everything before specializing, nurses must do the same, radiographer etc.Have it at a level either associate's or Bachelor Level. everyone studies the same thing and has the same foundation. Then if someone wants to specialize then have advanced courses for specialization. This could lead to an advanced level certification and practice.
> In this scenario everyone has the same foundation and all the "my job is harder", "what I do has more responsibility", " I had to learn more" would go away. But I have been a proponent of this for 20 years and know it will never happen.
> Audrey
>
> From: jeremy orlikoski <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 5:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
>
> Laura,
> I totally agree with you. If I could reset the clock and start over again I would go through a 4 year program but after 14 years in the field going back to school for 3-4 years to make the same salary as I do now doesn't financially make any sense. But I also love what I do everyday. Seeing patients and interacting with them is what makes me get out of bed every morning (and middle of the night for a r/o DVT in the ER). Management has NO appeal for me and I'm sure for many other people, so the 4 year degree would be wasted on them.
> I always explain to people that what I do is just a trade. Like a plumber or carpenter.... It's a skill that takes both knowledge and physical ability to perform the job. Now we all know there is a HUGE difference between a master plumber and a regular plumber same goes for a general carpenter and a finish carpenter. Both jobs require the minimal training for the base level career but the master plumber and finish carpenter require skills that not every plumber or carpenter will ever posses no matter how much they study and take tests. Sonography is they same way. There are thousands of us sonographer in this country. Most of us are very dedicated to our chosen careers but there are some sonographers who's technical ability and knowledge surpasses the rest. I've had the privilege to work with some of these individuals. In our chosen field there is no way to distinguish one of these individuals from the rest of us because there's no monetary advantage in obtaining any additio!
> nal credentials. If you've never hired a plumber or a carpenter then you don't know there's a HUGE cost difference between a general carpenter and a finish carpenter; with sonography there is no difference in cost to the patient when getting an ultrasound done by an unaccredited, 2 year college sonographer and a sonographer with a Bachelor degree. So the advanced sonographer credential realistically would just let us 'toot our horns' regarding our credentials to others in the sonography field but concisely benefit us or our employers....
> More credentials don't mean that you're a better sonographer then the next person, my personal experience is the more registries you have the less competent you are at the individual modalities. Each ultrasound modality requires an enormous amount of knowledge and physical ability to perform with a high accuracy. Once you 'water down' your training with general, vascular, throw in OB/GYN for good measure too, you now have the entire human body to interrogate from gestation to death.... That's just too much information, in today's medical world, to absorb and regurgitate on demand and require individuals to physically perform all the required examinations.
> Dang... Sorry the train left the tracks on this tread.
> Back to the main topic... What was it again....
>
> Jeremy Orlikoski
> On May 2, 2016, at 10:17 AM, Laura Vasquez <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
> <!--#yiv9514792000 _filtered #yiv9514792000 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9514792000 {font-family:"Cambria Math";panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9514792000 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9514792000 {font-family:"Segoe UI";panose-1:2 11 5 2 4 2 4 2 2 3;} _filtered #yiv9514792000 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv9514792000 {font-family:"Freestyle Script";panose-1:3 8 4 2 3 2 5 11 4 4;} _filtered #yiv9514792000 {font-family:Garamond;panose-1:2 2 4 4 3 3 1 1 8 3;} _filtered #yiv9514792000 {font-family:"Monotype Corsiva";panose-1:3 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1;} _filtered #yiv9514792000 {panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}#yiv9514792000 #yiv9514792000 p.yiv9514792000MsoNormal, #yiv9514792000 li.yiv9514792000MsoNormal, #yiv9514792000 div.yiv9514792000MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman", serif;}#yiv9514792000 a:link, #yiv!
> 9514792000 span.yiv9514792000MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9514792000 a:visited, #yiv9514792000 span.yiv9514792000MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv9514792000 p {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman", serif;}#yiv9514792000 pre {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";}#yiv9514792000 span.yiv9514792000hoenzb {}#yiv9514792000 span.yiv9514792000HTMLPreformattedChar {font-family:Consolas;}#yiv9514792000 span.yiv9514792000EmailStyle21 {font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;color:#1F497D;}#yiv9514792000 .yiv9514792000MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv9514792000 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv9514792000 div.yiv9514792000WordSection1 {}-->Tuition cost should be justified by receiving the highest level and quality of the education and this endeavor should be looked as an investment. What you will make your first year out of school sh!
