Hi all,

Well, I for one value this old listserve greatly, even when (often!) the other members here disagree with me. It's my "go-to" place for information re: Science and its intersection with radical movements.

I think some of the old guard was much too dogmatic in driving "alternative" thinking people off this list -- and there have been quite a few driven away. The posts and even the disputes I learn about here help to inform my work, make me realize I can't be glib (as I sometimes am) in generalizing about stuff.

Plus, when I need scientific advice about one project or another, I can usually receive good advice from folks on this list.

So I'd hate to see it shut down or censored.

By the way, Maggie Zhou is trained in science, she's not just a half-assed activist like me spouting things here and there without thought. Delete or engage, but what its it about this "urge to purge" that so permeates the left? I even read (and was infuriated by) Balter's posts a while back -- there was and is always a kernel of some semblance of truth buried in those posts -- and everyone else's -- that I found to be useful. Same with Michael Goldhaber's.

I want and need a list that looks at scientific issues and controversies, and where there are experts who can help out in our organizing work, which is not the purpose of the other list, as helpful as that might be in piecing some semblance of organization together.

By the way, I'm currently working on a book (with a real publisher!) on glyphosate, pesticides and politics, tentatively called "The Politix of Pesticides" though that might change. Some folks on this list are contributors to it!

I've had to personally slow down for the last 8 weeks as I'm slowly recovering from health issues -- disoriented, eyes going in different directions, unable to focus, dizzy .... and, worst of all, memory loss (though slowly returning) ... some doctors say I had a stroke, others say it was shortage of oxygen to brain due to blood pressure meds slowing down heartbeat too much, others (me!) say it was a concussion. There are one or two more theories, but I'm sick of the narrow compartmentalization of knowledge by the different specialists. This has been going on for 2 months now as of today (yahoo!). I did visit with Dr. Majid Ali last week, who had some helpful insights, but mostly it's been acupuncture and chiropractor who've helped enormously. And Martha Herbert has had some great suggestions that I still have to follow up on.

Just reaching out, and urging a more open-minded approach, despite frustrations ...

Much love,


-----Original Message-----
From: SftP <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Nov 8, 2017 1:38 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: CIA Poisoned French Town with LSD in Mind Control Experiment in 1951

Hi Kamran and others,

Yes - as Sigrid noted, this is the “legacy” listserv.

We created the [log in to unmask] one for the organizing effort, although people do post legitimate news on there as well which sometimes feed into our social media content.

I’m pretty sure that Larry Romsted manages this listserv these days. A while back there was discussion of archiving this one since the organizing effort has transitioned elsewhere. I’m fine with archiving this one, shutting it down, and migrating people who are interested in organizing to the other one. There’s some good content and discussion in the early years of this listserv, but it has degenerated into conspiracy theory posting mostly these days - occasionally amusing but also useless and potentially confusing.


Thanks and solidarity,
Ben Allen

On Nov 8, 2017, 1:19 PM -0500, Sigrid Schmalzer <[log in to unmask]>, wrote:

Hi! These are different lists. The revitalization project is separate, and that email list is much more focused on movement building rather than sharing news stories, etc. I don't think Ben and others from the revitalization project are monitoring this list, but I could be wrong.


On 11/08/2017 12:11 PM, Kamran Nayeri wrote:
[log in to unmask]">
No, Michael. That was a few years ago when I was after you step aside.  There was a collective of a few of us that served as monitors.  I stepped off but the others remained. All old timers.  As the revitalization got underway thanks to Ben Allen and other younger SftP younger leadership I assumed they have taken responsibility for this list.  So, I hope Ben and others would speak up.  I know we are now using an alternative method of communication as well.  So, the question of whether this list should remain or merged with the new method of communication and what its purpose would be and whether and how it is monitored are all questions to revisit. Certainly, the present quandary requires attention and care.

Warm regards,


On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 8:58 AM, Michael H Goldhaber <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
 Aren't you still one of the monitors?


