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Yes, I am satisfied. I take no position on mandatory universal vaccination
here, which is a more complicated issue.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 2:12 PM David Barouh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> So Phil, are you satisfied that the seeming chronological link of rising
> autism rates and ever more vaccinations is coincidental? And assuming
> there's really no established link, is this a reason to mandate universal
> vaccination?
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2019, at 2:54 PM, Phil Gasper wrote:
>
> Yes, I believe the studies have been discredited. Like everyone on this
> list, I'm well aware of the commercial pressures on research, but numerous
> meta studies conducterd by people with no links to the pharmaceutical
> industry and involving hundreds of thousands of people convinced me. You
> always have to look at the actual details.
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 1:43 PM David Barouh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
> I suspect that rising autism rates are at least *suggestive* of a causal
> link. There's certainly a chronological link, dating back at least to the
> time that vaccine makers gained their immunity from liability for people
> damaged by vaccines and the consequent introduction of vaccines for ever
> more diseases. Can we really believe that studies establishing such a link
> have supposedly been "discredited," given the commercial bent of so much
> science these days, and given the commercial milieu in which all this is
> happening.
>
> Much like climate science, the basic premise of which I'm not questioning,
> but which nonetheless has been hopeless politicized to the point that we
> are getting exact timeframes for disaster that spans a decade or *less, *and
> on the other hand, complete denial of its existence*, *are we sure that
> climate science really that advanced? I'm reminded of the Friedman Units,
> where Journalist Thomas Friedman, a big booster of the 2003 invasion of
> Iraq would every six months or so comment on that war's progress by saying
> that the US had "six months to get it right."
>
> The issue is of the government mandating vaccination, i.e. forcing people
> to undergo a medical procedure violating several of the body's natural
> defenses, which seems to be a violation of the Fourth, Fifth and probably
> the Eighth and Ninth, Amendments guaranteeing that people are "secure in
> their persons," not "deprived of life or liberty," do not have "cruel and
> unusual punishments inflicted," and are not denied rights "not specifically
> enumerated." Can anyone deny that vaccines have harmed at least *some*
> people? Which means that some people can be harmed, so that forcing people
> to partake in a sort of Russian Roulette simply cannot be legal or
> constitutional.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2019, at 1:18 PM, Mitchel Cohen wrote:
>
> I guess it depends, David, on how one defines "robust".  :-)
>
> Mitchel
>
> At 11:26 AM 3/11/2019, you wrote:
>
> Mitchel makes a good point with the example of fluoridation, but is there
> really robust evidence of a causal link between some vaccines and autism?
>
> On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 11:23 AM Mitchel Cohen <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Thanks for these important clarifications as to the AAPS, to Steve and
> Sigrid. And thanks to Maggie for fraising this issue. Steve and Sigrid
> rightly critique only one of Maggie Zhou's links. And even there, there is
> indeed a causal relationship between SOME vaccines, containing particular
> adjuvants, to autism -- there are of course other so-called "environmental"
> (meaning pollutant) causes of autism as well.
> Just because the proponent of an issue may be a rightwing organization
> does not make them wrong about the issue -- although it's usually for the
> wrong reasons that they're right. Take for instance the John Birch
> Society's longstanding opposition to fluoride in drinking water -- which
> has been exposed by some independent researchers as a waste product of the
> aluminum industry in the late 1940s and 1950s, not something the John Birch
> Society would touch in their explanations. (The JBS saw fluoridation as a
> "Communist plot" by the government, and not as an effluent of the very
> capitalism that they were endorsing.)
> Mitchel
>
>
> At 08:45 AM 3/11/2019, Steve Nadel wrote:
>
> Thanks Sigrid.  Many people will have my initial reaction to the name,
> that it is a "professional" society, i.e. science based,   Here is an
> excerpt from the Wikipedia entry on AAPS which further elaborates Sigrid's
> points
> The association is generally recognized as politically conservative
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism_in_the_United_States> or
> ultra-conservative <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right>, and its
> publication advocates a range of scientifically discredited hypotheses,
> including the belief that HIV does not cause AIDS
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS_denialism>, that being gay reduces
> life expectancy, that there is a link between abortion and breast cancer
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion-breast_cancer_hypothesis>, and
> that there is a causal relationship between vaccines and autism
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_autism#Vaccines>.
>
> They oppose aboriton, medicare/medicaid and all forms  of governmental
> health assistance. Here is a link to the Wikipedia article
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons>
>
> On Mar 11, 2019, at 2:44 AM, Sigrid Schmalzer <[log in to unmask] >
> wrote:
> Hi. The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons also opposes the
> Affordable Care Act and socialized medicine more generally. My sense is
> that the anti-vaxx movement is leaping on this endorsement because the AAPS
> because it has the appearance of medical authority. Let's be more critical.
> Sigrid
> On 3/10/19 7:41 PM, Maggie Zhou wrote:
>
> There was a congressional hearing last week on the use of force to
> vaccinate (taking away exemptions).
>
> https://ppjg.me/2019/03/05/hearing-on-the-use-of-force-to-vaccinate-taking-place-now/
> Two medical associations have come out with statements against mandatory
> vaccinations in the past few days, the Association of American Physicians
> and Surgeons, and Physicians for Informed Consent.
>
> https://ppjg.me/2019/03/05/medical-doctors-across-the-u-s-speak-out-against-mandatory-vaccination-laws/
> Here's a well referenced and concise white paper on the evidence & science
> that support vaccine exemptions.  For those who think vaccination is
> supported by science, this is a must read.  (I've also sent other links to
> evidence before, so this adds to that.)
>
> https://icandecide.org/white-papers/The-Evidence-Science-Support-Vaccine-Exemptions.pdf
> Meanwhile, governments are doubling down on forced vaccinations.
> ABC News is promoting that teens should defy their anti-vaxxer parents'
> judgement and choose to vaccinate themselves.
>
> https://abc7chicago.com/health/ohio-teen-defies-anti-vaccine-mom-gets-his-shots/5134211/
> "in at least 7 states a relatively new legal concept called the mature
> minor doctrine allows teens to petition to make their own medical decision."
> Australian government decided to reduce welfare payments for unvaccinated
> children, to force poor families to vaccinate:
>
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-13/vaccinations-no-jab-no-pay-takes-effect/10169684
> Maggie
>
> --
> Sigrid Schmalzer
> Professor, History Department
> University of Massachusetts Amherst
> Website: http://sigridschmalzer.org
>
> Proud member of the Massachusetts Society of Professors (MSP/MTA/NEA), the
> union representing faculty and librarians at UMass Amherst, and supporting
> public education and labor movements everywhere: umassmsp.org
> Red Revolution, Green Revolution: Scientific Farming in Socialist China
> <http://www.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/R/bo22541357.html>
> (University of Chicago Press, 2016)
>
> Science for the People: Documents from America's Movement of Radical
> Scientists <https://www.umass.edu/umpress/title/science-people>
> (University of Massachusetts Press, 2018)
>
> Moth and Wasp, Soil and Ocean: Remembering Chinese Scientist Pu Zhelong's
> Work for Sustainable Farming
> <https://tilburyhouse.com/book/education-and-teaching/by-subject/multicultural/moth-and-wasp-soil-and-ocean/>
> (Tilbury House, 2018) -- picture book
>
> The <https://www.thepoliticsofpesticides.com/> Fight Against Monsanto's
> Roundup: The Politics of Pesticides
> <https://www.thepoliticsofpesticides.com/> (SkyHorse, 2019), authored by
> Mitchel Cohen, is now available at bookstores everywhere! Please click on
> link to learn more.
>
>
>