> ould surpass the total tuition cost. Typically, that is how you should
> approach any educational investment. Regardless of the sources that have given you their perspective, I think you have to take people's opinions "with a grain of salt"—including mine.Some will tell you that you only need to pursue a program that would allow you to take the registry once completed. I think it's imperative to accomplish college credits for any educational program you pursue. The reason being, you will be able to take those credits with you to another institution and accomplish the higher degree. A BS degree in imaging science is a great thing to have for all of the career paths and for the management and upward mobility potential thatmight limit a tech with an AS degree alone- I say might because I am privileged to work with some phenomenal elite sonographers/MRI & CT technologists who came from hospital based programs. Bottom line, as in any field, the more education you have the more qualified you are for a given position. Although, it is not th!
> e only consideration. Attention should be paid to: management training and experience, in addition to time spent functioning within the multitude of capacities expected of our career field. I would highly recommend a BS degree. The job market is tough out there and you will be more marketable with a BS degree. Advisory focuses on MRI &CT Medicare program policies. Policies may apply to selected private payers in addressing coding, coverage, and payment for diagnostic CT & MRI and Interventional procedures.Fortunately, according to American Society of Radiologic Technologists (ASRT), salaries do increase for those who possess an advanced educational degree, along with the knowledge and skills for advanced practice. I am surprised and it’s an injustice that this is not the case for the sonography field. ~lv Laura Vasquez, Ph.D.(C), RVT (ARDMS), RT (R), (MR), (ARRT) Program Director, Imaging Sciences Program Associate Chairperson, Department of !
> Medical Physics & Advanced Imaging Chairperson, CHS Diversity Committ
> ee Rush University, College of Health Sciences
> 600 South Paulina Street 764A Armour Academic Center Chicago, Illinois 60612-3244
> Tel: (312) 942-2842
>
> “By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail.” Benjamin Franklin From: UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of jeremy orlikoski
> Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 9:40 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner Dang! Time to relocate.... Don't come to Austin, TX not much better here either.
>
> Jeremy Orlikoski
> On May 2, 2016, at 9:37 AM, Andrew Bebry <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Steve: I understand that, thanks. I respect your input and experience very much Steve. Here on Long Island however, some of my peer cardiothoracic and vascular surgeons that I have worked with for decades have been semi-suddenly let go for new hires. They were furious! This is disgusting!! Now my immediate area has NOONE to go vein grafts. They just do quick synthetic fem-pops cause its easier and saves time. Three of my local hospitals does NOT have a staff vascular surgeon on standby in these facilities. There is one contracted doc to handle all three and the doc has to rent space from the hospital in order to see patients there. Many of those cases are sent to other linked hospitals. I know certain hospitals are better suited for certain procedures, but why put patients out by transferring them for procedures we routinely used to do here? The local conglomerate administrators and making millions each and cut salaries on employees. Did you know that "ou!
> r" local system spent $85 million on a NAME CHANGE. Did nothing for patients. Did nothing for employees. Each employee (all 61 million) could have gotten a $1 million raise; they would then love to work there; the consensus is a bad attitude toward the system. Say more prayers. Sincerely, Andy On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Steve Knight <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Andrew the ACS credential is a reality for echo and several people have achieved it already. I think the pay for somebody with 18 months of applied technology training at community college (only a portion of which is didactic) is fair to the new hire. Those same people have a very limited role as new grads and have limited career flexibility should they give up or lose their job. Somebody with a baccalaureate degree (or higher) has many more options as far as career path goes. Until a higher level of education is required to practice ultrasound, business will be business and hire accordingly.
> Steve On May 2, 2016 7:07 AM, "Andrew Bebry" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Jeremy. I believe this topic has come up before. Not likely the credential will be a reality. Facilities do not want to pay more for codes they are already getting paid for. As a matter of FACT, 'facilities' are hiring techs real cheap right out of school and when private offices are acquired, the techs are taking a $10 PER HOUR CUT for the same work. Who would want the additional liability when you are not rewarded for your efforts and training? Gee, sounds like socialization. Sorry for the truth. Just my 'opinion.' Andy Bebry Rvt Rcs On May 2, 2016 9:59 AM, "jeremy orlikoski" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> How would a practitioner's salary compare to a sonographer with 10-15 years of experience? Because at 10-15 years we're already maxed out at most facilities.
