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Carol has earned our respect, and this is no whit diminished if it 
saddens her to see some of the rest of us going (in her view) haywire.  
I don't know you and have no background leading me to trust you as I do 
Carol and Kamran and Claudia, but if you consider yourself a member of 
our group YOU DESERVE MY RESPECT TOO and have a right to demand it.  It 
might be diminished if you lay on the nastiness; but I am not a 
moderator of the list.  For you to point out bellicose positions of 
Hillary Clinton's, or murderous drone tactics by Barack Obama, is 
appropriate and welcome, also relevant to the question of big-party 
electoral politics.  Seeing you're among friends, you may want to sound 
friendlier.  Even among the old-timers there are wide differences of 
opinion.

Chandler


On 2019-07-05 2:12 p.m., David Barouh wrote:
> I should point out that my "bad-mouthing," as you call it, was 
> directed at HRC -- and not even at HRC so much as at her, IMO, 
> unhinged promise to institute a no-fly zone over Syrian air space. 
> Secondly, I suspect you missed the sub-text of Carol's comments about 
> how "sad" my HRC comment made her (but nothing about HRC's Syria 
> position). And the one about my possibly voting for Trump (I'd thought 
> I'd suggested just the opposite) "breaking her heart." It seems ironic 
> that on "Science for the People," instead of some rational discourse 
> and exchange of positions we get little more than emotional blackmail 
> justified based on veteran status.
>
> BTW, does my relative newcomer status make me suspect? Is more than my 
> name required to be a member of this list? I don't know anything about 
> any of you all other than your names. And I'm still shaky on the 
> list's protocols.
>
> David Barouh
>
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2019, at 12:36 PM, Chandler Davis wrote:
>> Kamran is right, and your point is also valid, Claudia: we're not 
>> about electoral politics in any one country, even in quite a large 
>> one.  But Carol Axelrod is a long-time staunch activist in SftP, and 
>> if I find myself disagreeing with her about Hillary Clinton, as it 
>> seems I may, I will make it the occasion for comradely debate, not 
>> scornful bad-mouthing such as she  is getting from Barouh (whoever he 
>> may be).
>>
>> Chandler
>>
>>
>> On 2019-07-05 2:23 a.m., Claudia Pine wrote:
>>> Carol:  As Kamran says, SftP list is not a place for political party 
>>> postings.
>>>
>>> In addition, you may not realize that the SftP list is 
>>> international, and as such USian politics are not what many 
>>> non-USian members want or expect.
>>>
>>> Suggesting that people can just delete is inappropriate: it is for 
>>> posters to consider the appropriateness of what they post, before 
>>> they post.
>>>
>>> I appreciate your sincerity and sense of urgency, Carol - in many 
>>> ways I share it! - but I would strongly urge you not post "Force 
>>> Mutiplier" or other partisan political material to the Science for 
>>> the People list-serv.
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Claudia Pine
>>> a list moderator
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 8:47 PM Kamran Nayeri 
>>> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Carol:
>>>
>>>     Have you joined this list recently? How has the Force Multiplier
>>>     <https://actionnetwork.org/groups/force-multiplier> been allowed
>>>     to post to this list?
>>>
>>>     May be an officer of SftP can address this question.
>>>
>>>     At any rate, in my half doze years of being on this list it is
>>>     the first time I see a political party brings its campaign to
>>>     this list.  If this be accepted how would SftP limit other
>>>     political parties to join in--including Republicans without
>>>     being drawn into partisan politics. If that happens, it would be
>>>     the end of SftP because so far it has been an anti-capitalist,
>>>     socialist voice with various tendencies reflected in its
>>>     deliberation but never a partisan group especially in the
>>>     electoral arena.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 5:59 PM Carol Axelrod
>>>     <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         Trump is a lot worse than obnoxious. If most people on this
>>>         list don't want to hear from Force Multiplier any more I'd
>>>         hope they'd let me know. It sounds like you two don't.
>>>         It's very easy to delete my emails if you'd prefer.
>>>         But it makes me sad that you really believe HRC would have
>>>         been as bad as Trump. You almost sound like you'd vote for
>>>         him which breaks my heart.
>>>
>>>
>>>         forcemultiplierma.org <http://forcemultiplierma.org>
>>>         YOU X ME = DEMOCRACY
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 4:28 PM David Barouh
>>>         <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>>>
>>>             It's always the same BS. One candidate is always better
>>>             than the other. Trouble is sometimes the "better" choice
>>>             surprises you. Clinton spent his entire eight years
>>>             bombing and starving Iraq. Obama bombed and invaded how
>>>             many countries? And it was the same with Bush Jr. People
>>>             now say that if Gore had been president, "there wouldn't
>>>             have been Iraq!" Yet more bullshit. This article makes a
>>>             definitive case that Gore indeed would have invaded
>>>             Iraq:
>>>             https://www.counterpunch.org/2016/08/19/liberal-myths-would-al-gore-have-invaded-iraq/
>>>
>>>             Had HRC won the election instead of Trump, we may
>>>             already have had American jets trying to enforce her
>>>             insane "no fly zone" over Syria and confronting Russian
>>>             planes, and maybe even have had a nuclear war.
