You're right, of course, Zach. But that's one of those things that's on the impressionistic side, depending on the angle and whether it just ate, not to mention having just fluffed its feathers out. But I should have said "bulky" rather than "chesty." Thanks for the correction! Jane (Shoreham) On 10/16/2018 11:37 AM, zach schwartz-weinstein wrote: > Just an additional note - the “chesty” look is actually a fieldmark for > sharp-shinned over cooper’s. Cooper’s hawks have a more even, tubular > shape. Sharp-shinned hawks are barrel-chested and top-heavy. > > ZSW > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 9:44 AM Jane Stein <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> You bet, Cynthia! Very clear tail feather length and fat legs. That >> flat look of the head in the last photo with its crest slightly raised >> is also a good ID factor when it appears. Sharpies do not have that. >> >> Sharpie versus Coop is often a difficult call, but sticking to the >> basics helps to clear up most questions. In soaring flight way up over >> your head, as hawkwatchers often see them, none of those indicators can >> usually be seen, so it's often a lot harder. >> >> Jane >> (Shoreham) >> >> On 10/16/2018 9:26 AM, Cynthia Crawford wrote: >>> On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 21:45:07 -0400, Jane Stein <[log in to unmask]> >> wrote: >>> >>>> Heh! Sharpie vs Cooper is the single most difficult ID among raptor >>>> enthusiasts, so no shame if you got it wrong-- if you did! Actual >>>> raptor experts might have a different take than Zach and I do. >>>> Experienced hawkwatchers have been known to literally come to blows over >>>> the ID. But... I doubt it. I'm an enthusiast of many years, not an >>>> actual expert! >>>> >>>> I wouldn't rely on the "bug-eyed" look since it depends so much on the >>>> angle of the bird and the picture and the familiarity of the observer >>>> with these guys. But the tail feather length in such a clear pose as >>>> you got (not always the case in photos in the field!) is truly >>>> definitive, as is the thickness of the legs, when you can see them. >>>> Banders have wildly different bands for Coops and Sharpies, and once I >>>> saw those, I was totally convinced of the dramatic difference between >>>> the 2 species, not just variation from individual to individual. Pretty >>>> much everything else is more impressionistic, so not really reliable for >>>> ID, only as contributing factors that can very easily lead the observer >>>> astray. >>>> >>>> One other factor to consider is that although there are more Coops >>>> around than there used to be, Sharpies still outnumber them by quite a >>>> bit. So Sharpie is the default ID for a smallish Accipeter, and an ID of >>>> Cooper's needs more confirmation from observable characteristics like >>>> leg size and tail feather lengths. >>>> >>>> Resist the ebird police! But do let us know here if you get interesting >>>> feedback, positive or negative, OK? >>>> >>>> Jane >>>> (Shoreham) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 10/15/2018 8:25 PM, Cynthia Crawford wrote: >>>>> On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 09:01:54 -0400, Jane Stein <[log in to unmask]> >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Agreed, Zach. The tail feathers, despite the broad white tips, are >> the >>>>>> main tip-off-- all the same length. In this tail position, Coop's has >>>>>> noticeably shorter outer tail feathers. The relatively small, >> bug-eyed >>>>>> head is another. Chest streaking is harder to judge, for me anyway, >>>>>> because it's not that consistent from bird to bird. >>>>>> >>>>>> It does look large and chesty for a Sharpie, but that may be the lack >> of >>>>>> context from this close, since it's impossible to tell from the photos >>>>>> how large those branches and trunks are. And a big female Sharpies >> can >>>>>> be pretty close to male Coop's in size. Lastly, I'd add this bird's >>>>>> rather thin, stick-like legs, although there's only a glimpse of them >> in >>>>>> the one pic that shows the bird lifting off from its branch, as >>>>>> contrasted with the Coop's thick, sturdy-looking legs. The Coop often >>>>>> chases prey on foot, whereas the Sharpie rarely does, so the >> difference >>>>>> in the evolution of leg size actually has a purpose. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jane >>>>>> (Shoreham) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 10/15/2018 7:35 AM, zach schwartz-weinstein wrote: >>>>>>> Sharpie, with the messier reddish streaking, bug-eyed appearance, >> small >>>>>>> head and bill, and even-length tail feathers. Nice photos. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 7:33 AM Veer Frost < >>>>>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gorgeous, thank you, hope someone will know.Veer Frost, Passumpsic >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On October 14, 2018 at 9:55 PM, "cynthia crawford" wrote:Got some >>>>>>>> pretty good pictures- pretty sure this is a Cooper's. Opinions >>>>>>>> welcome: >>>>>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/33836164@N03/albums/72157700879431161 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cynthia Crawford >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Creature Kinships and Natural Affinities* >>>>>>>> Animal and Nature Paintings, Portraits and Prints >>>>>>>> NEW WEB SITE: >>>>>>>> www.creaturekinships.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> www.creaturekinships.com >>>>>>>> MORE PHOTOS and ARTWORK: http://pbase.com/creaturekinships >>>>>>>> EVEN MORE PHOTOS: https://www.flickr.com/photos/33836164@N03/ >>>>>>>> Castle & Court Music for Harp: >>>>>>>> http://galleries.creaturekinships.com/?page_id=59 >>>>>>>> BLOG: http://creature-kinships.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>>> >>>>> Thanks Zach and Jane- appreciate your thoughts. I noticed the thin >> legs/feet especially, but felt the head was a bit large. Perhaps because of >> the extended neck photo. I wasn't aware of the "bug-eyed" feature for >> Sharpies, so that's helpful. I think I will report it as a sharpie and see >> if I get corrected by the ebird "police". ;). >>>>> >>> Gotcha, Jane. Will report id the "ebird police" come after me. ;). >> Meanwhile, here's a very sure Cooper's Hawk: >> https:[log in to unmask] I >> think the tail tells all here...or maybe it's a tall tail? ;) >>> >>