> Jeremy Orlikoski
> On May 2, 2016, at 8:30 AM, Phan, James <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> I am in support of the ACS credential. However, The minimum requirement for the sonographer in my opinion should be upgraded to at least an associated degree and to me a bachelor is preferred. Respectfully, James Phan From: UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Terrence Case
> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2016 5:29 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Ultrasound Practioner Steve I believe 100% that the basic core of education for the position of ultrasound practitioner, should be at minimum a baccalaureate degree. Terry Case
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> On May 2, 2016, at 1:07 AM, Steve Knight <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Jay thank you for sharing Mr. Horton's letter. I have yet to read the full white paper (the link will only get me as far as the abstract without a paid membership of the ASE.) The blue paper from 2007 contains the following passage: "The ACS profession requires additional curriculum beyond a bachelor’s degree and an internship (with a proposed higher level credential)". The spirit of that passage has not been followed by the CCI. I'm glad that advanced practice is starting to gain some ground but it is still my opinion that the minimum level of education for the CCI ACS credential should be a baccalaureate degree and not a high school diploma. Respectfully, Steve Knight On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Terrence Case <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Excellent review. Thank you. Terry Case
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> On May 1, 2016, at 2:58 PM, Jay Shafer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Good afternoon, I am sharing this response from Ken Horton the president of CCI. It is sent on behalf of the CCI leadership team in the hope that it helps in the conversation. Jay Shafer In cardiac echo there is not a true "mid-level provider" 1. The Advanced Cardiac Sonographer (ACS) examination was developed by Cardiovascular Credentialing International (CCI) at the request of the American Society of Echocardiography (ASE) and the Committee on Accreditation – Advanced Cardiac Sonographer (CoA-ACS). In 2008 a white paper was published in JASE identifying a need for an advanced level sonographer. I recommend you read this article that describes the role of the ACS as it was originally envisioned. Link to the ASE White Paper 2. There is not a true "mid-level provider" in cardiac echo. There have been two blue pages written in JASE that also describe the role of the ACS I encourage you to read these blue pages. Link to blue page Feb 2012 – Michelle Bi!
> erig Link to blue page May 2015 - Matt Umland 3. The ACS examination is an advanced level examination used to assess an advanced level of knowledge. It goes beyond the entry level concepts that are assessed by the RCS and RDCS examinations. When the ACS exam was developed it was assumed there would be educational programs created and the graduates would take the exam. Experiential pathways were added to bridge the gap until enough educational programs were created to support the exam. At this time there are two (that I am aware of) ACS programs accepting students. Currently all applicants that have taken the exam have used the experiential pathways. 4. The ACS Examination Booklet has the answers to all your questions. The booklet has all the prerequisites (page 5) for taking the examination, the examination matrix )page 7) broke down by percentage (a perfect guide to help you “budget” your study time), and a list of study references (page 7). CCI doe!
> s not endorse any particular reference over another. Also, the ASE is
> in the early phases of developing an exam review course. This will take some time and I suspect a product won’t be available for 10-12 months. This is a link to the ACS exam booklet that has all this information. Link to ACS Exam Booklet 5. As heath care and reimbursement models change we will see the role of the sonographer change and potentially a broadening of our scope of practice. I applaud the ASE, the Council on Cardiovascular Sonography and the CoA-ACS on their forward thinking. I feel the creation of this pathway is the first step in preparing sonography for these changes. Please feel free to respond to this post or to me directly ([log in to unmask]) with any other questions you have. ------------------------------
> Ken Horton ACS, RCS, FASE
> President, Cardiovascular Credentialing International (CCI)
> Intermountain Heart Institute
> Intermountain Medical Center
> Murray, Utah On Sat, Apr 30, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Terrence Case <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Anyone familiar with this term or know anyone using it? Terry Case Sent from iCloud To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
>
>
> -- Jay Shafer Lead with your heart, follow with your mind and let your spirit soar!! -Shafer To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
> To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
> To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
> To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may contain privileged and confidential information and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination or copying of this e-mail or any of its attachment(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sending individual or entity by e-mail and permanently delete the original e-mail and attachment(s) from your computer system. Thank you for your cooperation. To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
> To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
> To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
> To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
> To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
> To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
> To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
>
>
> To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:
> http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 11:36:54 -0700
> From: jeremy orlikoski <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
>
> Audrey,
> I've never heard of that idea before and I think it's brilliant (which means it will never come to be..). I went to a school that taught us ABD, OB and vascular. Not enough time was given to any one modality to allow us to be a proficient sonographer. It put all the responsibility on the employer to finish our training. I know I could fumble my way through an OB exam from the limited training that I received and have some radiologist read it but I professionally and ethically would not perform the examination because I know all things that I could easily miss. Ultrasound is a very important diagnostic tool. Facilities around the country have forgotten WHY we use this technology and WHY we need competent individuals performing these examinations. My local hospital HR person stopped by my surgeons office the other day because my surgeon has been complaining about how inaccurate the hospitals sonographers are when doing vascular examinations. The HR person was asking me why the!
