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Carol has earned our respect, and this is no whit diminished if it saddens her to see some of the rest of us going (in her view) haywire.  I don't know you and have no background leading me to trust you as I do Carol and Kamran and Claudia, but if you consider yourself a member of our group YOU DESERVE MY RESPECT TOO and have a right to demand it.  It might be diminished if you lay on the nastiness; but I am not a moderator of the list.  For you to point out bellicose positions of Hillary Clinton's, or murderous drone tactics by Barack Obama, is appropriate and welcome, also relevant to the question of big-party electoral politics.  Seeing you're among friends, you may want to sound friendlier.  Even among the old-timers there are wide differences of opinion.

Chandler


On 2019-07-05 2:12 p.m., David Barouh wrote:
[log in to unmask]">
I should point out that my "bad-mouthing," as you call it, was directed at HRC -- and not even at HRC so much as at her, IMO, unhinged promise to institute a no-fly zone over Syrian air space. Secondly, I suspect you missed the sub-text of Carol's comments about how "sad" my HRC comment made her (but nothing about HRC's Syria position). And the one about my possibly voting for Trump (I'd thought I'd suggested just the opposite) "breaking her heart." It seems ironic that on "Science for the People," instead of some rational discourse and exchange of positions we get little more than emotional blackmail justified based on veteran status.

BTW, does my relative newcomer status make me suspect? Is more than my name required to be a member of this list? I don't know anything about any of you all other than your names. And I'm still shaky on the list's protocols. 

David Barouh

On Fri, Jul 5, 2019, at 12:36 PM, Chandler Davis wrote:
Kamran is right, and your point is also valid, Claudia: we're not about electoral politics in any one country, even in quite a large one.  But Carol Axelrod is a long-time staunch activist in SftP, and if I find myself disagreeing with her about Hillary Clinton, as it seems I may, I will make it the occasion for comradely debate, not scornful bad-mouthing such as she  is getting from Barouh (whoever he may be).

Chandler


On 2019-07-05 2:23 a.m., Claudia Pine wrote:
[log in to unmask]" type="cite">
Carol:  As Kamran says, SftP list is not a place for political party postings.  

In addition, you may not realize that the SftP list is international, and as such USian politics are not what many non-USian members want or expect. 

Suggesting that people can just delete is inappropriate: it is for posters to consider the appropriateness of what they post, before they post. 

I appreciate your sincerity and sense of urgency, Carol - in many ways I share it! - but I would strongly urge you not post "Force Mutiplier" or other partisan political material to the Science for the People list-serv.

Thank you,
Claudia Pine
a list moderator 

On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 8:47 PM Kamran Nayeri <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Carol:

Have you joined this list recently? How has the Force Multiplier been allowed to post to this list?

May be an officer of SftP can address this question. 

At any rate, in my half doze years of being on this list it is the first time I see a political party brings its campaign to this list.  If this be accepted how would SftP limit other political parties to join in--including Republicans without being drawn into partisan politics. If that happens, it would be the end of SftP because so far it has been an anti-capitalist, socialist voice with various tendencies reflected in its deliberation but never a partisan group especially in the electoral arena.







On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 5:59 PM Carol Axelrod <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Trump is a lot worse than obnoxious. If most people on this list don't want to hear from Force Multiplier any more I'd hope they'd let me know. It sounds like you two don't. 
It's very easy to delete my emails if you'd prefer.
But it makes me sad that you really believe HRC would have been as bad as Trump. You almost sound like you'd vote for him which breaks my heart.


YOU X ME = DEMOCRACY




On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 4:28 PM David Barouh <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
It's always the same BS. One candidate is always better than the other. Trouble is sometimes the "better" choice surprises you. Clinton spent his entire eight years bombing and starving Iraq. Obama bombed and invaded how many countries? And it was the same with Bush Jr. People now say that if Gore had been president, "there wouldn't have been Iraq!" Yet more bullshit. This article makes a definitive case that Gore indeed would have invaded Iraq: https://www.counterpunch.org/2016/08/19/liberal-myths-would-al-gore-have-invaded-iraq/

Had HRC won the election instead of Trump, we may already have had American jets trying to enforce her insane "no fly zone" over Syria and confronting Russian planes, and maybe even have had a nuclear war.
 
The Dimwit Democrats are the ones currently talking up war. Trump is obnoxious, but we're not currently in a full-fledged war. We're refueling Saudi planes in their bombing runs, but that started under Obama, not Trump. This is what voting for the two-party system always brings us.

You're dreaming if you think there's a significant change to be had with one or the other of the two corporate parties. 


On Thu, Jul 4, 2019, at 2:45 PM, Carol Axelrod wrote:
I'm hoping that those that are that disillusioned may understand that this time if we don't understand the difference between Republicans and Democrats we're all toast. I think there are many thoughtful folks who agree that our system is not working but who know that we are not in a position to change it now and our very lives depend on turning Washington blue. And that applies not only to those of us educated, privileged types, but mainly the rest of the country and the world. We don't have the luxury of being politically pure at this moment. IMHO.

YOU X ME = DEMOCRACY



On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 1:42 PM Kamran Nayeri <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
But what if some of us think the problem with the U.S. politics is the two-party system and that the Democratic Party is as much an imperialist party as the Republican party? Should this list be turned into one supporting Democrats in the coming elections?

On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 9:22 AM Carol Axelrod <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
...the maniac in Washington is spending our money to display the size of his weapons. And he's plotting to circumvent the SUPREME COURT so that the census questionnaire can be another instrument of voter suppression. And the immigrants at the border are jammed into what amounts to stationary cattle cars. And, and, and... 

So I'm not taking this week off. Trump and his gang must be removed from office in November 2020.  The best way we can do that is to empower voters of color, young people, women, LBGTQ communities, and the rest of us who are most vulnerable.

Force Multiplier is identifying grassroots organizations that are working to fight voter suppression in
 key states. As usual, we've done the research so you don't have to. 

 When turnout is high, Democrats win!
No one knows that as well as the Republicans.


Click here for lots of information about the seven organizations on our slate -- in North Carolina, Florida and Michigan -- all key states in the 2020 elections. 



So please, in honor of the 4th of July, donate to save our country and the rest of the world.


Donate, and then go out and enjoy your 4th. My chicken wings are marinating as we speak.


With love,
Carol

YOU X ME = DEMOCRACY




--
Kamran Nayeri

Liberty without socialism is privileged and unjust; socialism without liberty is brutal and tyrannical. Opinion without study is ignorant and destructive; study without opinion is empty and mercenary.



--

Kamran Nayeri


--

Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as outraged as those who are. ― Benjamin Franklin

The day is coming when a single carrot, freshly observed, will set off a revolution.  -- Paul Cezanne

Nihil de nobis, sine nobis:  Nothing about us, without us! 



Liberty without socialism is privileged and unjust; socialism without liberty is brutal and tyrannical. Opinion without study is ignorant and destructive; study without opinion is empty and mercenary.