Sent from my iPad

On Nov 8, 2017, at 8:30 AM, Kamran Nayeri <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Does this list have a monitor? Are there any rules governing it activity?  

Maggie uses this list and others to advance her own political activity not the stated goals of Science for the People. Here it is in her own words:

"I send these info to various lists so that people can use it as they see fit to educate those majority of Americans - when Americans realize what evil the elites have been doing to their own western populations, I believe they could more easily grasp the nature of capitalist regimes."

Of course, we are all some kind of left-leaning individuals to be on this list and each has our own view about how "to educate those majority of Americans." If we all use this (and in Maggie's case "other lists") then SftP list becomes a hodge-podge of posts with no direction to advance any shared interest that has brought us together.  

I urge the current leadership of SftP take this matter into consideration and offer simple directions and a minimal monitoring of this list.

Thank you.


On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 7:54 AM, Maggie Zhou <0000008533af39d9-dmarc-[log in to unmask]> wrote:
First to Carrol, "The CIA is of course one large war crime, and  one need not look into hidden places to establish that."  What you're not understanding is that most Americans don't see it that way, in fact most scientists I know (I used to be one of them) who are well educated otherwise, don't know the nature of capitalism, imperialism, and the naked truth of CIA and it's bloody history of crimes against humanity.

Perhaps you're long steeped in anti-imperialist movements like many others on leftist list, but you're out of touch with the mentality of most ordinary Americans, a majority of them still think the US wage wars to spread freedom & democracy, whether they think it's "worth it" is another matter.  They think CIA may have used some shady tactics (which is even glorified in spy movies like James Bond) but it was all to serve the larger good.

That's why the majority of Americans are NOT joining our "movements", despite decades of building such "movements".  If you think otherwise you're deluding yourself.

I send these info to various lists so that people can use it as they see fit to educate those majority of Americans - when Americans realize what evil the elites have been doing to their own western populations, I believe they could more easily grasp the nature of capitalist regimes.

And to Kamran, I know very well what CIA did to Iran in 1953, but I've been told to stick to something relevant to Science for the People, and this article has to do with LSD and mind control, which to me is relevant.

I urge you not to jump every time when I send any relevant info, to lecture and shut me up.  Hit delete if you don't want to read.


On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 6:02 AM, SCIENCE-FOR-THE-PEOPLE automatic digest system <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Maggie Zhou


You seem to take it light heartedly.  "At least five people died, dozens were interned in asylums and hundreds afflicted" in that French town, according to Telegraph article.  Not sure if you would like that in your well.


This shows vividly the political weakness of "conspiricism." The CIA is of course one large war crime, and  one need not look into hidden places to establish that. It's obvious from the front pages of the New York Times. Chicken-shit crimes like that you are laboriously uncovering merely act to conceal the big and open crimes.  Movements opposing U.S. imperialism and the massive war crimes of the last 70 years do not depend on such torturous "proof." You need to study what brings people to the streets. It is _not_ long proofs of particular (and often cloudy) acts; that fails even if the claims are true. A focus on conspiracy can tear a local anti-war group apat, thus aidind u.s. war making.


Now that you are focused on the CIA, could you shed some light on its current secret mission in Afghanistan?  In 1953, CIA overthrew the democratically elected Mossadegh government in Iran which resulted in 25 years of U.S.-backed dictatorship thousands were executed and many more were jailed and tortured during that time. Yes, the CIA is BAD. But what do these have to do with building Science for the People? 

Kamran Nayeri

Kamran Nayeri

Kamran Nayeri

Sigrid Schmalzer
Professor, History Department
University of Massachusetts Amherst

Red Revolution, Green Revolution: Scientific Farming in Socialist China (University of Chicago Press, 2016)

Forthcoming from UMass Press in January, 2018: Science for the People: Documents from America's Movement of Radical Scientists

Forthcoming from Tilbury House Publishers in February, 2018: Moth and Wasp, Soil and Ocean: Remembering Chinese Scientist Pu Zhelong (picture book)

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