> individuals were so inaccurate when they were "RVT" (the hospital radiology department is a general/vascular department). The HR person could not understand why there's no proficiency examination to become RVT. I explained to them that it's just a written test that you can go to a seminar for a weekend, where they give you all the answers to test, and pass the examination without ever performing an examination (I know the ARDMS examination requires someone to sign off for each individual taking the examination but I've personally witnessed individuals who have never scanned a patient on their own taking and passing the RVT examination).
> RVT used to mean "Advanced Sonographer". It used to be a statement that the individual knew the cardiovascular system and could interrogate the body and accurately diagnosis a circulatory obstruction. Now it means "Doppler Tech" for r/o DVT in the ER so the facility doesn't loss the medicare reimbursements. Our field of employment is unfortunately regressing throughout most the country. There are fewer and fewer dedicated vascular labs and with the cuts to reimbursements vascular surgeons aren't starting new practices, which all leads to fewer needs for a vascular sonographer. Vein clinics have been the only area of growth for jobs in our profession for the last couple years (I don't mind doing veins now and then but I couldn't do reflux testing all day every day... Doing 1 test all day every day, Even a lowly echo tech gets to do a stress test now and then. :) ).
>
>
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 17:23:23 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Jeremy,
> I would agree to an extent. The idea that a well rounded sonographer is lacking in some way.
> This discussion has been going on for 5, 10, 15 or more years here on Flownet. I know, I have been participating in the discussions!
> I have always advocated for a single education pathway for sonography. We should follow the lead of other medical areas. Physicians must study everything before specializing, nurses must do the same, radiographer etc.Have it at a level either associate's or Bachelor Level. everyone studies the same thing and has the same foundation. Then if someone wants to specialize then have advanced courses for specialization. This could lead to an advanced level certification and practice.
> In this scenario everyone has the same foundation and all the "my job is harder", "what I do has more responsibility", " I had to learn more" would go away. But I have been a proponent of this for 20 years and know it will never happen.
> Audrey
>
> From: jeremy orlikoski <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 5:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
>
> Laura,
> I totally agree with you. If I could reset the clock and start over again I would go through a 4 year program but after 14 years in the field going back to school for 3-4 years to make the same salary as I do now doesn't financially make any sense. But I also love what I do everyday. Seeing patients and interacting with them is what makes me get out of bed every morning (and middle of the night for a r/o DVT in the ER). Management has NO appeal for me and I'm sure for many other people, so the 4 year degree would be wasted on them.
> I always explain to people that what I do is just a trade. Like a plumber or carpenter.... It's a skill that takes both knowledge and physical ability to perform the job. Now we all know there is a HUGE difference between a master plumber and a regular plumber same goes for a general carpenter and a finish carpenter. Both jobs require the minimal training for the base level career but the master plumber and finish carpenter require skills that not every plumber or carpenter will ever posses no matter how much they study and take tests. Sonography is they same way. There are thousands of us sonographer in this country. Most of us are very dedicated to our chosen careers but there are some sonographers who's technical ability and knowledge surpasses the rest. I've had the privilege to work with some of these individuals. In our chosen field there is no way to distinguish one of these individuals from the rest of us because there's no monetary advantage in obtaining any additio!
> nal credentials. If you've never hired a plumber or a carpenter then you don't know there's a HUGE cost difference between a general carpenter and a finish carpenter; with sonography there is no difference in cost to the patient when getting an ultrasound done by an unaccredited, 2 year college sonographer and a sonographer with a Bachelor degree. So the advanced sonographer credential realistically would just let us 'toot our horns' regarding our credentials to others in the sonography field but concisely benefit us or our employers....
