Yes, I am satisfied. I take no position on mandatory universal vaccination here, which is a more complicated issue.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 2:12 PM David Barouh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
So Phil, are you satisfied that the seeming chronological link of rising autism rates and ever more vaccinations is coincidental? And assuming there's really no established link, is this a reason to mandate universal vaccination?

On Mon, Mar 11, 2019, at 2:54 PM, Phil Gasper wrote:
Yes, I believe the studies have been discredited. Like everyone on this list, I'm well aware of the commercial pressures on research, but numerous meta studies conducterd by people with no links to the pharmaceutical industry and involving hundreds of thousands of people convinced me. You always have to look at the actual details.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 1:43 PM David Barouh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

I suspect that rising autism rates are at least suggestive of a causal link. There's certainly a chronological link, dating back at least to the time that vaccine makers gained their immunity from liability for people damaged by vaccines and the consequent introduction of vaccines for ever more diseases. Can we really believe that studies establishing such a link have supposedly been "discredited," given the commercial bent of so much science these days, and given the commercial milieu in which all this is happening.

Much like climate science, the basic premise of which I'm not questioning, but which nonetheless has been hopeless politicized to the point that we are getting exact timeframes for disaster that spans a decade or less, and on the other hand, complete denial of its existenceare we sure that climate science really that advanced? I'm reminded of the Friedman Units, where Journalist Thomas Friedman, a big booster of the 2003 invasion of Iraq would every six months or so comment on that war's progress by saying that the US had "six months to get it right." 

The issue is of the government mandating vaccination, i.e. forcing people to undergo a medical procedure violating several of the body's natural defenses, which seems to be a violation of the Fourth, Fifth and probably the Eighth and Ninth, Amendments guaranteeing that people are "secure in their persons," not "deprived of life or liberty," do not have "cruel and unusual punishments inflicted," and are not denied rights "not specifically enumerated." Can anyone deny that vaccines have harmed at least some people? Which means that some people can be harmed, so that forcing people to partake in a sort of Russian Roulette simply cannot be legal or constitutional.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2019, at 1:18 PM, Mitchel Cohen wrote:
I guess it depends, David, on how one defines "robust".  :-)


At 11:26 AM 3/11/2019, you wrote:

Mitchel makes a good point with the example of fluoridation, but is there really robust evidence of a causal link between some vaccines and autism?

On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 11:23 AM Mitchel Cohen < [log in to unmask]> wrote:

Thanks for these important clarifications as to the AAPS, to Steve and Sigrid. And thanks to Maggie for fraising this issue. Steve and Sigrid rightly critique only one of Maggie Zhou's links. And even there, there is indeed a causal relationship between SOME vaccines, containing particular adjuvants, to autism -- there are of course other so-called "environmental" (meaning pollutant) causes of autism as well.
Just because the proponent of an issue may be a rightwing organization does not make them wrong about the issue -- although it's usually for the wrong reasons that they're right. Take for instance the John Birch Society's longstanding opposition to fluoride in drinking water -- which has been exposed by some independent researchers as a waste product of the aluminum industry in the late 1940s and 1950s, not something the John Birch Society would touch in their explanations. (The JBS saw fluoridation as a "Communist plot" by the government, and not as an effluent of the very capitalism that they were endorsing.)

At 08:45 AM 3/11/2019, Steve Nadel wrote:

Thanks Sigrid.  Many people will have my initial reaction to the name, that it is a "professional" society, i.e. science based,   Here is an excerpt from the Wikipedia entry on AAPS which further elaborates Sigrid's points
The association is generally recognized as politically conservative or ultra-conservative, and its publication advocates a range of scientifically discredited hypotheses, including the belief that HIV does not cause AIDS, that being gay reduces life expectancy, that there is a link between abortion and breast cancer, and that there is a causal relationship between vaccines and autism.

They oppose aboriton, medicare/medicaid and all forms  of governmental health assistance. Here is a link to the Wikipedia article

On Mar 11, 2019, at 2:44 AM, Sigrid Schmalzer <[log in to unmask] > wrote:
Hi. The Association of American Physicians and Surgeons also opposes the Affordable Care Act and socialized medicine more generally. My sense is that the anti-vaxx movement is leaping on this endorsement because the AAPS because it has the appearance of medical authority. Let's be more critical.
On 3/10/19 7:41 PM, Maggie Zhou wrote:

There was a congressional hearing last week on the use of force to vaccinate (taking away exemptions).
Two medical associations have come out with statements against mandatory vaccinations in the past few days, the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, and Physicians for Informed Consent.
Here's a well referenced and concise white paper on the evidence & science that support vaccine exemptions.  For those who think vaccination is supported by science, this is a must read.  (I've also sent other links to evidence before, so this adds to that.)
Meanwhile, governments are doubling down on forced vaccinations.
ABC News is promoting that teens should defy their anti-vaxxer parents' judgement and choose to vaccinate themselves.
"in at least 7 states a relatively new legal concept called the mature minor doctrine allows teens to petition to make their own medical decision."
Australian government decided to reduce welfare payments for unvaccinated children, to force poor families to vaccinate:
Sigrid Schmalzer
Professor, History Department
University of Massachusetts Amherst

Proud member of the Massachusetts Society of Professors (MSP/MTA/NEA), the union representing faculty and librarians at UMass Amherst, and supporting public education and labor movements everywhere:

Moth and Wasp, Soil and Ocean: Remembering Chinese Scientist Pu Zhelong's Work for Sustainable Farming (Tilbury House, 2018) -- picture book
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