Hi Brad, Go to www.pitt.edu/~pnlcity, its the best I can do with the access that's either donated or paid for out of my own pocket. Of course you could visit my community and read our 2000+ newsletter "the Block Watch Review", I produce that too, in between user classes, working with gangs, tutoring, etc. Hey just come and see. PA liked it, they gave my wife a Govonor's award for it. Of course Pittsburgh couldn't bother to recognize that. Hell, all the other communities had Mayors, Police Chiefs and the such in Harrisburgh for their winners, not good ol' Pittsburgh. In fact they borrowed her awards so the councilman could give them back to her. Oh yeah, there's a big difference between user and developer, maybe you oaught to explore it. In case you haven't noticed, I want to be a developer. Hey, why don't you go read my article in the Healthy Cities reasearch publication, it explains the Skill Cell Theory and Methodology Paradigm I presented all over the country and whose parts are being used (stolen without credit given!) fairly often now. I just happened to throw the largest Healthy Cities visioning ever held in the world (give Treavor Hancock in Toronto a call for conformation, he started the whole movement). The city didn't acknowledge that either? (which really showed how much they cared and really helped motivate other communities to action). The point is, up yours Brad. I talk to people who sound like you everyday. They don't have a clue where it all came from or where its's going and the first time they visit a "at-risk" community after dark they dump in their pants. I gave up a very lucurative financial business because I thought maybe I could make a contribution. Well we did what the funders said (physically and virtually), we had site visits (does Heinz count as a ligitamate organization) which met all their expectations and more. You know what, they are still trying to arrange the July "strategic planning meeting". They are still talking. So Brad, come and visit. I'll put you up for a few nights and give you some work to do. Theirs always plenty around. By the way, you'll have to volunteer, it seems I'm to aggressive in my approach, to forward thinking to think in my use of multimedia, much to attached to all that technology out their. I've been told I "frighten people by my energy", or education, or aggressiveness, or ability to learn all those things you talk about on my own and, of course, my nieve belief that given a decent teacher and some time, most individuals can learn most anything. But what is my opinion when it flys in the face of such esteemed opinions such as your? After all, Peter's Principles pretty much explains the results of extreme competence in the face of the mean. Phil The only difference between qualitative and quantitative information is volume.