> More credentials don't mean that you're a better sonographer then the next person, my personal experience is the more registries you have the less competent you are at the individual modalities. Each ultrasound modality requires an enormous amount of knowledge and physical ability to perform with a high accuracy. Once you 'water down' your training with general, vascular, throw in OB/GYN for good measure too, you now have the entire human body to interrogate from gestation to death.... That's just too much information, in today's medical world, to absorb and regurgitate on demand and require individuals to physically perform all the required examinations.
> Dang... Sorry the train left the tracks on this tread.
> Back to the main topic... What was it again....
>
> Jeremy Orlikoski
> On May 2, 2016, at 10:17 AM, Laura Vasquez <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Tuition cost should be justified by receiving the highest level and quality of the education and this endeavor should be looked as an investment. What you will make your first year out of school
> should surpass the total tuition cost. Typically, that is how you should approach any educational investment.
>
> Regardless of the sources that have given you their perspective, I think you have to take people's opinions "with a grain of salt"—including mine.
> Some will tell you that you only need to pursue a program that would allow you to take the registry once completed. I think it's imperative to accomplish college credits for any educational program you pursue.
> The reason being, you will be able to take those credits with you to another institution and accomplish the higher degree.
>
>
> A BS degree in imaging science is a great thing to have for all of the career paths and for the management and upward mobility potential that
> might limit a tech with an AS degree alone- I say might because I am privileged to work with some phenomenal elite sonographers/MRI & CT technologists who came from hospital based programs. Bottom line, as in any field, the more
> education you have the more qualified you are for a given position. Although, it is not the only consideration. Attention should be paid to: management training and experience, in addition to time spent functioning within the multitude of capacities expected
> of our career field. I would highly recommend a BS degree. The job market is tough out there and you will be more marketable with a BS degree.
>
> Advisory focuses on MRI &CT Medicare program policies. Policies may apply to selected private payers in addressing coding,
> coverage, and payment for diagnostic CT & MRI and Interventional procedures.
> Fortunately, according to American Society of Radiologic Technologists (ASRT), salaries do increase for those who possess an advanced educational degree, along with the knowledge and skills for
> advanced practice. I am surprised and it’s an injustice that this is not the case for the sonography field.
>
>
> ~lv
>
>
>
> Laura Vasquez, Ph.D.(C), RVT (ARDMS), RT (R), (MR), (ARRT)
> Program Director, Imaging Sciences Program
> Associate Chairperson, Department of Medical Physics & Advanced Imaging
> Chairperson, CHS Diversity Committee
> Rush University, College of Health Sciences
>
> 600 South Paulina Street
> 764A Armour Academic Center
> Chicago, Illinois 60612-3244
>
> Tel: (312) 942-2842
>
>
>
>
> “By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail.”
> Benjamin Franklin
>
>
>
>
>
> From: UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> On Behalf Of jeremy orlikoski
>
> Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 9:40 AM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: Ultrasound PR actioner
>
>
>
>
> Dang! Time to relocate.... Don't come to Austin, TX not much better here either.
>
>
>
> Jeremy Orlikoski
>
>
>
>
> On May 2, 2016, at 9:37 AM, Andrew Bebry <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Steve:
>
> I understand that, thanks. I respect your input and experience very much Steve.
>
>
> Here on Long Island however, some of my peer cardiothoracic and vascular surgeons that I have worked with for decades have been semi-suddenly let go for new hires. They were furious! This is disgusting!! Now my immediate area has NOONE
> to go vein grafts. They just do quick synthetic fem-pops cause its easier and saves time. Three of my local hospitals does NOT have a staff vascular surgeon on standby in these facilities. There is one contracted doc to handle all three and the doc has
> to rent space from the hospital in order to see patients there. Many of those cases are sent to other linked hospitals. I know certain hospitals are better suited for certain procedures, but why put patients out by transferring them for procedures we routinely
> used to do here? The local conglomerate administrators and making millions each and cut salaries on employees. Did you know that "our" local system spent $85 million on a NAME CHANGE. Did nothing for patients. Did nothing for employees. Each employee (all
> 61 million) could have gotten a $1 million raise; they would then love to work there; the consensus is a bad attitude toward the system. Say more prayers. Sincerely, Andy
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Steve Knight <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Andrew the ACS credential is a reality for echo and several people have achieved it already. I think the pay for somebody with 18 months of applied technology training at community college (only a portion of which is didactic) is fair to the new hire. Those
> same people have a very limited role as new grads and have limited career flexibility should they give up or lose their job. Somebody with a baccalaureate degree (or higher) has many more options as far as career path goes. Until a higher level of education
> is required to practice ultrasound, business will be business and hire accordingly.