>>>
>>>             The Dimwit Democrats are the ones currently talking up
>>>             war. Trump is obnoxious, but we're not currently in a
>>>             full-fledged war. We're refueling Saudi planes in their
>>>             bombing runs, but that started under Obama, not Trump.
>>>             This is what voting for the two-party system /always/
>>>             brings us.
>>>
>>>             You're dreaming if you think there's a significant
>>>             change to be had with one or the other of the two
>>>             corporate parties.
>>>
>>>
>>>             On Thu, Jul 4, 2019, at 2:45 PM, Carol Axelrod wrote:
>>>>             I'm hoping that those that are that disillusioned may
>>>>             understand that this time if we don't understand the
>>>>             difference between Republicans and Democrats we're all
>>>>             toast. I think there are many thoughtful folks who
>>>>             agree that our system is not working but who know that
>>>>             we are not in a position to change it now and our very
>>>>             lives depend on turning Washington blue. And that
>>>>             applies not only to those of us educated, privileged
>>>>             types, but mainly the rest of the country and the
>>>>             world. We don't have the luxury of being politically
>>>>             pure at this moment. IMHO.
>>>>
>>>>             forcemultiplierma.org <http://forcemultiplierma.org>
>>>>             YOU X ME = DEMOCRACY
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>             On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 1:42 PM Kamran Nayeri
>>>>             <[log in to unmask]
>>>>             <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>                 But what if some of us think the problem with the
>>>>                 U.S. politics is the two-party system and that the
>>>>                 Democratic Party is as much an imperialist party as
>>>>                 the Republican party? Should this list be turned
>>>>                 into one supporting Democrats in the coming elections?
>>>>
>>>>                 On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 9:22 AM Carol Axelrod
>>>>                 <[log in to unmask]
>>>>                 <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>                     ...the maniac in Washington is spending our
>>>>                     money to display the size of his weapons. And
>>>>                     he's plotting to circumvent the SUPREME COURT
>>>>                     so that the census questionnaire can be another
>>>>                     instrument of voter suppression. And the
>>>>                     immigrants at the border are jammed into what
>>>>                     amounts to stationary cattle cars. And, and,
>>>>                     and...
>>>>
>>>>                     So I'm not taking this week off. Trump and his
>>>>                     gang must be removed from office in November
>>>>                     2020.  The best way we can do that is to
>>>>                     *empower voters* of color, young people, women,
>>>>                     LBGTQ communities, and the rest of us who are
>>>>                     most vulnerable.
>>>>
>>>>                     Force Multiplier
>>>>                     <https://www.forcemultiplierma.org/fm-get-out-the-vote>
>>>>                     is identifying grassroots organizations that
>>>>                     are working to fight voter suppression in
>>>>                      key states. As usual, _w__e've done the
>>>>                     research so you don't have to. _
>>>>
>>>>                     When turnout is high, Democrats win!
>>>>                     No one knows that as well as the Republicans.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                     Click here
>>>>                     <https://www.forcemultiplierma.org/fm-get-out-the-vote>
>>>>                     for lots of information about the seven
>>>>                     organizations on our slate -- in North
>>>>                     Carolina, Florida and Michigan -- all key
>>>>                     states in the 2020 elections.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                     So please, in honor of the 4th of July, donate
>>>>                     <https://secure.actblue.com/donate/veslate?refcode=CA4thJuly>to
>>>>                     save our country and the rest of the world.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                     Donate, and then go out and enjoy your 4th. My
>>>>                     chicken wings are marinating as we speak.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                     With love,
>>>>                     Carol
>>>>
>>>>                     forcemultiplierma.org
>>>>                     <http://forcemultiplierma.org>
>>>>                     YOU X ME = DEMOCRACY
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                 -- 
>>>>                 Kamran Nayeri
>>>>
>>>
>>>             Liberty without socialism is privileged and unjust;
>>>             socialism without liberty is brutal and tyrannical.
>>>             Opinion without study is ignorant and destructive; study
>>>             without opinion is empty and mercenary.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     --
>>>
>>>     Kamran Nayeri
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Justice will not be served untilthose who are unaffected are as 
>>> outraged as those who are 
>>> <http://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/opa/press-releases/attachments/2015/03/04/ferguson_police_department_report.pdf>. 
>>> ― Benjamin Franklin
>>>
>>> The day is coming when a single carrot, freshly observed, will set 
>>> off a revolution.  -- Paul Cezanne
>>>
>>> Nihil de nobis, sine nobis: Nothing about us, without us! 
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_About_Us_Without_Us>
>>
>>
>
> Liberty without socialism is privileged and unjust; socialism without 
> liberty is brutal and tyrannical. Opinion without study is ignorant 
> and destructive; study without opinion is empty and mercenary.
>