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> On May 2, 2016 7:07 AM, "Andrew Bebry" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Jeremy. I believe this topic has come up before. Not likely the credential will be a reality. Facilities do not want to pay more for codes they are already getting paid for. As a matter of FACT, 'facilities' are hiring techs real cheap right out of school
> and when private offices are acquired, the techs are taking a $10 PER HOUR CUT for the same work. Who would want the additional liability when you are not rewarded for your efforts and training? Gee, sounds like socialization. Sorry for the truth. Just my
> 'opinion.' Andy Bebry Rvt Rcs
>
> On May 2, 2016 9:59 AM, "jeremy orlikoski" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
>
> How would a practitioner's salary compare to a sonographer with 10-15 years of experience? Because at 10-15 years we're already maxed out at most facilities.
>
>
>
>
> Jeremy Orlikoski
>
>
>
>
> On May 2, 2016, at 8:30 AM, Phan, James <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I am in support of the ACS credential. However, The minimum requirement for the sonographer in my opinion
> should be upgraded to at least an associated degree and to me a bachelor is preferred.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> James Phan
>
>
>
>
> From: UVM Flownet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> On Behalf Of Terrence Case
>
> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2016 5:29 AM
>
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: Ultrasound Practioner
>
>
>
>
> Steve I believe 100% that the basic core of education for the position of ultrasound practitioner, should be at minimum a baccalaureate degree. Terry Case
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
>
> On May 2, 2016, at 1:07 AM, Steve Knight <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Jay thank you for sharing Mr. Horton's letter. I have yet to read the full white paper (the link will only get me as far as the abstract without a paid membership of the ASE.)
>
>
>
>
> The blue paper from 2007 contains the following passage: "The ACS profession requires additional curriculum beyond a bachelor’s degree and an internship (with a proposed higher
> level credential)".
>
>
>
>
>
> The spirit of that passage has not been followed by the CCI. I'm glad that advanced practice is starting to gain some ground but it is still my opinion that the minimum level of
> education for the CCI ACS credential should be a baccalaureate degree and not a high school diploma.
>
>
>
>
>
> Respectfully,
>
>
>
>
>
> Steve Knight
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Terrence Case <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
>
> Excellent review. Thank you. Terry Case
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On May 1, 2016, at 2:58 PM, Jay Shafer <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Good afternoon,
> I am sharing this response from Ken Horton the president of CCI. It is sent on behalf of the CCI leadership team in the hope that
> it helps in the conversation.
> Jay Shafer
>
>
> In cardiac echo there is not a true "mid-level provider"
> 1. The Advanced Cardiac Sonographer (ACS) examination was developed by Cardiovascular Credentialing International (CCI) at the request
> of the American Society of Echocardiography (ASE) and the Committee on Accreditation – Advanced Cardiac Sonographer (CoA-ACS). In 2008 a white paper was published in JASE identifying a need for an advanced level sonographer. I recommend you read this article
> that describes the role of the ACS as it was originally envisioned.
> Link
> to the ASE White Paper
> 2. There is not a true "mid-level provider" in cardiac echo. There have been two blue pages written in JASE that also describe
> the role of the ACS I encourage you to read these blue pages.
> Link
> to blue page Feb 2012 – Michelle Bierig
> Link
> to blue page May 2015 - Matt Umland
> 3. The ACS examination is an advanced level examination used to assess an advanced level of knowledge. It goes beyond the entry
> level concepts that are assessed by the RCS and RDCS examinations. When the ACS exam was developed it was assumed there would be educational programs created and the graduates would take the exam. Experiential pathways were added to bridge the gap until
> enough educational programs were created to support the exam. At this time there are two (that I am aware of) ACS programs accepting students. Currently all applicants that have taken the exam have used the experiential pathways.
> 4. The ACS Examination Booklet has the answers to all your questions. The booklet has all the prerequisites (page 5) for taking
> the examination, the examination matrix )page 7) broke down by percentage (a perfect guide to help you “budget” your study time), and a list of study references (page 7). CCI does not endorse any particular reference over another. Also, the ASE is in the
> early phases of developing an exam review course. This will take some time and I suspect a product won’t be available for 10-12 months. This is a link to the ACS exam booklet that has all this information.
> Link
> to ACS Exam Booklet
> 5. As heath care and reimbursement models change we will see the role of the sonographer change and potentially a broadening of our
> scope of practice. I applaud the ASE, the Council on Cardiovascular Sonography and the CoA-ACS on their forward thinking. I feel the creation of this pathway is the first step in preparing sonography for these changes.
> Please feel free to respond to this post or to me directly ([log in to unmask])
> with any other questions you have.
> -----------------------------
>
> Ken Horton ACS, RCS, FASE
>
> President, Cardiovascular Credentialing International (CCI)
>
> Intermountain Heart Institute
>
> Intermountain Medical Center
>
> Murray, Utah
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 30, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Terrence Case <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
>
> Anyone familiar with this term or know anyone using it?
>
>
>
>
>
> Terry Case
>
>
> Sent from iCloud
>
>
> To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:
>
> http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Jay Shafer
>
>
>
>
> Lead with your heart, follow with your mind and let your spirit soar!!
> -Shafer
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:
>
> http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:
>
> http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:
>
> http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
>
>
> To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:
>
> http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
>
> This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may contain privileged and confidential information and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible
> for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination or copying of this e-mail or any of its attachment(s) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sending
> individual or entity by e-mail and permanently delete the original e-mail and attachment(s) from your computer system. Thank you for your cooperation.
> To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:
>
> http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
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> To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:
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> Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 16:32:35 -0400
> From: Ann Marie Kupinski <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: integration of data
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I would like to ask how people integrate indirect and direct testing data
> into their arterial reports. For example, a patient has normal resting and
> post-exercise ABIs (no calcification) but on duplex you can clearly see a
> stenosis in the popliteal artery with a doubling in PSV. The ultrasound
> data thus indicates a greater than 50% stenosis. I think we have all seen
> times when the physiologic data does not match the ultrasound data. A good
> friend of mine tells me he tries hard to write his reports so that he avoids
> a phone call from a referring physician.
>
>
>
> I am wondering if any of you would share how you would report these or other
> similar findings
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Ann Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 20:50:41 +0000
> From: Audrey Fleming <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: integration of data
>
> I would write something along the lines of:
> Describe the duplex findings of the stenosis and say the PSV suggest an aproximate 50% stenosis by duplex criteria.
> Then describe the physiologic finding with an interpretation - Physiologic findings are highly suggestive of a well established collateral pathway providing normal resting and post exercise perfusion to the distal limb. Correlate clinically with physical findings and patient complaint/history.
> This also depends on if the patient actually performs the exercise testing to an appropriate level of stress exercise.
> Audrey
>
> From: Ann Marie Kupinski <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 9:32 PM
> Subject: integration of data
>
> <!--#yiv0321294660 _filtered #yiv0321294660 {font-family:"Cambria Math";panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv0321294660 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv0321294660 #yiv0321294660 p.yiv0321294660MsoNormal, #yiv0321294660 li.yiv0321294660MsoNormal, #yiv0321294660 div.yiv0321294660MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;}#yiv0321294660 a:link, #yiv0321294660 span.yiv0321294660MsoHyperlink {color:#0563C1;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0321294660 a:visited, #yiv0321294660 span.yiv0321294660MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:#954F72;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv0321294660 span.yiv0321294660EmailStyle17 {font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;color:windowtext;}#yiv0321294660 .yiv0321294660MsoChpDefault {font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif;} _filtered #yiv0321294660 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv0321294660 div.yiv0321294660WordSection1 {}-->Hi, I would like to ask how people integrate indirect and dir!
> ect testing data into their arterial reports. For example, a patient has normal resting and post-exercise ABIs (no calcification) but on duplex you can clearly see a stenosis in the popliteal artery with a doubling in PSV. The ultrasound data thus indicates a greater than 50% stenosis. I think we have all seen times when the physiologic data does not match the ultrasound data. A good friend of mine tells me he tries hard to write his reports so that he avoids a phone call from a referring physician. I am wondering if any of you would share how you would report these or other similar findings ThanksAnn Marie To unsubscribe or search other topics on UVM Flownet link to:http://list.uvm.edu/archives/uvmflownet.html
>
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> ------------------------------
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> End of UVMFLOWNET Digest - 2 May 2016 (#2016-72)
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